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    Sarmatians



    this thread is closely related to thread Veneti
    Veneti

    as it is likely that Veneti and Sarmatians were very closely related tribes - something like Croats and Serbs today...

    The Sarmatians (Latin Sarmatæ or Sauromatæ, Greek Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται) were an Iranian people of Classical Antiquity, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.[1][2]
    Their territory was known as Sarmatia to Greco-Roman ethnographers, corresponding to the western part of greater Scythia (modern Southern Russia, Ukraine, and the eastern Balkans). At their greatest reported extent, around 100 BC, these tribes ranged from the Vistula River to the mouth of the Danube and eastward to the Volga, bordering the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as the Caucasus to the south.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

    clusterisation of samples

    from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
    Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb


    In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary (cluster 14). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine: cluster 18; (2) continental Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia: cluster 2. Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and to the western area of the Balkans and cluster 11 to the Caucasus.
    cluster 18 - Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine

    cluster 18 groups with cluster 10 (not explicitly mentioned in text and hard to say what is it from map - colour on map could be either Moldavia with areas next to Black sea in east Romania and Bulgaria, or central-west Anatolia or part of Caucasus)
    than those 2 clusters group with clusters 13 (Albania) and 5 (central Anatolia)

    to me this seems to be in proof of Sarmatian-Veneti tribes originating from Paphlagonia, and Albanians as well originating from Asia minor perhaps via genetical origin from Dardani tribe...

    in fact I wonder whether name Sarmatians is derived from earlier Cimmerians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png
    in fact, Eneti and Cimmerians are not the same nation, but I think they were very very closely related... perhaps Eneti are branch of Cimmerians, same as Sarmatian Venedi are part of Sarmatians and later Slavic Anti as likely originating from Sarmatians..

    in fact it is not difficult to imagine Cimmerians spreading from Asia minor to east and branch of them going north passing through Caucasus and comming up on northern shore of Black sea... as it might be deduced from pattern of haplogroup I distribution in Asia


    today haplogroup I in Asia peaks in Zazas (Dimilis) in Asia minor... and in area called Daylami south of Caspian lake (area north of Teheran)..
    Linguistic studies shows that the Zazas may have immigrated to their modern-day homeland from the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Some Zazas use the word Dimli (Daylami) to describe their ethnic identity. The word Dimli (Daylami) also describes a region of Gilan Province in today’s Iran. Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylam towards the west. Today, Iranian languages are still spoken in southern regions of Caspian Sea (also called the Caspian languages), including Sangsarī, Māzandarānī, Tātī (Herzendī), Semnānī, Tāleshī, and they are grammatically and lexically very close to Zazaki; this supports the argument that Zazas immigrated to eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea.[8] Zazas also live in a region close to the Kurds, who are also another Iranic ethnic group. But, historic sources such as the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn, places the Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland in the headwaters of the Tigris[citation needed], as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated to the Caspian sea and not the other way around[original research?].
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazas

    I also wonder whether words Dalmatia (where is highest frequency of haplogrpoup I2a2) and Daylamites (islands of I in north Iran and Asia minor) have same root...

    The Zazaki language shows similarities with (Hewrami or Gorani), Shabaki and Bajelani. Gorani, Bajelani, and Shabaki languages are spoken around Iran-Iraq border; however, it is believed that they are also immigrated from Northern Iran to their present homelands. These languages are sometimes put together in the Zaza-Gorani language group.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language
    Here I wonder whether words Shabaki and Srbi have common origin...
    in fact, it we follow further spread of I in the Asia we get to Sarbans who are now one of the Pashtun tribes... however, unlike other Pastuns they seems to carry lot of I haplogroup
    which is illustrated by observing perfect match between spread of I haplogroup and Sarbans



    In fact, I would say that Cimmerians gave Zazaki, Shabaki, Sarbans, Sarmatians and among them Serbi in Asian Sarmatia in Caucasus


    in fact, we can see that I have reached very far on east - deep in what is now north-west China

    who were those people?
    Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres
    Pliny also reports a curious description of the Seres made by an embassy from Taprobane to Emperor Claudius, suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin, such as the Tocharians:
    "They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; .." (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres
    Serica, the land of the Seres, was the name by which the Greco-Romans referred to a country in Central Asia.
    Ancient Mediterranean knowledge of this nation was indistinct and distorted by fables and myths. Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder present more precise descriptions. Serica was described by Ptolemy as bordering "Scythia beyond the Imaum mountains (Tian Shan)" on the West, "Terra Incognita" to the North-East, the "Sinae" or Chinese to the East and "India" to the South. This would correspond with modern Xinjiang province in North-Western China.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 06-11-10 at 02:20.

