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Thread: Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    its interesting,as we ere usually say "Švabe" as nickname for all "Njemce"(Germans),and Švabe means Suebi(i think) in our way of saying,since it was our general or collective knowledge that Germans descended from Swabians(Suebi?)
    Great observation, and it means that Suebi were the biggest-most eastern germanic tribe Slavs incounter expending west. Or the one that gave them most resistance.
    In Poland word Shvab is more of a derogatory flavour, niemiec is neutral. Not sure how it is in other Slavic countries, or if negative meaning showed up recently and was neutral in the past?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    There is one good argument in favor of Visigoth origin of I2b1.

    I believe that Visigoths had to have significant frequencies of I1 also. But similarly I1 is not found in Iberian regions conquered by them.

    This needs explanation and it could be like following one. Goths were forced to Pannonia and Balkans by Huns, and this migration was real and massive because it was the way for them to save their lives. Unlike that, conquests of Iberia and Italy would actually be result of ambition of Gothic elite followed by a minor part of the tribe loyal to them. Most of the ordinary Goths abandoned the elite in turbulent circumstances.

    Here is one map of I1 distribution, it looks good to me:

    I'm confused looking at this map. I don't sea even slightest elevation of I1 on North side of Black Sea. We know that Goths lived there for few hundred years as a ruling/dominant tribe, and they should have left their I1 there, the same way we see elevated I2b1 level there.
    Did they isolate themselves from locals and never mingled?
    Was I1 any dominant in Goths?
    But if they had lots of I1 and they didn't leave a mark around Black Sea, it means that they couldn't possibly leave any I2b1 either, right? Can you leave one and not leave the other?
    Maybe the map is low resolution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Great observation, and it means that Suebi were the biggest-most eastern germanic tribe Slavs incounter expending west. Or the one that gave them most resistance.
    In Poland word Shvab is more of a derogatory flavour, niemiec is neutral. Not sure how it is in other Slavic countries, or if negative meaning showed up recently and was neutral in the past?
    in Serbia Nemci is also neutral and official, while Svabe can be somewhat derogative but I think is more jargon or casual speaking than offending...

    good point, that for Slavs tribal name Suebs (Svabe) is identical to Germans(Nemci), and not part of Germans....meaning that Suebi were the core germanic tribe at least in area of contact with pre-Slavic people... they were dominantly I1 carriers, we can see that from their genetic imprint in Iberia




    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    I'm confused looking at this map. I don't sea even slightest elevation of I1 on North side of Black Sea. We know that Goths lived there for few hundred years as a ruling/dominant tribe, and they should have left their I1 there, the same way we see elevated I2b1 level there.
    Did they isolate themselves from locals and never mingled?
    Was I1 any dominant in Goths?
    But if they had lots of I1 and they didn't leave a mark around Black Sea, it means that they couldn't possibly leave any I2b1 either, right? Can you leave one and not leave the other?
    Maybe the map is low resolution?
    map is incorrect in sense that in Iberian peninsula there should be, as on other haplogroup I maps, lot of I1 in area of northwest Spain and north Portugal - that hotspot matches Suebi settlements...

    if you go to familytreee dna I1 project, all except 1 of I1 samples for Spain are from that area...
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
    also in area north of Black sea where Goths lived for long time are no I1 samples

    I think that Goths were not I1 carriers... maybe marginally but not as main haplogroup...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm confused looking at this map. I don't sea even slightest elevation of I1 on North side of Black Sea. We know that Goths lived there for few hundred years as a ruling/dominant tribe, and they should have left their I1 there, the same way we see elevated I2b1 level there.
    Did they isolate themselves from locals and never mingled?
    Was I1 any dominant in Goths?
    But if they had lots of I1 and they didn't leave a mark around Black Sea, it means that they couldn't possibly leave any I2b1 either, right? Can you leave one and not leave the other?
    Maybe the map is low resolution?
    There are couple of issues about maps. One is that I1 map shows higher scale of frequencies than I2b1 map. And one more thing as a reminder, maps are not perfect tools and we can use them to get some ideas, but we should not blindly stick to them.

