Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: Genetic make up of the British Isles

  1. #1
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered

    Join Date
    26-11-10
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2


    Ethnic group
    Scottish/Irish
    Country: Germany



    Genetic make up of the British Isles



    Does anyone have any good information and/or studies taken showing the genetic make up of the people of the British Isles?

    Things i'm interested in finding out -
    How Germanic England actually is, or is it still mostly Celtic?
    Germanic areas of Scotland
    How similar Scottish and Irish genetics are
    Any possible information about the picts (feel like i'm pushing the boundaries here)
    Amounts of Y-Chromosome haplogroup I in the British Isles

    Also, whatever else anyone has. Thanks for any help :)

    Oh, and one last question - is it fair to say that Celts exist? I've used the term "celts"/"celtic people" before and people have gotten angry against it saying there are no such thing as celts and never have been as it is 'a created victorian term". I don't understand that, because then surely if celts don't exist then Germanic people don't and neither do Slavic?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    27-12-09
    Posts
    265
    Points
    3,029
    Level
    15
    Points: 3,029, Level: 15
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 21
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    English with some recent Norwegian and more distant Huguenot, and dashes from the 'Celtic Fringe'.
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Bare man View Post
    Does anyone have any good information and/or studies taken showing the genetic make up of the people of the British Isles?

    Things i'm interested in finding out -
    How Germanic England actually is, or is it still mostly Celtic?
    Germanic areas of Scotland
    How similar Scottish and Irish genetics are
    Any possible information about the picts (feel like i'm pushing the boundaries here)
    Amounts of Y-Chromosome haplogroup I in the British Isles

    Also, whatever else anyone has. Thanks for any help :)

    Oh, and one last question - is it fair to say that Celts exist? I've used the term "celts"/"celtic people" before and people have gotten angry against it saying there are no such thing as celts and never have been as it is 'a created victorian term". I don't understand that, because then surely if celts don't exist then Germanic people don't and neither do Slavic?
    This thread asks essentially the same questions as does an existing thread in Ydna forum.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    320
    Points
    3,016
    Level
    15
    Points: 3,016, Level: 15
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 34
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Country: Romania



    The existence of the celts if first atested by the galeic languages (which are celtic languages),as irish,scotish,welsh are.You are living in Germany, you say you are irish,you ever visited Ireland?
    If you did not,go search on youtube and see there people speaking in irish language,which is a celtic language.
    Second,there is some nordid profile clearly asociated with celtic ancestry, called keltic nordid,as a lot of people in UK looks (about 25%-30% from the people in UK).
    If you have some R1b branch on paternal line,that is good only for history,what matters most is how you look like,for example even if you find common R1b subclades in Italy/Spain and UK,people are not looking same.
    Those from Italy are usually brown/dark brown/black eyed and darker skin,with softer facial lines etc while those in UK are usually with green/blue eyes/light eyes and diferent look of their faces,a little straighter lines,etc.
    In old Europe only thracians and celts were red haired,so in UK you have a lot of people red haired,because of the celts first and second because of those vikings who came and raided there and some even settled there,who were red haired also.(I do consider those vikings red haired,descendants of thracians from Troy).That red haired pretty present in UK (think most common is in Scotland) is a serious proof of celtic ancestry.
    Beside,except Y DNA there is also maternal DNA,H is a large group for mt-dna (which is most common in Europe ),for sure it haves a lot of sub-branches,but research should be done to see them.
    Go search a little on google images "keltic nordid" to make an ideea,about how people of this profile looks.
    Just searched on google,highest percent of red heads from Europe is in Scotland,about 13% of the population and 2nd in Ireland,10% of the people.
    Since you asked about genetics,if you see R1a in Scotland/Ireland is very very likely viking norse ancestry.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,683
    Points
    9,338
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,338, Level: 28
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 12
    Overall activity: 58.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The existence of the celts if first atested by the galeic languages (which are celtic languages),as irish,scotish,welsh are.You are living in Germany, you say you are irish,you ever visited Ireland?
    If you did not,go search on youtube and see there people speaking in irish language,which is a celtic language.
    Second,there is some nordid profile clearly asociated with celtic ancestry, called keltic nordid,as a lot of people in UK looks (about 25%-30% from the people in UK).
    If you have some R1b branch on paternal line,that is good only for history,what matters most is how you look like,for example even if you find common R1b subclades in Italy/Spain and UK,people are not looking same.
    Those from Italy are usually brown/dark brown/black eyed and darker skin,with softer facial lines etc while those in UK are usually with green/blue eyes/light eyes and diferent look of their faces,a little straighter lines,etc.
    In old Europe only thracians and celts were red haired,so in UK you have a lot of people red haired,because of the celts first and second because of those vikings who came and raided there and some even settled there,who were red haired also.(I do consider those vikings red haired,descendants of thracians from Troy).That red haired pretty present in UK (think most common is in Scotland) is a serious proof of celtic ancestry.
    Beside,except Y DNA there is also maternal DNA,H is a large group for mt-dna (which is most common in Europe ),for sure it haves a lot of sub-branches,but research should be done to see them.
    Go search a little on google images "keltic nordid" to make an ideea,about how people of this profile looks.
    Just searched on google,highest percent of red heads from Europe is in Scotland,about 13% of the population and 2nd in Ireland,10% of the people.
    Since you asked about genetics,if you see R1a in Scotland/Ireland is very very likely viking norse ancestry.
    just details:
    'gaelic' is the name for irish and scottish Gaedhlig and old Manx languages - welsh, breton and extinct cornish was named 'brittonic' -
    the so called "keltic nordid" or "Iron Age keltic nordic" is a pseudo collective phenotype forged on metric means- a mixture of predominant dolichocephalic types and seldomer brachycephalic types, so not very homogenous - it why typical 'keltic nordic' types are so hard to show on photo's, contrary to typical 'nordic' type -
    what we can say about this 'keltic ...' is that this crossing was common among almost all the celtic elites, gaelic or brittonic, producing always very closed metric means, (and that these means was common also among elites of Scythes and first Slavs, according to COON, if we trust him) - sure the true 'nordic' element was the heavier in the mixture, it is difficult to go further because crossings can cause features that do not lie in the very middle of the parents ones (genetic dominance and recessivity)

