G2a origins: what to believe?

If your remember my thread about metal-mining and stockbreeding back in February, I was the one who put forth the idea that G2a3b1 could have been spread by the Indo-Europeans, along with R1b1b2.

To answer your question, I think that G2a3b1 was always a minority within the Indo-European speakers, which is why it remained this way. I think that the original Indo-European speakers were either R1b1b or R1a1a, or both, while G2a represented speakers of neighbouring Caucasian languages.

The way I imagine it is that some G2a3 left the Caucasus and Anatolia and spread agriculture and stockbreeding to southern Europe. On their way they merged with R1b1b peoples from northern Anatolia or from the north of the Caucasus, who then moved north to the Pontic steppes with cattle, sheep and some knowledge of agriculture. There they created a new patriarchal nomadic culture, that was taken over by their forest-steppe neighbours, the R1a1a people. Due to their nomadic nature, one common language spread all over the Eurasian steppe, Proto-Indo-European.

The south-western group, living on the shores of the Black Sea, was composed mostly of R1b1b2 people with a G2a3 and R1a1a minority (absorbed neighbours). This group was the fore-runner of the Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European languages. After acquiring horses from their R1a1a neighbours from the Volga-Ural region, they progressively left the Dnieper-Don region and moved towards the Danube valley. There they encountered fierce resistance from the well-established farming communities descending from the Linear Pottery Culture. So they pushed forward in search of less densely populated land. They found it in western and northern Europe, where agriculture was more rudimentary, populations less dense, and societies less technologically advanced. This is how R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1 jumped from the Black Sea region to Western Europe.

The people that already lived in Western Europe belonged to haplogroups I1, I2a, I2b, the descendants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but also E1b1b, T and J2 people who came during the Neolithic through the Danube basin and island-hopping their way around the Mediterranean. I think that it is possible that these E1b1b, T and J2 people also included some G2a people in their southern route (possibly from a later, independent migration). That's why I am open to the possibility of two different sources for G2a in Europe; one Neolithic and one Indo-European.

I noticed that there were a few G2a3b1 in European Russia, in addition to India. The nomadic Indo-European steppe culture being so mobile by nature, it would make sense that some people from the south-western group (R1b1b2 + G2a3b1) ended up in the north-eastern one (R1a1a), before this latter conquered Central and South Asia. This would explain why R1b1b2 and G2a3b1 are small minorities in Russia, and even more in Central and South Asia. Likewise, R1a1a people would have joined the south-western group, explaining why there is a small percentage of R1a1a in all predominantly R1b1b2a1 regions in Western Europe.

It is because of this close connections between these three Indo-European haplogroups that I listed them side by side in my table of Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies.

OK Thank you this is interesting .
 
Since, I am still not allowed to use URLs, imagine here images that Maciamo has posted...

It's hard to see correlation between spread of G2a and of R1b-U152...perhaps with idea that carriers of R1b-U152 came from Caucasus where they assimilated some G2a and than came via Asia minor, one can get fuzzy idea of R1b-U152 spreading it over Europe... but while this may distantly look as good theory for low percentage areas it certainly doesnot explain peaks... since those do not correlate at all with peaks of R1b-U152
 
The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures
I do not think it has anything to do with proto-Celtic and Celtic Hallstaat & La Tenne cultures... it is rather naive approach to take genetic distribution of frequencies of some haplogroup as it is today, and to try to match it to a population that has inhabited area thousands years ago.... that assumes there are no major movement of people and no wars...
but history teach us something different....
if one wants to make conclusions about distant past, he/she should better use variance of the haplogroup... because it remains present longer...even after the carriers of the group has mostly left the area...
 
But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.
why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
how could they settle there... well, why not?
trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...
 
why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
how could they settle there... well, why not?
trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...

Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?
 
Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?
finally, I have managed to collect enough posts (10) to be able to answer this question fairly...
Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.
Haplogroup_G2a.gif

It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tene and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.
U152-Myres.jpg
as I said It's hard to see correlation there...it doesnot even explain low percentage areas, and it certainly does not explain the peaks...
peaks of G2a they are easily explained by the spread of some genetically quite recent historical populations ...
keep in mind that I do not say those populations were only G2a, but rather that G2a was strong in them...

Etruscans (who called themselves Raseni) directly explain the peak in Italy and partly the one in Sardinia...

493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png


Confronted with expansion of more warlike tribes, Etruscans have eventually migrated northwards into Alps to region of Raetia (those who remained were assimilated by Celts, Romans and others and have eventually moved south during the barbaric incursions into Roman empire including Gotic ones... which places current distribution of G2a in Italy somewhat more south than Etruscans were... but such rather small movements of populations in front of very threatening invaders are very common point...)..

confirmation for etruscan origin of Raetians one finds in history, language and genetics... linguistically, raetic language is considered to origin from etruscan... genetically proof is spread of G2a in areas of both Etruscan and Raetian settlements... historically proof is the following:
In his Natural History (1st century AD), Pliny wrote about Alpine peoples:
“ adjoining these (the Noricans) are the Raeti and Vindelici. All are divided into a number of states.[1] The Raeti are believed to be people of Tuscan race[2] driven out by the Gauls; their leader was named Raetus.[3]

here is Raetia province of Roman empire..