    It is hard to answer your questions. It is not much known how many Goths remained on Black Sea shores after Huns came. I think that object of the interest here should be “when and with what people did I1 come to Balkans?”, simply because there are much more data about this region. If we answer that we may get answers about what happened further on the East.

    I1 in Southeast Europe has its maximum values in Pannonia and Greek Macedonia. I think there is no way I1 could preserve these maximums during early middle ages. Migration waves were very strong and these two regions (Pannonia and Macedonia) were most interesting to newcomers, because of the land but also because of the wealth of close by Byzantine Empire. These same regions would later be settled by the Slavs also, and I think this is not a coincidence.

    Mainly because of the reasons I’ve just wrote, my opinion is that I1 came to Balkans during Early middle ages, after Huns and before Slavs. Huns “cleaned” some regions for I1, but when Avars and Slavs came they pushed I1 and I2b1 to their present location. Only tribes which fit into this story are Germanic tribes, mostly Goths (both Visigoths and Ostrogoths), but also Gepids in Pannonia and some Heruli. I had (have) some doubts about I2b1, but I’m pretty sure about I1 is brought by these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Visigoths must have left bigger impact in genetics of Spain than in the one of Serbia, but spread of I1 contradicts this... let's forget for a moment Goths as key donor of I1 to Balkans... after all they might have been dominantly some other haplogroup...
    It is good that you are trying to find some other source of I1, but saying that "Visigoths must have left bigger impact in genetics of Spain than in the one of Serbia" should be explained. For example my opinion is opposite.


    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    what do you think about Scordisci as a key source of I1 in Balkan? they fit well into haplogroup I tribal name pattern.....
    There is no way Scordisci would remain in the same region during Early middle ages. Changes in population of Southeast Europe were large, and in that region especially.

    I think it is not that compliacted:
    - There were indigenous people of SE Europe
    - Than Germanic tribes came (4th-5th century pushed by Huns)
    - Than Slavs came (6th-7th century partly pushed by Avars)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    meaning that Suebi were the core germanic tribe at least in area of contact with pre-Slavic people... they were dominantly I1 carriers, we can see that from their genetic imprint in Iberia
    This same region settled by Suebi (with maximum I1 in Iberia) also has maximum for R1b-U106 in Iberia. R1b-U106 is clearly Germanic subclade. This brings into question that Suebi were predominantly I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    It is good that you are trying to find some other source of I1, but saying that "Visigoths must have left bigger impact in genetics of Spain than in the one of Serbia" should be explained. For example my opinion is opposite.
    Last settlement of Visigoths was Iberia. They were not there in small numbers. They were initially settled in southwest Gaul as Roman federati. It was big settlement, not just brief military conquest, From there, they have slowly extended their influence to Spain. Later they were pushed out from southwest France by Franks. If they were I1 or I2b1 their genetic impact must be visible in all those areas...

    there are two options:
    1) they were not dominantly one or both of those clades
    2) your maps are incorrect, as they shows that Visigoth settlement in southwest France and Iberia in fact correlates with complete lack of those haplogroups...

    In Iberia Visigoths are last settlers and thus their genetical impact must be very clear...
    In Serbia, after questionable settlement of Goths, there were equally questionable settlements of Gepids (mostly in Vojvodina), Avars, and later various Slavic people and in particular Serbs....


    There is no way Scordisci would remain in the same region during Early middle ages. Changes in population of Southeast Europe were large, and in that region especially.
    Scordisci were romanized... people stay living where they lived unless there is mass genocide and exodus... but this didnot happen in Serbia as obvious from preserved high E-V13 values... thus, elevated I1 levels can as well be due to previous inhabitants, in this case Scordisci, who by the way fit perfectly into haplogroup I tribal names pattern (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians)

    Also spread of I1 matches exactly spread of Scordisci (from Sar mountains on south to and including Vojvodina on north and than towards west along south shores of Pannonian plain - Slavonia area)...