  5. #5
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-02-12
    Posts
    1
    Points
    644
    Level
    6
    Points: 644, Level: 6
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 106
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada-British Columbia



    I am new to this site and made the following post in another section of the site but it maybe better re-posted here:

    I was looking at the "Atlas of the Celts" University College Dublin. It has a terific history of the Celts and I noticed that in the presentation maps they covered for Celtic R1b distribution are identical to the Circle SNP distribution charts you see in many DNA sites. It almost looks like the R1b and probably all R DNA SNP variations should be named Celtic. Like Celtic Russians, Celtic Norse, Celtic Irish etc. The University College Dublin defines Celtic people as those ancient people who speak Galeic. It certainly ooks like Celtic should be the definition for with all R Haplo clasifications? Any comments?

    What I was getting at in the above post is that as noted above the U of D refers to Celtic people as those who speak gaelic and display a map of Europe (in 400 bc ?) outlining where these Celtic people resided over the years. When the plot of the genetic DNA charts are placed on this celtic map the outline certainly is identical to the R Haplotype charts. To me this certainly indicates that the R DNA can all be described as Celtic. Even the those R1a who are of Celtic viking norse ancestry.


    scotsman

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album picturesOverdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    L.D.Brousse's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-03-12
    Posts
    141
    Points
    2,304
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,304, Level: 13
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a1a1b5aSry2627

    Ethnic group
    French Celtic German
    Country: USA - Indiana



    Red Hair has nothing to do with being Celtic it is caused by a recessive gene. I fought in Iraq in 2008 and the Kurdish population has many red heads. It is hard to guess what a ancient population looked like. The first Celtic peoples encountered and wrote about came from the Greeks These Celtic tribes lived in SW France in many ways I find the term Celtic to be generic as the Greeks and Romans considered most people in Europe savages. Much how we did here in the USA with the Indians. France to is Celt heavy even my currant surname of Bruce which my 8th Great Grandfather took when he came to America in 1700 means from the thickets his French name was Brousse means from the bush or forest to me almost the same names