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    in fact, based on same haplogropup I and same self-identification of Illyrian Delmatae and iranian Daylami tribes







    I would conclude that at least some (if not all) of what is considered to be Illyrian tribes were related to Sarmatian-Veneti tribes by same origin. Note that again tribe name Delmatae is accompanied with tribe names like Sardeates, Serretes, Serapilli, Serdi, Scordisci...

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    Damn, they sound really Italian, at least half of them. By names I would deduct that they invaded Italy and started Roman Empire. Uscana...Tuscana...Toscana? Galabri...Calabri...Calabria? And look we have Veneto on this map! That's only from fast glance.
    Or maybe because Roman historians were writing the names of the tribes from other countries, that's why they sound so Italian or Latin? But this mean that they might not be correct ones or way off the original.


    Did Bassania became Bosnia?
    Did Labates invented Labat bear?
    Are Thuraki...Turki?
    Did Chelidoni invaded Iberia and started Caledonia, or was it in Scotland?

    The point is I could be right on one of these questions. But this is like shooting the target with machine gun, sometimes you hit it, lol. You need something more than similar names to pull the right conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Damn, they sound really Italian, at least half of them. By names I would deduct that they invaded Italy and started Roman Empire. Uscana...Tuscana...Toscana? Galabri...Calabri...Calabria? And look we have Veneto on this map! That's only from fast glance.
    I am talking about origin, and that goes beyond language and culture as those may change...
    what stays is tribal names and haplogroups... and when there is a match between the two, and also in nearby areas, or areas related by historically attested migrations, it is good indication of common origin...

    Uscana..Tuscana..Toscana might indeed be related since Etruscans or Tusci did have to pass through Balkans on their way from Asia minor to Italy...

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    Do we have haplogroup data from South/West Poland, Normandy, and Venice area? I mean deeper clads so we could pinpoint if there are any commonalities between all 3 Veneti. It would be incredibly interesting if there is.
    This is where you should start. Not trying to sound like a teacher, but I would help you if I had more time these days.
    Otherwise, so far we don't have enough info to get right conclusion, even for a close guess. Baltic Veneti could be Slavic, Germanic, Celtic or Baltic tribe. Who knows, maybe a mixture of all 4.
    The closest match from later history is Slavic tribe Veleti, Wieleci. East Germany area.


    Try this link too.
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11803

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do we have haplogroup data from South/West Poland, Normandy, and Venice area? I mean deeper clads so we could pinpoint if there are any commonalities between all 3 Veneti. It would be incredibly interesting if there is.
    This is where you should start. Not trying to sound like a teacher, but I would help you if I had more time these days.
    yes, you are right...
    the way I present my ideas is wrong...
    I thought it is absolutely clear that I talk about ideas and theories...
    but perhaps the way I conveyed my ideas was too strong...

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I mean deeper clads so we could pinpoint if there are any commonalities between all 3 Veneti. It would be incredibly interesting if there is.
    ....
    Otherwise, so far we don't have enough info to get right conclusion, even for a close guess.
    I agree, but all I could do is share these ideas on forum like this, hoping that someone who has access to more data be able to confirm or discard the suggested links..


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Baltic Veneti could be Slavic, Germanic, Celtic or Baltic tribe. Who knows, maybe a mixture of all 4.
    I think it is other way around...Eneti from Paphlagonia are older than Slavic, Italic, Celtic, Germanic cultures...that is why you see branches of them ending up as Italic, Celtic, Slavic.... but their haplogroups and their tribal names stayed...
    and I have impression that spread of Sarmato-Veneti group and of subgroups of I haplogroup seems to be associated with smaller tribal names like Helvetti, Carvetti in Celtic areas, and Sarbans, Serbi in iranic areas... in fact, this division between appearence of Croat (Hrvati) and Serb (Srbi) like tribal names might reflect centum/satem division...