800px-RomanEmpire_117.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetian

thus peak in Alps is also explained with Etruscans...
and not with Hallstat-Latenne culture that yielded Celts who in fact were the reason number one for Etruscans to seek refuge in Alps...
Etruscans came to Europe via Asia minor...

peak in Greece is probably related to ancient Macedonians...
let me explain... Alexandar Macedonian did lot of conquest for very little time... the only way one small country as was ancient Macedonia could subjugate large areas as the ones of Iranian people, is in fact that he didnot wage much war on them..he was of same blood..iranian... so he came there as a king who wants to unite iranians... only that can explain his incredibly fast military conquest...

talking about Iranian origin of G2a leads us to last step in colouring map of Europe with distribution of G2a... this last step are Sarmatian (thus iranian ) tribe Alans... Descendents of Alans still live in Caucasus..their name is Ossetians.. they speak iranic language... their dominant haplogroup is G2a...
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf
this is how Alans moved through Europe in very zig-zag pattern:
Alani_map.jpg

together with Suebes and Vandals they have conquered Iberian peninsula...
300px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG

if you compare it with the distributions of G2a you will notice that Alans settlements on sides left significant genetic imprint while the middle part is fairly gone...this is quite normal since arriving Visigoths went through centrum pushing Alans and Vandals southwards into northern Africa... from there they conquered and settled Sardinia as you can see on this map
761px-Europe_526.jpg
 
Haplogroup_G2a.gif

As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..
800px-Hittite_Kingdom.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a

The island was part of the Hittite empire during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.[31]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
this peak is related to Liburnians
518px-Liburnia_1st_AD.png

I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...
Labarna I
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Labarna I was the traditional first King of the Hittites, ca. the early 16th century BC (short chronology).
Labarna is the traditional founder of the Hittite Old Kingdom (fl. ca. 1600 – 1450 BC), though his existence is sometimes questioned by modern scholars.
...What little is known about him is culled mainly from the Edict of Telipinu, which states that he overwhelmed his enemies and "made them borders of the sea",[1] a statement which may refer to conquests as far as the Mediterranean coast in the south, and the Black Sea in the north.
...
Labarna was actually a title of the early Hittite rulers,[2] rather than a personal name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I
 
Haplogroup_G2a.gif

As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..
800px-Hittite_Kingdom.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
this peak is related to Liburnians
518px-Liburnia_1st_AD.png

I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I

Thank you I am convicted I do agree this old settlement of G2a in Anatolia is matching to the Hittites I believe the Hittites were the real people of Anatolia as Renfrew the Indo European cradle was on this area or from the Armenian plateau or Caucasus in correlation to the Hattis the Hurrians and also the Kassites all these people are involved in the earlier Indo Aryan language or the proto Indo European all are sharing the same deities. Anyway G2a3b1 in Europe comes from these civilizations probably during the bronze age or more recently among the Alans or other tribes from this era ? The first hypothesis was about the Roman suppletives so I wonder why when the Roman Empire was defeated these suppletives were associated to the Germanic tribes ? I have some doubts about this hypothesis and also about the real demographic impact of these suppletives among the Romans on the European population ...
 
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To all,

Since hopefully I can now post a URL, here is the URL for: haplogroup G ftdna project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

If this does not work Yahoo. ftdna hapgroup g y-dna project. (once you are in the project keep scrolling down to view all the tested parties results.)

This site, shows all males in the world who are of haplogroup G (only) that have tested with ftdna and their results. Only their kit numbers and surnames are posted.

Starting with haploclade G1 all results are in desending order. Just like in a genealogy chart. The "ancestor is G1 and his son's and their son's etc (in thousands of years) split down the line (downstream) with each number (G2) and then with mutations the sons split into subgroups like G2a, G2b , etc etc. In order for anyone to understand who came first , one would do well to look up this project.

Please do note the surname names of the beginning posted results, they "appear" to be of Middle Eastern origins. Also there are more than a few self identified (men) in "Jewish clusters".

Melusine
 
Hi!

If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
 
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Hi!
If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
Regards
Dean
Let's not jump to conclusions...
It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...
Haplogroup_G2a.gif

752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg

note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..
550px-Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg.png

I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...
 
Let's now pay attention to areas that lack G2a

Haplogroup_G2a.gif

752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg

Paeonians.png

Note now the lack of G2a spread in area of Paeonia and Epirus..
They are in between two waves of G2a, south one that came from Asia minor with ancient Macedonians mostly, and north one that probably came with Thracians and related tribes either from Caucasus or Asia minor..
I would say that that Paeonians were there before G2a waves..
they could have been original settlers of that area..
 
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups

Listed here are notable ethnic groups by Y-DNA Haplogroups based on relevant studies.

Macedonia (FYROM) Haplogroup G 5.1%
Greece Haplogroup G 9.1%
Albania Haplogroup G 2%
Some of the Aromuns in Macedonia (FYROM) and Albania got haplogroup G.
Kurds in Turkey 12.5% G
Bulgaria 0% G
Serbia 0% G
Kosovo 0% G


Cant post links and to get there just search the headline in google, the information is in wikipedia.

Dont get me wrong I am not here to prove anything only hanging on with the information you all have posted and if I can post more relevant information here. Must start somewhere.
 
Let's not jump to conclusions...
It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...
Haplogroup_G2a.gif

752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg

note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..
550px-Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg.png

I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...
actually, I think I was wrong...
G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...
581px-Balkans-ethnic_%281877%29.jpg

so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....
 
actually, I think I was wrong...
G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...

so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....

G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .
 
G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .
The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...
 
The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...

How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from different haplogroups (some R1a) that G2a found in the rest of Greece .
 
How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from a different haplogroup that G2a .

I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...
 
I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...

Yes G2a is for a long time in Anatolia so you think that the Turks moved them in this era of Greece after the fall of Constantinople just 500 years ago ? and it is sufficient to see this hot spot ? I don't think so because there are many G2a3a in the FTDNA project who come from a Macedonian origin and who are not Turks .
 

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