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,948
    Points
    13,455
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,455, Level: 35
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 595
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    Red Hair has nothing to do with being Celtic it is caused by a recessive gene. I fought in Iraq in 2008 and the Kurdish population has many red heads. It is hard to guess what a ancient population looked like. The first Celtic peoples encountered and wrote about came from the Greeks These Celtic tribes lived in SW France in many ways I find the term Celtic to be generic as the Greeks and Romans considered most people in Europe savages. Much how we did here in the USA with the Indians
    The term "Celt" wasn't generic at all. The term "Celt" (rendered into Greek as "Keltoi", and into Latin as "Celtae") was the self-designation of the people that the Romans generally refered to as Gauls. The ancient Irish and British, while speaking also Celtic languages, didn't refer to themselves as "Celts", and neither did the Romans refer to them as such.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album picturesOverdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    L.D.Brousse's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-03-12
    Posts
    141
    Points
    2,304
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,304, Level: 13
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a1a1b5aSry2627

    Ethnic group
    French Celtic German
    Country: USA - Indiana



    Even know it's nice to see early reports about the Celtic people from like the Greeks. Their depictions are really out there. Thundering voices talk in riddles constantly spiking their hair tall I think the average height of a Celtic male was not to far off from todays averages 5'10" and up but after mixing I'm sure they dropped off. Scotland and other small pockets lucked out and retained their Celtic Identity's where as Gaul was pretty much Romanized as London and other places

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album picturesOverdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    L.D.Brousse's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-03-12
    Posts
    141
    Points
    2,304
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,304, Level: 13
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a1a1b5aSry2627

    Ethnic group
    French Celtic German
    Country: USA - Indiana



    As far as if Celts exist today I saw the question before and the answer was yes they are still where they have always been. most do not retain any language customs but are still the original peoples

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album pictures1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Eochaidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-01-10
    Posts
    70
    Points
    3,914
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,914, Level: 18
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 336
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient names for the Irish

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The ancient Irish and British, while speaking also Celtic languages, didn't refer to themselves as "Celts", and neither did the Romans refer to them as such.
    My Gaelic scholar (who reads the old manuscripts for me), once sent me the following about the ancient names applied to the Irish.

    "One problem I've noticed with the idea of a "Goidelic" invasion - each of the 3 names for the "Goidels" or Gaeil popularized by the Book of Invasions are exonyms. Plus, they don't remotely satisfy/fulfill the Celtic tribal concept of "the god my people swear by". Those 3 names are:
    1. Goidheal & variations - from Old Brythonnic gwyddel (and variations) = 'wild ones', applied to Irish invaders/marauders of Roman Britain
    2. Scotti - seemingly from Latin, perhaps ultimately derived from the Greek word skotos- darkness (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti)
    3. Uí Míleadh = descendants of the Miletus (Latin for 'soldier') Ed. Milesians or sons of Mil.

    So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Dál Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Dál Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Féini. Earlier spellings - Féni, Féne, etc.
    The etymological affinity of the name "Féni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention."

    He later told me that Féni came to mean all of the "free" peoples of Ireland.

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,948
    Points
    13,455
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,455, Level: 35
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 595
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    My Gaelic scholar (who reads the old manuscripts for me), once sent me the following about the ancient names applied to the Irish.

    "One problem I've noticed with the idea of a "Goidelic" invasion - each of the 3 names for the "Goidels" or Gaeil popularized by the Book of Invasions are exonyms. Plus, they don't remotely satisfy/fulfill the Celtic tribal concept of "the god my people swear by". Those 3 names are:
    1. Goidheal & variations - from Old Brythonnic gwyddel (and variations) = 'wild ones', applied to Irish invaders/marauders of Roman Britain
    2. Scotti - seemingly from Latin, perhaps ultimately derived from the Greek word skotos- darkness (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti)
    3. Uí Míleadh = descendants of the Miletus (Latin for 'soldier') Ed. Milesians or sons of Mil.

    So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Dál Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Dál Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Féini. Earlier spellings - Féni, Féne, etc.
    The etymological affinity of the name "Féni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention."

