Thoughts from Klyosov R1b data and the IE problem

sorry for no global positive theory of mine - very often I put just some limited points: but it could help or at least eliminate false conclusions based upon mistaking "looks" of things:
the speacial Ł / ł /w/ of polish is well an ancient 'L' so we cannot assume a link with a supposed *kwus << equus - only a very modern loan could explain a non eymological spelling using this special evolved Ł to exprim a /w/ distinct from polish 'W' = /v/ - the ancient I-E 'w' have turned into /v/ in polish and other languages -
so kŁus seems from *klos: maybe ??? an ancient **kros <> I-E >> germanic hros (horse, ros) ??? with ??? k-r <> cursus/carros ???
just an amateur hypothesis still to be proved -

Good point about ł(w), kwus (kłus) be a late borrowing in this particular case. Definitely there was L to Ł (w) transformation in polish language some time ago. It made me think that perhaps original value of this word was "kus". In Czech there is a word KUS meaning small/piece. "Kwus" in polish means trot, small horse step/gate. In polish KUC (tz) means small horse. In central/east europe the cavalier (horse warrior) was called "usar, husar, gusar", perhaps similar meaning of word "kosak, kozak, kazak" Cossack, the horse warriors of the steppes.
"Kuznets" in russian means blacksmith.

Nice picture of Don Kozak on guard. (to make this post more esthetic) :)

don-cossack.jpg
 
Good point about ł(w), kwus (kłus) be a late borrowing in this particular case. Definitely there was L to Ł (w) transformation in polish language some time ago. It made me think that perhaps original value of this word was "kus". In Czech there is a word KUS meaning small/piece. "Kwus" in polish means trot, small horse step/gate. In polish KUC (tz) means small horse. In central/east europe the cavalier (horse warrior) was called "usar, husar, gusar", perhaps similar meaning of word "kosak, kozak, kazak" Cossack, the horse warriors of the steppes.
"Kuznets" in russian means blacksmith.

Nice picture of Don Kozak on guard. (to make this post more esthetic) :)

LeBrok, Polish "ł" /w/ is a relatively late thing, as it corresponds clearly to *l in other Slavic languages. An example would be Polish "osioł" (donkey) against Czech "osel" and Russian "осел" (osel) - which in turn was borrowed originally from Latin "asellus" (also notice the sound shift *a > *o, which was itself a relatively late thing in my opinion (but still a common Slavic sound change!), as must have occured around the Migration Period).

I might add, I'm not aware of any reflex of *ekwos in Slavic (Baltic, yeah), but instead Slavic possesses a reflex of *kaballo- ("kobyła" in Polish), which is also found in the Celtic languages (Welsh has "ceffyl"), borrowed into Latin as 'caballus', hence French 'cheval', Spanish 'caballo', but the word probably isn't from Proto-Indo-European.
 
LeBrok, Polish "ł" /w/ is a relatively late thing, as it corresponds clearly to *l in other Slavic languages. An example would be Polish "osioł" (donkey) against Czech "osel" and Russian "осел" (osel) - which in turn was borrowed originally from Latin "asellus" (also notice the sound shift *a > *o, which was itself a relatively late thing in my opinion (but still a common Slavic sound change!), as must have occured around the Migration Period).
In my layman linguistic knowledge I was musing about possibility of original possible IE kus (perhaps meaning small/piece) becoming klus and later kłus. Latin exiguus?
I agree though that polish kłus looks definitely as borrowing from latin equus or ecus. Is there possibility of later Latin development of "ekwus" from "ekus"?
I would like to mention that small horses were more of a standard way back than big Arabian type. Perhaps called kus, later giving meaning for small when compared to big breeds?

I might add, I'm not aware of any reflex of *ekwos in Slavic (Baltic, yeah), but instead Slavic possesses a reflex of *kaballo- ("kobyła" in Polish), which is also found in the Celtic languages (Welsh has "ceffyl"), borrowed into Latin as 'caballus', hence French 'cheval', Spanish 'caballo', but the word probably isn't from Proto-Indo-European.
I have a hunch that caballo might have been coined as a differentiation for naming big/modern/expensive horses. Before that the small mongol/steppe horse was most popular even across Europe. Possibly called ecus and kus.
 