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    I don't have any links now, but what I remember is that Veneti had pretty good metallurgical/iron industry, very nice pottery and traded amber with Romans. Then after Goth walk through, and Huns invasion, the land got underpopulated, over 90% people vanished. Then Slavs came with simpler metallurgy skills and simple pottery. All left after Veneti were river names like Wisla/Vistula.
    If Wieleci/Veleti are continuation of Venety then they became slavonized.
    Veneti belonged to different culture than Slavs 500 years later.

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    I was trying to find subclads of Normandy but there was nothing I could find.
    If Baltic Veneti where R1b/Celtic than U152 might be common marker for them and Veneti in Italy, but not for Normandy. So Veneti could explain U152 in Western Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I don't have any links now, but what I remember is that Veneti had pretty good metallurgical/iron industry, very nice pottery and traded amber with Romans. Then after Goth walk through, and Huns invasion, the land got underpopulated, over 90% people vanished. Then Slavs came with simpler metallurgy skills and simple pottery. All left after Veneti were river names like Wisla/Vistula.
    If Wieleci/Veleti are continuation of Venety then they became slavonized.
    Veneti belonged to different culture than Slavs 500 years later.
    ok, here is historian of Goth origin writing about it in 6th century (around 551 AD)

    In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

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    I don't know, it is after Slavic expansion. Maybe at this time the name of Venethi left as name for the area of Poland, but there are different occupants. We know how well ancient historians were informed.

    I'm just looking for culture's map, I think I found something interesting, and post soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I don't know, it is after Slavic expansion. Maybe at this time the name of Venethi left as name for the area of Poland, but there are different occupants. We know how well ancient historians were informed.

    I'm just looking for culture's map, I think I found something interesting, and post soon.
    Jordanes was not Roman, he was Goth, he wrote a book about Goth deeds and origin.. so I assume he knows what he talks about... and it was written in 550 AD, thus while transition from talking about Venedi/Veneti and Sarmatians to talking about Slavs was taking place...

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    this is situation in 125 AD


    look at Venedi and Sarmatians (Sarmatae, Roxolans, Iazyges, Alani, Antes, Siraci..) ...
    now compare with Slavs from 6th century



    and read again what Jordanes wrote in 6th century
    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.
    now read what Russian primary chronicle from 1113 says about Slavs...
    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied
    the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and
    the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of
    Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
    lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
    by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
    the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
    same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
    attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
    called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs
    settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named
    Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
    and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called
    Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from
    this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and
    were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians.
    Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic.
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    Noricans are Adriatic Veneti... and Russian chronicle from 1113 AD states that Noricans are identical with Slavs...

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    By archaeological standards Veleti belonged to Pomeranian Culture.

    European early Iron Age cultures:
    dark green - Nordic group
    dark red - Jastorf culture
    yellow - Harpstedt-Nienburger group
    orange - Celtic groups
    olive-green - Pomeranic culture
    bold green - House Urn culture
    light red - east-Baltic cultures of forest zone
    violet - west-Baltic culture of cairns
    turquoise - Milogrady culture
    black - Estonic group

    Interesting is that experts are not sure where Slavs are. The guess is that Milogrady culture is protoslavic.
    Here is the short description of Veneti/Pomeranian culture:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Jordanes was not Roman, he was Goth, he wrote a book about Goth deeds and origin.. so I assume he knows what he talks about... and it was written in 550 AD, thus while transition from talking about Venedi/Veneti and Sarmatians to talking about Slavs was taking place...
    I know, but the thing is when Goths landed on south side of Baltic sea around year 200 the land was occupied by Venethi. Around 400s they went south to Black sea, and somehow the land of Venethi became almost empty. When Jordanes wrote it 150 years later, the land was heavily repopulated by Slavs. Because of the fast Slavic movements and smaller/many tribes there was no one description/name for the land they occupied. Therefore Jordanes was using a common older name for this whole area, which was Venethi.