    Goths I1 would show in Hungary, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, more or less equally strong as in Serbia...


    I think it is not that compliacted:
    - There were indigenous people of SE Europe
    - Than Germanic tribes came (4th-5th century pushed by Huns)
    - Than Slavs came (6th-7th century partly pushed by Avars)
    Sure, that was my first way of thinking...
    but now I think it might be oversimplified way of looking at it...
    thing is we do not know genetics of indigenous people, we do not know whether Goths were Germanic only by culture or also by haplogroup I,
    we do not know whether pre- south Slavs could have carried I1... if they carried abundance of I2a2 why would they not carry some I1 as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    This same region settled by Suebi (with maximum I1 in Iberia) also has maximum for R1b-U106 in Iberia. R1b-U106 is clearly Germanic subclade. This brings into question that Suebi were predominantly I1.
    that's not the point... point is that their I1 imprint is very clearly visible exactly in places of their settlement...... which seems not to be the case for areas settled by Visigoths...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Great observation, and it means that Suebi were the biggest-most eastern germanic tribe Slavs incounter expending west. Or the one that gave them most resistance.
    In Poland word Shvab is more of a derogatory flavour, niemiec is neutral. Not sure how it is in other Slavic countries, or if negative meaning showed up recently and was neutral in the past?
    Well its not derogatory per-se,but more a word that generalizezes German man strerotype,like you would say Yankee for US citizen.

    Njemac is neutral and our word for German,country Germany/Deutchland we call Njemačka.



    Now i wonder from who word "German" came from,German tribes didn't call them selfs like that as i can recall,was it from Romans perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Now i wonder from who word "German" came from,German tribes didn't call them selfs like that as i can recall,was it from Romans perhaps?
    it's interesting that in ancient east Europe, linguistically closest match to Deutch and Dutch are Dacians..

    name German comes from Germania... word Germania we find in Persia inside Iran of today, in the name of province Kerman/Germania/Zermanya... name there is ancient old and it meant meant "bravery/combat", likely related is the name Cimmerians or Gimmri which meant hero....Cimmerians in hostory appear in areas around Black sea and Caucasus area,
    700-800 BC we find Thraco-Cimmerians in east Europe

    however, Cimmerians were satem-speakers... they might have been second wave of haplogroup I settlers of Europe... likely I2a2 haplogroup...
    I propose that Sarmatians is the name that came from them...

    during Roman empire, areas north of Roman empire are divided in two parts:
    1) area where people live in households - Germania
    2) area where people live in nomadic way - Sarmatia...

    btw. old but likely better maps of I1 and I2b1 than the posted ones by Shetop



    I1 in Iberia matches Suebi, but not Visigoths
    in Balkans its hotspot is more in Bulgaria than in Serbia...



    I2b1 (former I1c) matches settlements of Goths match better...

    it is very likely that both Goths and Suebi also had some strong R1b branches...

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    @Dalmat. It's possible that in Poland shvab became more impolite term after last war.

    @Shetop
    There are couple of issues about maps. One is that I1 map shows higher scale of frequencies than I2b1 map. And one more thing as a reminder, maps are not perfect tools and we can use them to get some ideas, but we should not blindly stick to them.

    Yes, the current maps are with many mistakes and not great resolution. I'm not looking at scale of haplogroup, but more for contrasts between regions, in this case. For now we work with what we have, keeping in mind that the maps could be misleading.

    @how yes no
    thing is we do not know genetics of indigenous people, we do not know whether Goths were Germanic only by culture
    I was considering this too. It's possible that after 500 year (from moment they left Scandinavia to leaving Black Sea) they lost their original y haplogroups and acquired local once. From polish archeology we know that Goths coexisted with local population. We surely know that they were not killing and scorching on big scale. If they were more friendly, or open tolerant culture, it's possible that they mixed quite a bit with indigenous population.
    Let's say that it's true. Therefore they mostly enquired I2a and R1a from locals around the Black Sea. Let's see if there is an elevated level of these groups in Iberia in center of their settlements.

    In Spain the capital of Visigoths was Toledo and this map shows lots of I2a there:

    It's hard to say now if this I2a matches the Black Sea type. Is there a way to check it out? If in France there was a hot spot too, where they settled, the case would be sealed.
    I can't find a decent R1a map for Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    In Spain the capital of Visigoths was Toledo and this map shows lots of I2a there:

    It's hard to say now if this I2a matches the Black Sea type. Is there a way to check it out? If in France there was a hot spot too, where they settled, the case would be sealed.
    I can't find a decent R1a map for Iberia.
    Watch out that this is a map of all I2a. The variety found in Spain, Sardinia and most of western Europe is I2a1, while in eastern Europe almost 100% is I2a2. There is therefore no connection between them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    there are two options:
    1) they were not dominantly one or both of those clades
    2) your maps are incorrect, as they shows that Visigoth settlement in southwest France and Iberia in fact correlates with complete lack of those haplogroups...
    You forced me to serach for Visigoths.

    This study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/ showed 3.1% I1 in Catalonia and this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...d&searchtype=a showed 8.96% of I1+I2b1 in Midi-Pyrenees (France). Much of it could be from Visigoths.

    Btw I was inprecise when talking about Visigoths in Serbia. I had I1 as a whole in mind when I wrote that.

    My opinion is that I1 in Serbia is more from Ostrogoths than Visigoths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    in Balkans its hotspot is more in Bulgaria than in Serbia...
    There are two results for I1 Serbia, and they show 5-8%.
    Do you have some data for Bulgaria? Again, maps are not that reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I2b1 (former I1c) matches settlements of Goths match better...
    it is very likely that both Goths and Suebi also had some strong R1b branches...
    Have you ever heard of Moesian Goths?
    Were Ostrogoths mentioned in any other regions during their inhabitance of Moesia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Watch out that this is a map of all I2a. The variety found in Spain, Sardinia and most of western Europe is I2a1, while in eastern Europe almost 100% is I2a2. There is therefore no connection between them.
    this spread of I2a1 actually resembles the most what I would expect to see from Visigoth's imprint...
    I am complete amateur here, but I can imagine that it is theoretically possible that I2a1 was carried to Iberia by Goths and Vandals.
    In those times, if your tribe is moving away, you as individual do not want to stay behind... which explains why there is no I2a1 in previous settlements of Goths and Vandals in east Europe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    There are two results for I1 Serbia, and they show 5-8%.
    Do you have some data for Bulgaria? Again, maps are not that reliable.
    what I meant is that hotspot of I1 looked more as Bulgaria on that map...
    I tend to write and post without reading, and than to read posted and edit (because in preview mode spaces between lines are lost and I need to keep adding them) ...thing is I had last night weird issue (perhaps due to different ip address) that I could not edit my post and it was invisible until approved by admin...

    btw. looking at Bulgarian familytree dna project, I see only 1 I1 out of 75 samples... and one more that is just haplogroup I. to compare, there are 11 I2a2 samples (1 of them in Macedonia and 1 in Greece Macedonia)
    (22 markers are E-V13, 3 G2a & 3 G, 9 are R1a (2 of them from Macedonia), 5 are R1b - M269, there is some J as well)

    to conclude, you are right, hotspot of I1 is in Serbia not in Bulgaria

    btw. looking at spread of I1 in Balkans



    we can see that it seems to come from Germany rather than from areas around Black sea and it also shows no spread in directions of Goths movements (though the fast movements can never be seen on haplogroup maps, only the ones where settlements spread slowly)

    I can imagine that it origins mostly from Gepids in Serbia and Langobards in Austria/Slovenia/west Pannonia... in fact, we know from history that in 630 Ad in Pannonia Byzantian troops found no traces of Avars, only Gepids...we also know that part of Gepids did move towards Italy... so the hotspot near north Italy may as well be Gepids too...



    Then in 375 they had to submit to the Huns along with their Ostrogoth overlords, becoming the favored Hun vassals. Under their king, Ardaric, Gepid warriors joined Attila the Hun's forces in the Battle of Chalons (the "Catalaunian fields") in Gaul (451). On the eve of the main encounter between allied hordes, the Gepids and Franks met each other, the latter fighting for the Romans and the former for the Huns, and seem to have fought one another to a standstill, with 15,000 dead reported by Jordanes, the main source for the events.
    Such loyalties were personal bonds among kings, and after Attila's death in 453, the Gepids and other people allied to defeat Attila's horde of would-be successors, who were dividing up the subjugated peoples like cattle, and led by Ardaric, they broke the Hunnic power in the Battle at the River Nedao in 454:
    ...a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugii breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suevi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors. (Jordanes, l.259)
    After the victory they finally won a place to settle in the Carpathian Mountains.
    The Gepidae by their own might won for themselves the territory of the Huns and ruled as victors over the extent of all Dacia, demanding of the Roman Empire nothing more than peace and an annual gift as a pledge of their friendly alliance. This the Emperor freely granted at the time, and to this day that race receives its customary gifts from the Roman Emperor. (Jordanes, l.262)
    Not long after the battle at the Nedao the old rivalry between the Gepids and the Ostrogoths spurred up again and they were driven out of their homeland in 504 by Theodoric the Great.
    They reached the zenith of their power after 537, settling in the rich area around Belgrade. For a short time, the city of Sirmium was the center of the Gepid State and the king Cunimund minted golden coins in it.[4] In 546 the Byzantine Empire allied themselves with the Lombards to expel the Gepids from this region. In 552 the Gepids suffered a disastrous defeat from Alboin in the Battle of Asfeld and were finally conquered by the Lombards in 567.
    Alboin had a drinking-cup made from the skull of Cunimund, which occasioned his death later in Italy, at the hands of an assassin sent by Rosamund, Cunimond's daughter.[5]
    Many Gepids followed Alboin to Italy (see Paulus Diaconus), but many remained. In 630, Theophylact Simocatta reported that the Byzantine Army entered the territory of the Avars and attacked a Gepid feast, capturing 30,000 Gepids (they met no Avars). Recent excavation by the Tisza River at Szolnok brought up a Gepid nobleman from an Avar period grave who was also wearing Turkic-Avar pieces next to the traditional Germanic clothes in which he was buried.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids

    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Have you ever heard of Moesian Goths?
    Were Ostrogoths mentioned in any other regions during their inhabitance of Moesia?
    according to wikipedia, Moesogoths who origin from Ostrogths have migrated from Thrace all the way to Jutland... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesogoths

    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    You forced me to serach for Visigoths.
    This study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/ showed 3.1% I1 in Catalonia and this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...d&searchtype=a showed 8.96% of I1+I2b1 in Midi-Pyrenees (France). Much of it could be from Visigoths.
    ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Btw I was inprecise when talking about Visigoths in Serbia. I had I1 as a whole in mind when I wrote that.
    My opinion is that I1 in Serbia is more from Ostrogoths than Visigoths.
    under assumption that I1 came with Goths, it is hard to say who contributed more Visigoths or Ostrogoths... Moesigoths were Ostrogths, but they moved away to Jutland and during Hunish conquest Visigoths settled area... on other hand Ostrogoths are said to have settled in Prevalitania (Montenegro) and we do know that not so small number of people in Serbia origin from Montenegro and east Hercegovina....

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    You are right about Gepid origin for I1 in Pannonia. You should have in mind that destiny of Gepids and Ostrogoths was very similar. Actually Gepids also inhabited Black Sea region and during that period they were vassals of Greuthungi. Later both of these tribes became vassals of Huns. With most of Greuthungi emerging as Ostrogoths after the downfall of Huns.

    But nor Gepids nor Langobards have ever entered Balkans, with all Langobards moving to North Italy (Lombardia got its name from them).

    Route of the Ostrogoths was more or less this one:
    North Poland –> Black Sea –> Pannonia –> Macedonia –> Bulgarian Moesia –> Italy with Western Balkans.

    Wikipedia article explaining that Goths went to Jutland is silly.

    An agreement was reached between Zeno and Theodoric, stipulating that Theodoric, if victorious, was to rule in Italy as the emperor's representative.[5] Theodoric with his people set out from Moesia in the autumn of 488, passed through Dalmatia and crossed the Julian Alps into Italy in late August 489.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom

    I also agree that it is hard to distinguish if Macedonian and Serbian I1 is of Visigoth or Ostrogoth origin. And another good point from you is about big number of people settling Serbia from the region of Medieval Serbia. This is exactly the reason I said that Serbian I1 is mostly from Ostrogoths. But for Macedonia it could indeed be Visigoths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...
    I think you are yet to provide better explanation for I1 origin in Macedonia (and Balkans).

    You had one assumption about I1 coming with Slavs, but that would mean much higher I1 in Ukraine. And we don't have it.

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    you are right, Gepids for sure didnot go as far south as Macedonia...
    alternative explanation can be that I1 comes from Goths, or that it came with Serbs or perhaps from earlier Scordisci who did extend all the way to Sar mountain on south...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I think you are yet to provide better explanation for I1 origin in Macedonia (and Balkans).
    You had one assumption about I1 coming with Slavs, but that would mean much higher I1 in Ukraine. And we don't have it.
    actually this holds for Goths as they did come from Ukraine and according to those maps I1 shows fairly homogeneous spread across east Europe without expected hotspots on places where Goths lived...... confusing is that even Crimea where we know some Goths lived long after movement of others doesnot show elevated I1... and for I2b1 it does..


    though we can see stream of elevated I1 going from Poland towards Black sea, which may be about early movement of Goths..

    On other hand, Slavs comming to Balkan from Ukraine is an assumption...
    According to Byzantium sources, Serbs came from land of white(west) Serbia or Boika... I would say that name Boika suggest land named after Celtic Boii and thus previously settled by Boii, which is nowadays Bohemia in west part of Czech republic.. in fact, there you find hotspot of I2a2, ans also set of toponyms clearly related to Serbs
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District))
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District)))

    Roman authors refer to the area they invaded as Boihaemum, the earliest mention[4] being in Tacitus' Germania 28[5] (written at the end of the 1st century AD). The name appears to include the tribal name Boi- plus the Germanic element *xaim- "home" (whence Gothic haims, German Heim, English home). This Boihaemum included parts of southern Bohemia as well as parts of Bavaria (whose name also seems to derive from the tribal name Boii) and Austria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia


    If Serbs did arrive to Balkan from area of Bohemia than it is quite possible that they carried some I1 with them to Balkan...

    in fact in Bohemia you will find hole in spread of I1 and hotspot in spread of I2a2...
    if area had same I1 as surrounding and much higher I2a2 than surrounding, than movement of much of its inhabitants to Balkan would leave hole in I1, but still enough I2a2 to create hotspot...

    Bohemia was previously settled by Suebi and Boii... I1 in Bohemia likely did origin from Suebi...Serbs probably settled area from I2a2 hotspots in Ukraine, hence this area was called white (=west) Serbia ..since they settled area that was out of I2a2 spread they made hotspot of I2a2 there...as they settled inside I1 area, some previous I1 inhabitants were likely assimilated in Serbs... than dominantly I2a2 Serbs moved to Balkans together with assimilated I1 people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    this spread of I2a1 actually resembles the most what I would expect to see from Visigoth's imprint...
    I am complete amateur here, but I can imagine that it is theoretically possible that I2a1 was carried to Iberia by Goths and Vandals.
    In those times, if your tribe is moving away, you as individual do not want to stay behind... which explains why there is no I2a1 in previous settlements of Goths and Vandals in east Europe...



    what I meant is that hotspot of I1 looked more as Bulgaria on that map...
    I tend to write and post without reading, and than to read posted and edit (because in preview mode spaces between lines are lost and I need to keep adding them) ...thing is I had last night weird issue (perhaps due to different ip address) that I could not edit my post and it was invisible until approved by admin...

    btw. looking at Bulgarian familytree dna project, I see only 1 I1 out of 75 samples... and one more that is just haplogroup I. to compare, there are 11 I2a2 samples (1 of them in Macedonia and 1 in Greece Macedonia)
    (22 markers are E-V13, 3 G2a & 3 G, 9 are R1a (2 of them from Macedonia), 5 are R1b - M269, there is some J as well)

    to conclude, you are right, hotspot of I1 is in Serbia not in Bulgaria

    btw. looking at spread of I1 in Balkans



    we can see that it seems to come from Germany rather than from areas around Black sea and it also shows no spread in directions of Goths movements (though the fast movements can never be seen on haplogroup maps, only the ones where settlements spread slowly)

    I can imagine that it origins mostly from Gepids in Serbia and Langobards in Austria/Slovenia/west Pannonia... in fact, we know from history that in 630 Ad in Pannonia Byzantian troops found no traces of Avars, only Gepids...we also know that part of Gepids did move towards Italy... so the hotspot near north Italy may as well be Gepids too...





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids



    according to wikipedia, Moesogoths who origin from Ostrogths have migrated from Thrace all the way to Jutland... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesogoths


    ok, that is somewhat better, but I would still expect much larger impact in Iberia... so I do think that I1 might have not really been dominant in Goths...



    under assumption that I1 came with Goths, it is hard to say who contributed more Visigoths or Ostrogoths... Moesigoths were Ostrogths, but they moved away to Jutland and during Hunish conquest Visigoths settled area... on other hand Ostrogoths are said to have settled in Prevalitania (Montenegro) and we do know that not so small number of people in Serbia origin from Montenegro and east Hercegovina....

    I definately do not see M26 I2a1 as having been brought to Iberia by Visigoths and Vandals. The evidence from Ken Nordtvedt's calculations at least is that I2a1 was founded in Iberia many centuries prior to the Germanic incursions of the Vandals and Visigoths.

    I2a1 is ancient and its presence in Britain and Ireland, for example, has been dated to the earliest, post-LGM period. Indeed, it is a candidate for the earliest clade to hit British shores.