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Post? par LeBrok
I've read somewhere that old Slavic kon was kobn, the horse female is kobyla in polish. Now we are closer to Italian caballo. Also horse run called trot is called kłus (eng phonetic: kwus, qwus) in polish, now we are close to IE eq'wos.


Russian word for mare "lochka"; Koin is the general sense to horse, Basque tsalde and mare behoka , french : mare jument ; horse cheval
kabil for Russian is an insult meaning "dog"


text Cossack music "ko?n": "with my horse we will go towards the horizon ..................Russia you I love you". [The palace

opera Moskow]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFCfO-5Exjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbG8fABvbXM




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzAaioP2GGw
 
LEBROK, (and a bit too, MARTIKO, I'm afraid you did not see the implication of the *KLUS existance: it can never be compared to EQUUS nor to KON'- so we have to search for another etymplogy for this word...
concerning KON', I have no opinion for now but ALINEI thought it was a turkic former word loaned in slavics...(I don't know what to think because I found only the word AT for "horse" in anatolian Turkic by the way all the slavic words have a 'yod' appendix perhaps a remnant of an old 'I' : KON' << KONJ << KON-I: but?- a cognate with CANIS would be tempting but the meaning is by far too different at first look - sorry, just "lice castration" here as we say in breton ... the non-
PS: MARTIKO: °KOB-N if confirmed could be a good new for us...
 
the general question of the 'horse' and 'wheel' in the I-Ean puzzle:
I put my rifle in some slavics dictionaries (knowing it's game and not work, but i'have NO etymologic studies at hand about slavic language history)

I found some words, not exactly in the "horse" entries, but in entries concerning close things like 'chevalry', 'horse riding' and so on...
Czech: jezdec "horse rider" + 4 derived words on the same words (jezd-) for close meanings + jizd "race", "promenade"
Srb-Croat: jezditi "to go on a horse", "to ride a horse"
Bulgarian: ezda "riding time" or "travel" ->> jazdja "to ride"
Russian: poiézdka, obiézd verkhôm "riding time or travel" + iézdit' verkhôm "ro ride a horse"

the root seems being °êg-d could that be an ancient °êk-t<< °êkw- (see latin equ-it-) - I don't know the peculiar laws concerning stop consonnants sonorization in old slavic -
maybe this is a born-dead speculation of mine but if it could be true, it would be of some interest concerning the "hrose" notion among Slavs - just attepting to guess
good post-Eather to you!
 
the general question of the 'horse' and 'wheel' in the I-Ean puzzle:
I put my rifle in some slavics dictionaries (knowing it's game and not work, but i'have NO etymologic studies at hand about slavic language history)

I found some words, not exactly in the "horse" entries, but in entries concerning close things like 'chevalry', 'horse riding' and so on...
Czech: jezdec "horse rider" + 4 derived words on the same words (jezd-) for close meanings + jizd "race", "promenade"
Srb-Croat: jezditi "to go on a horse", "to ride a horse"
Bulgarian: ezda "riding time" or "travel" ->> jazdja "to ride"
Russian: poiézdka, obiézd verkhôm "riding time or travel" + iézdit' verkhôm "ro ride a horse"

the root seems being °êg-d could that be an ancient °êk-t<< °êkw- (see latin equ-it-) - I don't know the peculiar laws concerning stop consonnants sonorization in old slavic -
maybe this is a born-dead speculation of mine but if it could be true, it would be of some interest concerning the "hrose" notion among Slavs - just attepting to guess
good post-Eather to you!

Hi,

I am not a linguist, but g -> dzh -> z looks legitimate.

Regarding kobyla, a similar sounding word exists, possibly describing movement of a hoppled? horse - ковылять/kovilyat' - hobble, stump along, dodder, stumble along. To smith - ковать/kovat' thus horseshoe becomes подкова/podkova. The smith is koval' in Polish and Ukrainian. Shoed horse - podkovanniy kon'.
Also ковыль/kovil' - feather grass or mat grass that grows in the steppes.
 
Hi,

I am not a linguist, but g -> dzh -> z looks legitimate.