    He later told me that Féni came to mean all of the "free" peoples of Ireland.
    This is an excellent find. I certainly think that there's a connection between the term "Féni" and "Veneti", even if only etymological (I wouldn't rule out a deeper connection offhand, however). What is also worthy of note in this context is that Ptolemy mentions a Pictish tribe, the Venicones. The first part of this name certainly is of the same root.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Posts
    1,575
    Points
    8,629
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,629, Level: 27
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 121
    Overall activity: 55.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T- CTS12108
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    This is an excellent find. I certainly think that there's a connection between the term "Féni" and "Veneti", even if only etymological (I wouldn't rule out a deeper connection offhand, however). What is also worthy of note in this context is that Ptolemy mentions a Pictish tribe, the Venicones. The first part of this name certainly is of the same root.
    amazing, I presented this 6 months ago and stated I was wrong.

    Well according to roman script the vanelli are related to the Armorica veneti and area around Fyfe scotland was
    the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu)


    If feni = free, then by word association ( always are dangerous thing ), but my grandfather stated that the very old venetian opera house La FENIce meant the freed.
    IMO, the feni = finnic who where related to the pictic from 3000BC boat people. That is , north sweden and north finland where finnic and north norway was pictic along with most of the british isles
    Sorry- recently having issues with log and fonts on this site

  13. #13
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,948
    Points
    13,455
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,455, Level: 35
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 595
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    amazing, I presented this 6 months ago and stated I was wrong.

    Well according to roman script the vanelli are related to the Armorica veneti and area around Fyfe scotland was
    the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu)


    If feni = free, then by word association ( always are dangerous thing ), but my grandfather stated that the very old venetian opera house La FENIce meant the freed.
    IMO, the feni = finnic who where related to the pictic from 3000BC boat people. That is , north sweden and north finland where finnic and north norway was pictic along with most of the british isles
    Sorry- recently having issues with log and fonts on this site
    Sorry, that really is nonsense. The term "Féni" certainly has nothing to do with Finnic. The development *w > *f is a sound shift that is exclusive to Irish/Goidelic, and it only occured around the 6th century AD, and before that, it would have been something akin to Wen- in Irish. Also, if you look at the available names, the Picts clearly were a Celtic people, speaking a language akin to Gaulish and (ancient) Brythonic.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album picturesOverdrive1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    L.D.Brousse's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-03-12
    Posts
    141
    Points
    2,304
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,304, Level: 13
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a1a1b5aSry2627

    Ethnic group
    French Celtic German
    Country: USA - Indiana



    One question I have seen are the Pictone tribe of SW France the same people as the Picts

  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    Created Album pictures1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience Points
    hope's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-02-12
    Posts
    465
    Points
    5,083
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,083, Level: 21
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 467
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: UK - Northern Ireland



    The Veniconii of Scotland may be the same tribe who did indeed later become known as Picts in Scotland. Also there were Veniconni in Ireland around Donegal.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, that really is nonsense. The term "Féni" certainly has nothing to do with Finnic. The development *w > *f is a sound shift that is exclusive to Irish/Goidelic, and it only occured around the 6th century AD, and before that, it would have been something akin to Wen- in Irish. Also, if you look at the available names, the Picts clearly were a Celtic people, speaking a language akin to Gaulish and (ancient) Brythonic.
    so you clearly refer to information on this site

    http://www.britam.org/AsherIre.html


    what proof do you have that pictic is celtic?. pictic is far older than celtic, probably by 2000 years


    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ictish&f=false

    from page 1444 is a good read on pictish language

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album pictures1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Eochaidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-01-10
    Posts
    70
    Points
    3,914
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,914, Level: 18
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 336
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    The Féini and yDNA M222 in Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I certainly think that there's a connection between the term "Féni" and "Veneti", even if only etymological (I wouldn't rule out a deeper connection offhand, however). What is also worthy of note in this context is that Ptolemy mentions a Pictish tribe, the Venicones. The first part of this name certainly is of the same root.
    The conext of my quote about names for the Irish was the spread of yDNA M222 in Ireland.

    The Féini gave rise to the Dál Chuinn or the People of Conn and this Conn was Conn of the Hundred Battles who gave rise to the Connachta. The most famous of the Connachta was Niall Noígíallach, or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages who was erroneously credited with originating M222. The Connachta, or their ruling families at least, were/are M222 which is most prevalent in Ireland in the west (Connacht) and north (Ulster).