    Around year 400 the Veneti/Venedi/Venethi are gone, and their culture is completely gone. There is an archaeological emptiness, big nothing in Poland. Than around 500s the land gets populated again by Slavic tribes, but the culture like pottery, tools, burial are different.
    If Veneti were Slavic and talked same language and lived side by side with Sclaveni and Antes, then why the heck their culture would be so different?

    There is another clue. In legends Slavs are walking to their lands that they settled. We know from history and from the legend about Lech, Czech and Rus that they traveled to the destination lands, Poland, Czech and Russia. There is nothing in Polish legend that Lech fought enemy and took heir land. Nothing like this, he just walked with his guards (land is empty, no enemy, no other people) he found a tree with white eagle (oh nice sign) and he started his country there. No battles, no heroism, just land for grabs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    By archaeological standards Veleti belonged to Pomeranian Culture.
    ...
    European early Iron Age cultures:
    dark green - Nordic group
    dark red - Jastorf culture
    yellow - Harpstedt-Nienburger group
    orange - Celtic groups
    olive-green - Pomeranic culture
    bold green - House Urn culture
    light red - east-Baltic cultures of forest zone
    violet - west-Baltic culture of cairns
    turquoise - Milogrady culture
    black - Estonic group

    Interesting is that experts are not sure where Slavs are. The guess is that Milogrady culture is protoslavic.
    Here is the short description of Veneti/Pomeranian culture:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture
    there is not necessarily a mapping between the cultures in bronze age and the ones in much later age...even associating celtics and nordics is just a speculation based on their geographical position... and some positions are just convenient for any tribe to settle them.... same cultural wave can spread among genetically and linguistically different cultures, while the tribes of same origin and language might be by set of historical circumstances divided in different cultures... so, while cultures of bronze age are interesting to study with respect to later cultures, it is important to realize that there might not be 1-1 mapping or might not be mapping at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I know, but the thing is when Goths landed on south side of Baltic sea around year 200 the land was occupied by Venethi. Around 400s they went south to Black sea, and somehow the land of Venethi became almost empty. When Jordanes wrote it 150 years later, the land was heavily repopulated by Slavs. Because of the fast Slavic movements and smaller/many tribes there was no one description/name for the land they occupied. Therefore Jordanes was using a common older name for this whole area, which was Venethi.
    if the position is more or less the same, if tribal name is more or less the same, if it is very populous race, what is alternative to it being the same?

    you are trying to convince me that there was a very populous tribe race, that it disappeared without trace, and that 150 years later there is another very populous race that took over the name of the first one just cause they had no name and that one sounded nice....

    I would say it is against common sense...
    well, let me give you two examples from recent history:
    there were Russians on political maps on start of 20th century, than there were Soviets, and now they are Russians again...
    there were on political maps Serbs and Croats on start of 20th century, than there were Yugoslavs, now there are again Serbs and Croats...

    Dio you think that Russians from now and Russians from start of 20th century are unrelated? Or that Serbs and Croats from now and the ones from start of 20th century are unrelated?
    Of course you do not...

    But you think that about Veneti, just because few politically motivated historians from 2 centuries ago, without any facts, wanted to put Slavs in position of newcomers... it's a political game of autochtonous nations having more right on land than those who arrived later, game that was played in 19th century, and that is now played occasionally as well (e.g. rapid recent renaming of Kosovo Albanians to Kosovars to make them appear more autochtonous, or rapid recent renaming of Bosnia muslims to Bosniacs to make them appear more autochtonous than Serbs and Croats from Bosnia)...

    however, genetics shows us that R1a is much much older in Balkan than anywhere else, and that I2a2 might origin from Balkan and nearby....