Regarding kobyla, a similar sounding word exists, possibly describing movement of a hoppled? horse - ковылять/kovilyat' - hobble, stump along, dodder, stumble along. To smith - ковать/kovat' thus horseshoe becomes подкова/podkova. The smith is koval' in Polish and Ukrainian. Shoed horse - podkovanniy kon'.
Also ковыль/kovil' - feather grass or mat grass that grows in the steppes.
Koval is might be a borrowing (possibly from celtic?) kabal->kobal->koval. Looks like kobn, kobyla came from kabal too. I think it might came with new breed of big horses.
I have a hunch that small horses, the steppe original horses, were called something else like kuc or klus/kus or even koza.
 
Yes we have Croatian potkovatiand Bulgarian podkovavam meaning«to shoe horses», O.K.
But a link between words likekova[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ř[/FONT]/kowal/kova[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]č[/FONT]and words likekobila/kobyla ? I think it'sgoing to far – the V >< B differenceis not an obstacle in a diachronic point of view and the /b>>v/evolution is very common in some languages, for the most betweenvowels – but in a same language at the same stage of history,without dialectal forms, it becomes an obstacle to the conclusion ofa common origin - &: the prononuciation is /v/ and /b/ in everyslavic language between vowels, so no sound according to otherconsonnant, whatever the spelling – all the slavic languages I saw(russian, polish, czech, serbian-croatian, bulgarian) present thesame opposition in these two meanings -
/v/>< /b/so... 2different roots, I bet -


theonly semantical link between the words concerning smith work andhorses in slavics are based on the «metal» notion, nothing else –the same occur in breton where the original «smith» equivalent, gov(gob- inceltic) is very often replaced by the word marichal/marchalof germanic origin and passedin it through french language – marichal / maréchal(marshall) derives fromgerm-(OHG) marah-skalkwhere the «horse» notion is evident (the smithes used to shoehorses with iron shoes) -


inrussian and polish there are two seemingly different roots for«smith-» or «smithy» or «to forge»: kov-and kuc- [koots] -
Ihave no idea of their possible link and the previous generic meaning-
veryhazardous hypothesis (fun): '°'= MY bets >< '*'= scholars bets-
kuts<< °kow+k+j ?°kow-d-s ? < - >°kow-ak-j ? >>kovac (monophtonguisons is common in slavic evolution (here /ou/ >>/u/) as well as lost of consonnants in groups) -
anI-Ean root *kau-would exist (scholars) : «to cut», «to prune» - Lat- cu-dere,cusum to beat, to forge», «toform» + incus, incudis,Italian incudine,French enclume«anvil», see Polish kowadlo«anvil» Germ-O-H-G houwan >> hauen : «to hew» – heu : «hay»>> French houe,houlette, hoyau – English tohew >> hay -
theCzech kovina «metal»could very well be the source and explanation and cut short otherspeculations?
#
kobila <<kobyla <<°kobula <<°kob-l << °k[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ă[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b-l[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]°k[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ă[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]p-l[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],see [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]caballus[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]but too [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]capal/ceffyl[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](celticwhere the root seems being [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]°kapp-l[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]–) - ? an european root, perhaps non I-Ean ? - [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]&:in Kurdic I found in a dictionary the words: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]keil,kiayl [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]«purerace horse», Turkic [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kehlanati – [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]it's pure speculation for curiosity[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]lacking the old forms, knowing the phonetical evolution can send usvery far, so I don't know if we have here a cognate of[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]°kabal-/°kappal[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]???[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]alater loan to celtic (?) or other I-Ean [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'kaval'[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]could explain the form [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]koval[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]buthere again, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]koval[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is not a one-bit word but a compound of[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kov+al[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],as we can see with other slavic derived words on the same ground:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kov[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]č[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]nica[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]/ kow[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]adlo[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]/ kov[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ati[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...[/FONT]
 
Hi,
I thought you might like this.
Klyosov is publishing a series of articles on R1b and related burial practices. The latest one (in Russian, use google translate) at pereformat_ru/2014/05/arbins-2/ - I cannot link yet, replace the underscore with dot.