    Less well studied is that the enemies of the Connachta in the Ulster Cycle stories, the Uliad, or at least their ruling family the Dál Fiatach, were also M222. 14 of 19 in the original McEvoy study for their surname and one other.

    My scholar also said this:
    "Therefore, as Byrne points out, it's clear that the earliest uses of Féini, as here seen even in an 8th century A.D. Uí Néill context, are intended to mean the Dál Chuinn (Connachta) and their branch called Uí Néill.

    So, to sum up. the Féini were one of the most important peoples of Ireland at the dawn of Irish history. They are the direct ancestors of the Dál Chuinn and Uí Néill. Some have called attention to the possibility that the name of the Féini developed from the name of the Gaulish Veneti of the Armorican Peninsula. Accordingly, if Féini might possibly come from Veneti, I'm guessing that it could also possibly come from Veniconi / Venicnii, an obviously Q-Celtic word. But here we'd need an expert on the development of Archaic Irish to advise us.

    Someone noted that the root-word Conn (Dál Chuinn, Connachta) might possibly be seen in the word Veniconi. Perhaps they're right. Similarly, it's generally agreed that the Irish words gom ('fool') and amadán ('fool') both developed from different parts of the Indo-European root-word *gemadan, which is also the ancestor of the English word 'mad'. Therefore, I think it's possible that both "Féini" and "Conn" developed from Veniconi."

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,948
    Points
    13,455
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,455, Level: 35
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 595
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so you clearly refer to information on this site

    http://www.britam.org/AsherIre.html
    No. Why do you post links to such charlatan websites, anyways?

    what proof do you have that pictic is celtic?. pictic is far older than celtic, probably by 2000 years

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ictish&f=false

    from page 1444 is a good read on pictish language
    I honestly find it incomprehensable that you make such a claim about the Pictish language, especially given that the same source that you cite claims otherwise. If you take a look at the quote below (found on page 1593 of the link you provided):

    "For Pictish, the language of the Pictish kingdom(s) north of the Firth of Forth, only proper-name and epigraphic evidence remains. At least from the former, it is clear that it was a P-Celtic language, closely related to Cumbric and hence to early Welsh and the other Brythonic languages."

    By the way, I also recommend reading this concerning the language of the Picts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    The conext of my quote about names for the Irish was the spread of yDNA M222 in Ireland.

    The Féini gave rise to the Dál Chuinn or the People of Conn and this Conn was Conn of the Hundred Battles who gave rise to the Connachta. The most famous of the Connachta was Niall Noígíallach, or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages who was erroneously credited with originating M222. The Connachta, or their ruling families at least, were/are M222 which is most prevalent in Ireland in the west (Connacht) and north (Ulster).

    Less well studied is that the enemies of the Connachta in the Ulster Cycle stories, the Uliad, or at least their ruling family the Dál Fiatach, were also M222. 14 of 19 in the original McEvoy study for their surname and one other.

    My scholar also said this:
    "Therefore, as Byrne points out, it's clear that the earliest uses of Féini, as here seen even in an 8th century A.D. Uí Néill context, are intended to mean the Dál Chuinn (Connachta) and their branch called Uí Néill.

    So, to sum up. the Féini were one of the most important peoples of Ireland at the dawn of Irish history. They are the direct ancestors of the Dál Chuinn and Uí Néill. Some have called attention to the possibility that the name of the Féini developed from the name of the Gaulish Veneti of the Armorican Peninsula. Accordingly, if Féini might possibly come from Veneti, I'm guessing that it could also possibly come from Veniconi / Venicnii, an obviously Q-Celtic word. But here we'd need an expert on the development of Archaic Irish to advise us.

    Someone noted that the root-word Conn (Dál Chuinn, Connachta) might possibly be seen in the word Veniconi. Perhaps they're right. Similarly, it's generally agreed that the Irish words gom ('fool') and amadán ('fool') both developed from different parts of the Indo-European root-word *gemadan, which is also the ancestor of the English word 'mad'. Therefore, I think it's possible that both "Féini" and "Conn" developed from Veniconi."
    I think the etymology of the second element in "Venicones" is a different one, namely related to the Celtic word for "dog" (Old Irish "cú", Welsh "ci" - which is a cognate with Latin "canis" and English "hound"). The link I provided above (on page 21) gives the name "Venicones" as "kindred hounds". Also, there's nothing in that name that would be diagnostic of Q/P-Celtic. Ancient Irish retained the *kw sound of Proto-Celtic (which was rendered into /k/ and /x/ in Old Irish). Concerning the Connachta, I don't think there's any relationship with the Veniconi. Ptolemy mentions a tribe in the west of Ireland that is variably rendered as "Cancani" or "Gangani", and in my opinion the name is probably related with the name "Connacht".