    So, if:
    1) Slavs are dominantly R1a and I2a2, and
    2) they are only people dominantly of those haplogroups in Europe, and
    3) genetics shows that those haplogroups are in Balkan and east Europe for very long time already
    4) 6th century historian claims Slavs are of Venetic race
    5) Slavs primary chronicle from 12th century claims the same

    than what gives any credibility to 19th century politically motivated historians from west Europe and their theories that Slavs are intruders from Asia...
    their ignorance perhaps? or their biased attitude?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is another clue. In legends Slavs are walking to their lands that they settled. We know from history and from the legend about Lech, Czech and Rus that they traveled to the destination lands, Poland, Czech and Russia. There is nothing in Polish legend that Lech fought enemy and took heir land. Nothing like this, he just walked with his guards (land is empty, no enemy, no other people) he found a tree with white eagle (oh nice sign) and he started his country there. No battles, no heroism, just land for grabs.
    you are talking about folk tales that you read on forums recently...

    but Lech, Czech and Rus did move, look at Venedi and Sarmatians in 125 AD..they are not in Czech republic and west Poland... that is expansion after Suebi and Vandals moved out...also Sarmatians and Veneds are not nearly as far on east as Russian empire

    but they did live in Panonia and Noricum... according to Russian primary chronicle... historic document from 12th century... which is still much closer to the source than 19th century historians....

    and brothers Lech, Czech and Rus (if ever existed) probably share same R1a ancestor that was according to DNA like 4000 years ago... that common ancestor of theirs obviously origins from someone from Balkan since common ancestor for R1a people from Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia is 11500 years ago... while everywhere else it is up to 4500 years ago...


    according to "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" - Anatole A. Klyosov http://precedings.nature.com/documen...20082733-1.pdf
    a common ancestor of the Eurasian R1a1 haplotype lived between 4,100 and 4,900 years ago. An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where a common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,500 years bp. This will be explored below in this section.
    The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp.
    thus, between 3000 BC and 2000 BC spread of R1a starts from Balkans towards north and east..
    and I think that I2a2 arrives to Balkans and east Europe with Veneto-Sarmatian tribes from Asia minor... (Eneti & Cimmerians) in years after Trojan war, so not before 1300 BC...
    as a result you have northern layer of R1a in east Europe and than gradually more and more mixed with I2a2 as you go towards Balkan and Black sea... however, in 551 AD Slavs were culturally one unit - Veneti race that Jordanes talks about... since Veneti have absorbed R1a that was already there in east Europe... the languages probably came dominantly from R1a... I think that I2a2 might have originally spoken centum variant of IE as is supposed that Illyrians did as well and as other I haplogroups do...or actually they might have split from other I haplogroups before centum - satem split...

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    Now explain 5th century depopulation and drastic change of cultures in former land of Veneti. If Veneti are Slavs then why they changed their culture to the simpler one? Who the heck made them change their traditions and arts?
    Secondly the name changes you exampled are the autochthonous changes. Jordanes is a forein historian writing about foreign land. Goths "just" went through the Veneti land, and they know this land as Veneti.
    Do you know country name Magyarorszag? Why foreigners call it Hungary???!!! Ah, to add a twist to it, the half of Hungary population is R1a! Now that's a history behind that, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was trying to find subclads of Normandy but there was nothing I could find.
    If Baltic Veneti where R1b/Celtic than U152 might be common marker for them and Veneti in Italy, but not for Normandy. So Veneti could explain U152 in Western Poland.
    there is one wrong assumption in this idea
    Veneti didnot live in west Poland before 4th or 5th century...
    look at map from 125 AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    there is not necessarily a mapping between the cultures in bronze age and the ones in much later age...even associating celtics and nordics is just a speculation based on their geographical position... and some positions are just convenient for any tribe to settle them.... same cultural wave can spread among genetically and linguistically different cultures, while the tribes of same origin and language might be by set of historical circumstances divided in different cultures... so, while cultures of bronze age are interesting to study with respect to later cultures, it is important to realize that there might not be 1-1 mapping or might not be mapping at all...
    If it's changing anything, it's an iron age already.
    What you wrote is right, but the cultural changes can be connected to big historic events. Cutures can slowly evolve, but if there is a substantial change, it means something big happened. In case of Veneti/Pomeranian culture it just vanished completely. That's an archaeological fact, that's it, it's gone around 4 hundreds. The new culture that came, is a huge event too, and we know that it was connected with Slavic expansion, that's a fact too.
    I'm baffled, why the similarities in names can give you some easy conclusions, but study of cultures and big cultural events are disregarded?

    And if it comes to your last quick assumption about me reading the Lech legend just now, let me give you a clue. I'm polish.

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    Oh please, it is not a map from 125AD! It was made few years ago on a computer by someone!
    Do you know where I can find original? Vatican library?
    You assumed, again, that this map is from long time ago, because it says on it 125AD.
    And even if it was copied from 125AD map, everything outside Roman Empire is an approximation, and in many cases big approximation. Did you think the Rome send their geodetic guys to Baltic sea or other places to trace it so exactly, as we know it today? Look they even got the elevations right!

    Now, this is how the real maps look like: Europe 1569
    http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm4/...SOBOX=1&REC=17

    Russian Empire 1757
    http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm4/...SOBOX=1&REC=20
    We are talking 250 years ago, not 2000 years ago. How much did the Russians knew about their own land, not mentioning their neighbor Japan?!!!

    So if you show me the real map from 125AD we'll know it's a real one because it'll be really geographically screwed up. ;)

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    Here we go, found it, map from 4th century.
    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana
    click on long nerrow map at the top of the page.
    Isn't it something?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh please, it is not a map from 125AD! It was made few years ago on a computer by someone!
    Of course it is not...
    I made a lapse there...
    what I meant is map showing state in 125 AD
    and the map is of course drawn much later, but based on history records...
    here is another map based on historical records that also shows that Veneti/Venedi are nowhere near west Poland before 5th centrury... in fact also in 500 AD Veleti appear there while Veneti are still southeast of Veleti... but due to proximity and similar name it may be the case that Veleti are part of Veneti....

    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_2750.html

    my point is that Vistula Veneti cannot be that R1b - U152 simply because they were south east from the hotspot of U152 in west Poland...and there is no R1b southeast of the hotspot...

    nice try though...

    btw. good historical map (althoug it seems to be actually made in 13th century only, perhaps based on some older maps), I will take a look at it... it seems to capture Sarmatians there..
    here is complete version
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tingeriana.jpg

    first interesting issue in map is that what is now Slavonia in Croatia is called Norico (look above Liburni and to east from Histria) in the map, which is some offset from Roman province of Noricum that was Slovenia of today and part north of it...
    Vindobona (Wien) is somewhere quite north, which shows no interest for areas north of Roman empire...
    hence from this map you will not really find position of Veneti, though you can see that Sarmatians dwell in area north-northeast of Moesia superior (Serbia/north Bulgaria) which you already know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Now explain 5th century depopulation and drastic change of cultures in former land of Veneti. If Veneti are Slavs then why they changed their culture to the simpler one? Who the heck made them change their traditions and arts?
    Veneti didnot change...
    as I said they were just not in Poemerania at the time of the cultures you describe...they settled there only after 5th century... there lived Germanic Ruggi, Lemovi, Vandals, Goths and Scirii (Scirii lived east of Goths, west of Balts and north of Veneti, which in fact might point out to proto-Serbs of Balkans since they had to pick up somewhere haplogroup N before bringing it to Serbia ... this is not too probable though since Scirri are considered east Germanic, but than again so are Veneti...thing is to early Greek and Roman historians Germanic vs. Sarmatic was about way of living, not about origin, to simplify it it was about living in house or being nomads... than again I2a2 might have originally been Germanic as other clades of haplogroup I were

    anyway, look at the map showing reconstructed positions of tribes for around 1 AD:
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_2750.html
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Secondly the name changes you exampled are the autochthonous changes. Jordanes is a forein historian writing about foreign land.
    So, what do you want me to say that Jordanes who lived in time when that was happening has no clue what he writes about, but that you and some biased 19th century historians who had very limited access to information (e.g. I can today click few links and get to read Jordanes Gethica while for them it was not easy to get to any of the manuscripts) know what have happened...
    sorry, but I don't buy that...from you speaks your bias...
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Goths "just" went through the Veneti land, and they know this land as Veneti.
    they didnot just went through that land...
    they first lived for awhile north of those people, than they moved slowly for like 100 of years through that land, then they lived south of Veneti but among Sarmatians...among Antes as well...
    so, no, saying that Antes are of Venetic race just can not be a mistake..
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you know country name Magyarorszag? Why foreigners call it Hungary???!!!
    Nearby countries actually do not call it Hungary...it's a name in english...
    Name Hungary is used because kingdom of Hun left strong impression and all following invaders(Avars, Magyars) were condsidered to be of similar turkic origin... there is no similarity with Venets who were not aggressive or well organized empire with strong reputation...
    in fact, it was also called Turkia... But Hungary is not called Hungary in neighbouring nations, there the name for that country is related to the name of Magyars...
    and Gothi were for long time in neighbourhood of Veneti and Sarmatians (note that Antes that Jordanes says are of Venetic race were previously always counted as Sarmatians, which is in fact probably because Veneti and Sarmatians are single race)...
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Ah, to add a twist to it, the half of Hungary population is R1a! Now that's a history behind that, right?
    Country was obviously populated with Slavs before Magyars...
    in fact you can also see that east and west Hungary actually form cluster with Serbs, Croats, Romanians, and central Ukraine... while central Hungary is cluster for itself... which indicates that Magyars have settled in central part of today Hungary and did subjugate and assimilate previous inhabitants east and west of them...

    from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
    Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb


    Quote:
    In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary (cluster 14). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine: cluster 18; (2) continental Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia: cluster 2. Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and to the western area of the Balkans and cluster 11 to the Caucasus.
    cluster 18 - Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine


    but judging by clustering it is due to I2a2... meaning that much of R1a might have come with Magyars..
    I do not know why you expect that all people speaking uralic languages share N haplogroup... as I said, cultures and languages change, but haplogroups stay and tribal names tend to stay with majority of people...

    I can imagine that Magyars were Scythian R1a tribe living in close proximity to uralic tribes of Asia and that their cultural development was influenced by uralic people... they might have had N elite, since there is like 1% of N in Hungary (which is much less than in Serbia and Bosnian Serbs or in Balts and Belarus, and Rus)

    in fact, in research above, cluster 14 (central Hungary) is closest to cluster 4 which is western Fenno-Scandianvia and not to cluster of west and east Slavs or to a cluster of Finland and Baltic, which points out that Magyars might have been originally same R1a population that did settle Scandinavia, but were under domination of Uralic tribes...

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    in fact, besides showing the link between illyrian Dalamtae and iranian Zaza/Daylamites that is based on spread of I haplogroup, and beside plenty of Serb-alike tribal names, some other tribes that were often classified as Illyrians might have in fact been Sarmatians... let me explain...

    In Pannonia, you can see Iazi
    and explanation in text
    Jasi
    Jasi was the name of an Illyrian tribe[88][116] subtribe of Pannonians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes

    almost same place (pushed a bit on east by spread of Roman empire) some time later



    Iazyges
    The Iazyges (Jazyges is an orthographic variant) were a nomadic tribe. Known also as Jaxamatae, Ixibatai, Iazygite, Jászok, Ászi. They were a branch of the Sarmatian people who, c. 200 BC, swept westward from central Asia onto the steppes of what is now Ukraine.[1] Little is known about their language, but it was one of the Iranian languages.
    The name of the Romanian city Iaşi likely comes from the name of the Iazyges or the Jász (Iazones), who traveled through the region from the Ukrainian plains to the Carpathian Basin (Hungarian plain).
    so, we have same tribal name on two nearby relations, classified by unknown scholars:
    1) in pre-roman tribe as illyrian
    2) in Roman empire time as Sarmatian !!!

    with those matches, can we conclude that it is possible that some tribes previously considered to be Illyrians were in fact Sarmatians? perhaps real Illyrians were just south of Dardani as in this picture where position of Illyrians actually matches position of Albanians of today, while position of tribes that seems to have link to Sarmatians are in fact areas settled by Serbs, Croats and other south Slavs of today...



    take a good look at position of Oseriates tribe....
    it is exactly this place

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plitvic..._National_Park


    magnificent set of 16 lakes with lot of waterfalls... really beautiful

    Oseriates, right?

    words for lake:
    russian - ozero
    Ukrainian - ozero
    serbo-croat - jezero
    czech - jezero
    german - see
    italian - lago
    french - lac
    greeks - λίμνη
    estonian - järv
    albanian - liqen

    so, who do you think Oseriates are related to in terms of nations of today?

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