A small exerpt from his correspondence with linguist Klein about yet unpublished results:
Теперь вопрос – а почему я считаю, что там была гаплогруппа R1b? Объясняю. Это мне в частном порядке сообщил Л.С. Клейн, в январе 2014 года. Вот что он написал (и не в первый раз, это он мне сообщает последние три года):
Есть у меня ученик, Алексей Ковалев, он копал много лет в Монголии и Синьцзяне. Вот он поместил в Рос. Арх. Ежегоднике 2011 сенсационную статью «Великая чемурчекская миграция» – о происхождении чемурческский культуры Алтая и Синьцзяна прямиком из Западной и Южной Франции. Это III тыс. до н.э. Он связывает эту культуру с тохарами. У меня впечатление, что миграция доказана, а связь с тохарами вызывает ряд вопросов…

Полагаю, Вам будет интересно узнать, что мой ученик Алексей Ковалев, тот самый, который исследовал чемурчекскую культуру Алтая, Монголии и Синьцзяна (видимо, тохары), и выпустил сейчас уже две книги о ней, добился анализов ДНК по афанасьевцам и окуневцам. Два из трех афанасьевцев и один окуневец оказались R1b1 (M269), а один афанасьевец – R1b. Ковалев же имеет радиуглеродные даты по многим афанасьевцам: калибров. 3000-2600 до н.э… Чемурчекская культура совершенно четко из Франции.

Я ответил:
Советую А. Ковалеву передать, что ему стоит перед публикацией показать эти данные мне, чтобы потом не было конфуза. Он, надеюсь, имеет данные по трупоположению? …Я вовсе не исключаю, что в Южной Сибири были древние R1b, сам это описывал, и датировал по ДНК. Просто надо исключить неверные отнесения, и знать, кто определял эти R1b и R1b1, какие там гаплотипы (если их нет – это большой промах), и поставить это в исторический контекст. Думаю, что Вам это объяснять не надо, как и А. Ковалеву. Надеюсь, понятно, почему А. Ковалеву стоит со мной связаться?​

К сожалению, данных по трупоположению ни в одной статье А. Ковалева не оказалось. Если это так – непростительное упущение для археолога. И досадная упущенная возможность идентифицировать принадлежность останков к определенному роду, к тому же R1b, например.

Two out of three afanasievo remains and one okunevo remains tested R1b1 (M269) and one afanasievan – R1b.
 
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Yes we have Croatian potkovatiand Bulgarian podkovavam meaning«to shoe horses», O.K.
But a link between words likekovař/kowal/kovačand words likekobila/kobyla ? I think it'sgoing to far – the V >< B differenceis not an obstacle in a diachronic point of view and the /b>>v/evolution is very common in some languages, for the most betweenvowels – but in a same language at the same stage of history,without dialectal forms, it becomes an obstacle to the conclusion ofa common origin - &: the prononuciation is /v/ and /b/ in everyslavic language between vowels, so no sound according to otherconsonnant, whatever the spelling – all the slavic languages I saw(russian, polish, czech, serbian-croatian, bulgarian) present thesame opposition in these two meanings -
/v/>< /b/so... 2different roots, I bet -


theonly semantical link between the words concerning smith work andhorses in slavics are based on the «metal» notion, nothing else –the same occur in breton where the original «smith» equivalent, gov(gob- inceltic) is very often replaced by the word marichal/marchalof germanic origin and passedin it through french language – marichal / maréchal(marshall) derives fromgerm-(OHG) marah-skalkwhere the «horse» notion is evident (the smithes used to shoehorses with iron shoes) -


inrussian and polish there are two seemingly different roots for«smith-» or «smithy» or «to forge»: kov-and kuc- [koots] -
Ihave no idea of their possible link and the previous generic meaning-
veryhazardous hypothesis (fun): '°'= MY bets >< '*'= scholars bets-
kuts<< °kow+k+j ?°kow-d-s ? < - >°kow-ak-j ? >>kovac (monophtonguisons is common in slavic evolution (here /ou/ >>/u/) as well as lost of consonnants in groups) -
anI-Ean root *kau-would exist (scholars) : «to cut», «to prune» - Lat- cu-dere,cusum to beat, to forge», «toform» + incus, incudis,Italian incudine,French enclume«anvil», see Polish kowadlo«anvil» Germ-O-H-G houwan >> hauen : «to hew» – heu : «hay»>> French houe,houlette, hoyau – English tohew >> hay -
theCzech kovina «metal»could very well be the source and explanation and cut short otherspeculations?
#
kobila <<kobyla <<°kobula <<°kob-l << °kăb-lor°kăp-l,see caballusbut too capal/ceffyl(celticwhere the root seems being °kapp-l–) - ? an european root, perhaps non I-Ean ? -
&:in Kurdic I found in a dictionary the words: keil,kiayl «purerace horse», Turkic kehlanati – it's pure speculation for curiositylacking the old forms, knowing the phonetical evolution can send usvery far, so I don't know if we have here a cognate of°kabal-/°kappal???


alater loan to celtic (?) or other I-Ean 'kaval'could explain the form kovalbuthere again, kovalis not a one-bit word but a compound ofkov+al,as we can see with other slavic derived words on the same ground:kovačnica/ kowadlo/ kovati...

Russian kabil is the dog in the popular sense and it is also an insult
 
Hi,
I thought you might like this.
Klyosov is publishing a series of articles on R1b and related burial practices. The latest one (in Russian, use google translate) at pereformat_ru/2014/05/arbins-2/ - I cannot link yet, replace the underscore with dot.

A small exerpt from his correspondence with linguist Klein about yet unpublished results:


Two out of three afanasievo remains and one okunevo remains tested R1b1 (M269) and one afanasievan – R1b.

this is a big surprise

any idea when and where it will be published ?
 
this is a big surprise

any idea when and where it will be published ?

Nothing in the article about the publication date. It is to be by Klein's former student Kovalyov who's been digging in Mongolia and Xinjiang. They are linking the Chemurchek culture to a clear migration from France (surprise!) - you can find more in English. Klein isn't as certain as Kovalyov about a relation to the tokhar language. They radio-carbon calibrated the afanasievo remains to 3000-2600 b.c.

One thing, three years ago Klein decided to stick to Zhivotovskiy's evolutionary mutation rates, I wonder what they will do this time.
 
Nothing in the article about the publication date. It is to be by Klein's former student Kovalyov who's been digging in Mongolia and Xinjiang. They are linking the Chemurchek culture to a clear migration from France (surprise!) - you can find more in English. Klein isn't as certain as Kovalyov about a relation to the tokhar language. They radio-carbon calibrated the afanasievo remains to 3000-2600 b.c.

One thing, three years ago Klein decided to stick to Zhivotovskiy's evolutionary mutation rates, I wonder what they will do this time.

Thanks kosmonomad, can you possibly give a translation of the quotes between A.Klyosov and theoretical archeologist L. Klejn/Klein. Do both L. Klein and A. Kovalev have reason to believe a genetic ydna and or mtdna connection between France and Chemurchek culture in Western Mongolia ?
Is it the same as A.A. Kovalev
https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Ko...f_Eurasian_Studies._Vol._1_11_._2011._P._1-58

If it is can you translate #39 reference study where mtdna was found.
 
Thanks kosmonomad, can you possibly give a translation of the quotes between A.Klyosov and theoretical archeologist L. Klejn/Klein. Do both L. Klein and A. Kovalev have reason to believe a genetic ydna and or mtdna connection between France and Chemurchek culture in Western Mongolia ?
Is it the same as A.A. Kovalev

If it is can you translate #39 reference study where mtdna was found.


I am not sure this isn't the old-fashioned approach, not the paleolithic continuity model for R1b, not Zhivo's rates. I hope they have taken Klyosov's criticism and have gone for more than a 6- or 12-marker haplotypes which they ran through a y-dna predictor. No mention of any tested terminal SNPs - I hope they did at least some.
Such materials should be tested very thoroughly for the newest defining SNPs at the relevant level.


Klejn:
I have a student, Aleksey Kovalev, He has been excavating many years in Mongolia and Xinjiang. He published in The Russian Archeology Yearbook 2011 a sensational article "The great Chemurchek migration" - about origin of Chemurchek culture of Altay and Xinjiang directly form Western and Southern France. It is the 3rd millenium b.c. He links this culture to Tochars. I have the impression that the migration is confirmed, but the link to Tochars calls for a line-up of questions...

I think you will be interested to know that my student Alexei Kovalev , the man who investigated Chemurchek culture of Altai , Mongolia and Xinjiang (apparently Tochars) and released two books about it, did DNA tests on afanasievans and okunevans. Two out of three afanasievans and one okunevan were R1b1 (M269), one afanasievan - R1b1. Kovalev has radiocarbon ages of many afanasievans: calibrated 3000-2600 b.c. Chemurchek culture very clearly is from France.