    Getting back to genetics, you're making a very interesting point that R1b-M222 isn't just restricted to the Connachta and Niall of the Nine Hostages.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Created Album pictures1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Eochaidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-01-10
    Posts
    70
    Points
    3,914
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,914, Level: 18
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 336
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I think the etymology of the second element in "Venicones" is a different one, namely related to the Celtic word for "dog" (Old Irish "cú", Welsh "ci" - which is a cognate with Latin "canis" and English "hound"). The link I provided above (on page 21) gives the name "Venicones" as "kindred hounds".
    I don't know enough about etymology to really comment on your Forsythe quote of Koch, but I know something of ancient Irish tribal naming patterns, so I can say this.

    Koch showed that Venicones is literally 'kindred hounds'. This would be a very unusual name for an Irish tribe, who always had an ancestor god or a man deified as a god in their name. With the different spellings of Veniconi and my lack of understanding of the case etc, used in the word, I'm not sure if this makes grammatical sense. But, if you read it as 'kindred of Hound', where Hound is the ancestor demi-god, (Cu or Conn in this case), then it makes tribal sense.

    And in fact, this is just what Dál Chuinn means. Dál is a very old way to form a tribal name and is usually translated as 'Share of Conn' or 'Share of Hound' and this is not too far from 'Kindred of Hound/Conn'.

    Coincidentally, Cu was often used as part of a royal name. The name Cu Uladh, meaning Hound of Ulster, was very common among the Dál Fiatach kings (and others), right up to the Norman invasion.

    Niall Noígíallach and the Veniconi.

    Here is a bit more about Niall and his move north from Connacht to Ulster.

    Modern scholarship has re-evaluated the events of the fall of Ulster and it's capital Emain Macha at the end of the ancient period. It is now believed that this occurred in the mid fifth century and that Niall Noígíallach oversaw it.

    Byrne believes that Niall helped the Airgíalla (Oriel) overthrow the Ulster king and set up an independant kingdom, subject to him. Airgíalla is usually translated as 'Hostage Givers', (except on Wikipedia). There were nine small kingdoms or tuatha in Airgíalla and Niall is called 'of the Nine Hostages', so his name makes sense without having to include Gaul etc.

    Niall himself never lived in Airgíalla, he set up a new kingdom near the Inishowen Penninsula which is in the far northwest of Ireland in the modern county Donegal.

    As can be seen in the two maps below, Ptolemy places the Veniconi right in the middle of Donegal, so it might be possible to say that Niall was just going home.

    These maps are taken with thanks from the excellent site "Irish History in Maps".


  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    Created Album pictures1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience Points
    hope's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-02-12
    Posts
    465
    Points
    5,083
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,083, Level: 21
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 467
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: UK - Northern Ireland



    There were quite a few tribes but do you know anything about the Senchineoil..they lived around Galway and Roscommon I think? Can`t seem to find anything about them except for a few lines in wickipedia.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    No. Why do you post links to such charlatan websites, anyways?
    firstly, the link i provided was only for the maps as they are accurate.

    I honestly find it incomprehensable that you make such a claim about the Pictish language, especially given that the same source that you cite claims otherwise. If you take a look at the quote below (found on page 1593 of the link you provided):

    "For Pictish, the language of the Pictish kingdom(s) north of the Firth of Forth, only proper-name and epigraphic evidence remains. At least from the former, it is clear that it was a P-Celtic language, closely related to Cumbric and hence to early Welsh and the other Brythonic languages."

    By the way, I also recommend reading this concerning the language of the Picts.
    So its recorded that the celts arrived in Britain around 500BC, then what was the pictish language before this?

    Some historians say the picts where from western France related to the basques, some say they are related to the spanish Galicians and others say they where scandinavian people as they where great seafarers.