    The Vandals and Visigoths would be more likely carriers of I1, I2b1, some R1b, maybe a little R1a1 and perhaps just a dash of the German-founded I2a2b. M26 I2a1 had been in Iberia for a long, long time when the Germanic tribes came.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I definately do not see M26 I2a1 as having been brought to Iberia by Visigoths and Vandals. The evidence from Ken Nordtvedt's calculations at least is that I2a1 was founded in Iberia many centuries prior to the Germanic incursions of the Vandals and Visigoths.
    I2a1 is ancient and its presence in Britain and Ireland, for example, has been dated to the earliest, post-LGM period. Indeed, it is a candidate for the earliest clade to hit British shores.
    The Vandals and Visigoths would be more likely carriers of I1, I2b1, some R1b, maybe a little R1a1 and perhaps just a dash of the German-founded I2a2b. M26 I2a1 had been in Iberia for a long, long time when the Germanic tribes came.
    yes, but confusing part is that I1 is not really significant in those areas of Iberia that were settled by Vandals and Visigoths while I2a1 is. I2a1 fits very nice with expected spread of Visigoths in Spain, and also with spread of Vandals in Andalusia, north Africa and Sardinia... so, I wondered how sure can we be that I2a1 is indeed (only) ancient in Iberia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Bohemia was previously settled by Suebi and Boii... I1 in Bohemia likely did origin from Suebi...Serbs probably settled area from I2a2 hotspots in Ukraine, hence this area was called white (=west) Serbia ..since they settled area that was out of I2a2 spread they made hotspot of I2a2 there...as they settled inside I1 area, some previous I1 inhabitants were likely assimilated in Serbs... than dominantly I2a2 Serbs moved to Balkans together with assimilated I1 people...
    What about I1 in Macedonia?
    If that is the region from which I1 came, than R1b-U106 would have to be found in Macedonia. And there isn't any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    yes, but confusing part is that I1 is not really significant in those areas of Iberia that were settled by Vandals and Visigoths while I2a1 is. I2a1 fits very nice with expected spread of Visigoths in Spain, and also with spread of Vandals in Andalusia, north Africa and Sardinia... so, I wondered how sure can we be that I2a1 is indeed (only) ancient in Iberia...
    I am just basing my judgement on Nordvedt's dating. I have to agree with you that there is not much I1 in Iberia per se, never mind those parts supposedly settled by Vandals etc. I can also see how this M26 I2a1 'fits' neatly with Visigothic and Vandal incursions, but dare I say it..my view is that this is a coincidence. There is some supporting evidence from Oppenheimer that I2a1 is ancient too. I think it was founded in Iberia thousands of years before any Vandal went to Spain. Besides, I cannot think of how it got to Germanic lands from Iberia. There is no evidence that I personally know of that suggests that M26 I2a1 was founded anywhere else but Iberia.

    As you know, I am open to persuasion. This world of genetics seems to shift like the sands...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    What about I1 in Macedonia?
    If that is the region from which I1 came, than R1b-U106 would have to be found in Macedonia. And there isn't any.
    btw. looking at its spread I think R1b - U106 is not particularly strong in Bohemia and around it... I do wonder how much of R1b in Serbia is U106..



    Macedonia was not initially settled by Serbs who came from west Serbia (Bohemia)... those were other Slavic (and non-Slavic) tribes..



    Keramisians were tribal group that came from Pannonia and had lot of Germanic people...

    Khan Kuber (or Kouver) was a Bulgar leader, brother of Khan Asparukh and member of the Dulo clan, who according to the Miracles of St Demetrius, in the 670s was the leader of a mixed Christian population of Bulgars, ‘Romans’, Slavs and Germanic people[1] that had been transferred to the Srem region in Pannonia by the Avars 60 years earlier[2][3]. The Miracles of St Demetrius states that, circa 680 AD, Kuber had a falling out with the Avar khagan, and after repelling an Avar attack, led his followers of around 70,000 people,[4] from Srem and to Macedonia (modern Republic of Macedonia). The Byzantines initially called his people Sermisianoi (after their former settlement - Sirmium), and later the Keramisians (after their new place: the Keramissian plain in Greater Macedonia).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

    btw. on figure showing south Slavic tribes you can see that there are Serb tribes in area of Raska and Hercegovina and Moravians in most of Serbia proper... this also points out that white Serbia was Bohemia as Bohemia is just west of Moravia, same as Serb tribes on Balkan are just west of Moravians...



    Bohemia is hilly part, Moravia is around river Morava,,,
    Raska and Hercegovina is hilly part, Moravians are around river Morava...


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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    btw. looking at its spread I think R1b - U106 is not particularly strong in Bohemia and around it... I do wonder how much of R1b in Serbia is U106..

    Macedonia was not initially settled by Serbs who came from west Serbia (Bohemia)... those were other Slavic (and non-Slavic) tribes..

    Keramisians were tribal group that came from Pannonia and had lot of Germanic people...
    According to Myres at al R1b has 10% frequency in Serbia.
    R1b-U106 particularly is 2%.

    If Keramisian Germanic people came from Pannonia, where from did they come to Pannonia?

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