Klyosov:
I advise to A. Kovalev that he shows the data to me before the publication, to avoid an embarrassment. I hope he has data on inhumation? ...I don't exclude at all that ancient R1b were in Southern Siberia, I myself described it and dated based on DNA. Simply we have to exclude false attribution and we should know who determined these R1b and R1b1, what sort of haplotypes (if they were not done - it's a big miss) , and put it in historical context. I think you do not need to be explained, like A. Kovalev. I hope it is clear why A. Kovalev should contact me.

These letters are from January.


Yes, Kovalev is the same man.

[39] Куликов Е.Е., Кирюшин Ю.Ф., Серегин Ю.А., Тишкин А.А., Полтараус А.Б., Результаты палеогенетических исследований (по материалам погребений младенцев на памятнике Березовая Лука) // Березовая Лука – поселение эпохи бронзы в Алейской степи. Барнаул: Изд-во Алт. ун-та, 2005. Т. 1. С. 216–224.
[39] Kulikov E.E., Kiryushin Yu.F., Seregin Yu.A., Tishkin A.A., Poltaraus A.B., "Results of paleogenetic research (materials on burials of infants at Berezovaya Luka)" // Berezovaya Luka - bronze age settlement in Alei Steppe. Barnaul: Altay University Press, 2005. T. 1. S. 216-224.
It isn't available in English.
 
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I'm sorry but you are definitely mistaken. There is no sign whatsoever of ergativity in Proto-Indo-European, because the language had an accusative case and a nominative case (as opposed to an ergative case and an absolutive case, which is the counterpart in ergative languages). Also, Hittite was an Indo-European language (part of the Anatolian language family, along with the Luwic languages), and Hittite was an accusative/nominative language. The same applies for the other 'old' Indo-European languages such as Greek, Latin and Sanskrit.

I should add that Hungarian and Finnish (both Uralic languages) are also are accusative/nominative languages, not ergative/absolutive, as are for example the Afroasiatic (including Berber, Egyptian and Semitic) languages.

It is not possible for Proto-Indo-European to have been a pidgin/creole, as it had a very complex grammar, and in general creole languages have a very simplified grammer.

I agree with what you have to say but Afroasiatic languages simply aren't ergative-absolutive, though proto-Berber and proto-Semitic might've displayed weak ergative features.

Either way, the theory according to what PIE is a pidgin or a creole is preposterous and absolutely shattered by facts on the ground.
 
posted on Ftdna

information circulating that Russian scientist and archaeologist Alexei Kovalev has recovered ancient R1b in some male remains from the Afanasievo Culture and the Okunevo Culture in the Altai Mountains in Mongolia. Two out of three Afanasievans and one Okunevan were R-M269, and one Afanasievan tested R-P25. Radiocarbon dates were 3000 - 2600 BC.

There are stone stelae present like those from the Yamnaya Culture that spread across Europe from Crimea all the way to Iberia.
 
posted on Ftdna

information circulating that Russian scientist and archaeologist Alexei Kovalev has recovered ancient R1b in some male remains from the Afanasievo Culture and the Okunevo Culture in the Altai Mountains in Mongolia. Two out of three Afanasievans and one Okunevan were R-M269, and one Afanasievan tested R-P25. Radiocarbon dates were 3000 - 2600 BC.

There are stone stelae present like those from the Yamnaya Culture that spread across Europe from Crimea all the way to Iberia.

Just M269 or pos. downstream clades not further tested yet? i.e. a possibility for it to be further downstream clades from M269;
 
Just M269 or pos. downstream clades not further tested yet? i.e. a possibility for it to be further downstream clades from M269;
Looking at the IE languages the intercultural exchange had to happen around 6-5 thousand years ago. We should be getting some data about mingling R1a and R1b at some point after that time.
 
Looking at the IE languages the intercultural exchange had to happen around 6-5 thousand years ago. We should be getting some data about mingling R1a and R1b at some point after that time.

If this message is correct about R1b-M269 in Afanasevo than that could mean that certain R1b clades did enter Europe to the west with the Indo-Europeans because both this east (Afanasevo) expansion as well as all the west (into Europe expansions) trace back to the common Yamna complex; But that would depend on which clades of M269 those were in Afanasevo and if that quoted/post is even correct; As for the languages the Afanasevo complex is linked to the Tocharians the only centum Indo-European tongue in the east (far far east) and a language which still shows common features with the Keltic branch and the Italic branch in r-endings and ā-subjunctive; If that message is correct than highly interesting;
 

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