    The Romans only mentioned them once physically
    "Venit et extremis legio praetenta Britannis, Quae Scotto dat frena truci ferronque notatas Perlegit examines Picto moriente figuras"


    - The Romans called this pre-Celtic people Pictii, or "Painted ones"
    - The Picts spoke a non-Celtic language, although many Celtophiles feel the Picts spoke a Brythonic-Gaulish form of Celtic language. As I stated, since celtic only arrived in britain from 500BC, the pre langauge of the islands was not celtic based.

    Again I will ask the question, is celtic related to a language or a people. .........my answer is that it is a language.

  22. #22
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Posts
    1,076
    Points
    18,190
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,190, Level: 41
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 760
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan
    Country: Italy



    phenotype i associate with celtic people and also with pontid like people of eastern europe








  23. #23
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Posts
    1,076
    Points
    18,190
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,190, Level: 41
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 760
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan
    Country: Italy



    I think more eastwards you go on the british isles you enconter more germanic types, also blondism studies says the eastern parts of the british isles are more lighter haired and more germanic, while the western parts are more celtic as well as more dark haired

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    phenotype i associate with celtic people and also with pontid like people of eastern europe







    apart from the last one, they all look Austrian

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,683
    Points
    9,338
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,338, Level: 28
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 12
    Overall activity: 58.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    firstly, the link i provided was only for the maps as they are accurate.



    So its recorded that the celts arrived in Britain around 500BC, then what was the pictish language before this?




    there is no good answer today:
    firstable, we do not know seriously if there were not Celtic speakers before the dates you mention -
    It is sure than the historical Pictish (Cruithni/Pretani?) people of Eastern Scoltand spoke PRINCIPALLY a brittonic celtic language - it is of no worth dispute that - someones speak about an other language spoken there and that would be neither celtic nor indo-european - let's note that non-celtic does not signify non-indo-européean (some old rivers names of Scotland could be of a previous indo-european stock) -


    Some historians say the picts where from western France related to the basques, some say they are related to the spanish Galicians and others say they where scandinavian people as they where great seafarers.

    for western France, this is based on the name of the gaulish tribe of PICTONS? I suppose - nothing more to prove nothing only maybe the too quick conclusions about Y-DNA - What I red and applies to the proto-historical territory of future Picts lands is that people came there from EASTERN GAUL, practizing cremation and coming not far from present Switzerland - in their mixture a lot of them was phenotypically 'alpine-looking' (brachycephalic) as a lot of Celts of Eastern Gaul (a little taste of 'dinaric' too, surely, from the Beaker period along the Rhine) - the pure 'nordic' concept of Celts is a dream - today Fifeshire is still a place of mesocephaly in the Isles (index more than 80 in the 30's), with Western Ireland - imput of gaulish Celts !

    The Romans only mentioned them once physically
    "Venit et extremis legio praetenta Britannis, Quae Scotto dat frena truci ferronque notatas Perlegit examines Picto moriente figuras"


    - The Romans called this pre-Celtic people Pictii, or "Painted ones"
    - The Picts spoke a non-Celtic language, although many Celtophiles feel the Picts spoke a Brythonic-Gaulish form of Celtic language. As I stated, since celtic only arrived in britain from 500BC, the pre langauge of the islands was not celtic based.

    Pict is an historical concept I believe - SO, before that, there were Caledonians that looked physically closed enough to some sorts of Celts too - I'm not the Bible, so you could find more precise and reliable details on the forum BREIZH BERTAEYN BRITTANY on the web -

    Again I will ask the question, is celtic related to a language or a people. .........my answer is that it is a language.
    related to a language because surely the first proto-historical Celts did acculture some 'indigene' people of the Alps and Western Europe, their demic previous imput being erased in the historical celtic populations

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic make-up of France
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 12-02-13, 00:49
  2. I2a2b-Isles and Ireland
    By Keegah in forum I2
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 28-11-12, 22:33
  3. Genetic make-up of Europe
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 114
    Last Post: 28-07-12, 04:38
  4. Genetic History of the British Isles [book thread]
    By Blau in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-08-11, 12:23
  5. Genetic make-up of France
    By Maciamo in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 22-03-08, 20:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •