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They came from Srem area led by kan Kuber...Originally Posted by Shetop
among them were Romans (romanized previous inhabitants likely originating from Scordisci), Bulgars, Slavs, and Germanic people (likely Gepids)
they were not tribe but mix of people from various origin fleeing from revenge of Avars,,, Germanic part were likely Gepids...
according to http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo
there is 4.5% of R1b in Serbia
the wikipedia data and research you mention that gives 10% R1b are based on
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/pp...es/PMC2799514/
which is based on data from work of Croatian lady Marijana Pericic
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.long
difference is that in http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo data is obtained from significantly larger number of samples (179 instead of 113), and also without scientists from Croatia leading the sampling (so there was for example no invention of mystic K* haplogroup for Serbs)...
so I am inclined to trust more those results...
results of sampling depends widely on sample size and randomness of sample taken...
so, we can expect R1b percentage to be between 5% and 10% likely closer to 5% (as much larger sample size gave 4.5%)
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Looks like you misunderstood me. I meant where were they before they came to Pannonia?
And this is the data I was talking about: Myres et al 2010
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he didnot do the sampling, he used data from work of Pericic... you can see that by checking number given in column called references... and verifying that number is 8, and that bellow the table under number 8 is reference to work of Pericic
what do you mean where were they before?
Gepids and romanized people were in Panonia before Avars
Bulgars came during the times of Avars
and Slavs probably were there both in Pannonia of Gepids and Pannonia of Avars...
do not forget that I link Pannonians from pre-Hunic times to proto-Slavic folk...
this is where Gepids first appear in history
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ity_15159.html
it is quite far from R1b-U106 spread
and the teritory was previously part of Dacia ( http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ity_15233.html ), which in fact gives some credibility to idea that there might be more than linguistic relation between self-identity tribal name of Germans - Deutsch and identity of more eastern Dacian tribes..
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Than we have a major disagreement which could prolong to a much bigger discussion.
I think I'll retire here. We have both made enough arguments for the others to make their own judgements.
Pozdrav do sledece diskusije!
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I can't find a map that shows only I2a2 in Europe, and especially Iberia. I have to put my theory to the rest, lol. Help anyone, please. :)
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This one is fine for me:
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in fact, as east of Deutsch people are Goths
east of Dacians are Getae
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ity_15233.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_8877.html
Shetop, can this be coincidence?
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I think I ones told you what I think about those "word games".
This way you could try proving that Serbs are from Siberia.
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Here are the Visigoths!
Iberian Y-DNA
14.3% of I1+I2b1 for Castile!
But also around 10% of I1+I2b1 for some other Spanish cities. I don't understand why haven't anyone taken this into account so far???
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yes, good work!
this looks more like it...
numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______German ic tribe
1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____Vand ali Hasdingi, Visigoths, Vikings? (no, too little R1a)
2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____Vandali Hasdingi, Visigoths
5___Malaga _______—______—_____7.7___3.8____Vikings? (no, as there is no I)
6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____Suebi
7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____Vanda li Silingi, Vikings? (maybe, but R1a is much bigger than I)
8___Galicia________—______ —____--____--____Vandali Silingi
9___Cantabria ____4.3______1.4___4.3____8.6___Vikings
10__Valencia_____9.7_______3.2___3.2____--____Visigoths, Vikings
11__Castile______14.3______19.0___--____--____Visigoths
12__Basques a____4.4______4.4____--
13__Catalans b____6.2______—_____--____--____Visigoths
Btw. now I believe that I2a1 doesnot come from Vandals and Goths
Last edited by how yes no 2; 06-12-10 at 22:08. Reason: 1) R1a and Vikings added 2) G added
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Maybe you have already realized but just in any case:
I2a2 in the study is old nomenclature for M26 - I2a1.
Also don't forget that the most of Vandals left Iberia when Visigoths came.
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yes, it was lapse... I did correct it...
btw. I will edit post to extend reasoning with the influence of Vikings... I will add them where R1a is found and where maps show they were present... they carried R1a but also I*(xI2a1)
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Vandali Silingi seems to not have had I haplogroup...
However, R1a we find in areas of Leon (7) on north and Malaga (5) on south...
this might be signature of Silingi and Hasdingi Vandals...
Interestingly G we find in areas 1 & 5 (most south), 6 & 7 (Suebic kingdom) and 9, but not in areas that were under control of Alans
However, south Portugal and west Spain are not sampled here...
if we imagine Visigoths pushing Alans and Vandals to south, we could match G in areas 1 and 5 with Alans retreat...than 3 is to expect to show traces of Vandals retreat...
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This could be interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlansAlans and Slavs
Third-century inscriptions from the Greek colony of Tanais at the mouth of the Don River mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos or Chorouatos[citation needed]. The historian Ptolemy identifies the Serboi as a tribe who lived north of the Caucasus, and other sources identify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the 3rd century[citation needed].
Some historians argue that the arrival of the Huns on the European steppe forced a portion of Alans previously living there to move northwest into the land of Venedes, possibly merging with Western Balts there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations.[22])
It's believed that some Alans resettled to the North (Barsils), merging with Volga Bulgars and Burtas, eventually transforming to Volga Tatars[23]
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Great job, you found them! I started to believe that they vanished in a thin air, lol.
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I'm interested to know the reason of I2b Hotspot between Greece,Albania and Macedonia?
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So you're basically saying that Bulgarians incorporated I2b1 in their background from Germanic tribes and then spread them elsewhere?If this map is correct, Bulgars conquered Greece, Macedonia, Albania and part of Turkey.
We also see the heightened amount of I2b1 in this area. It farther confirms Bulgar origin of this clad. Saying lightly they were very promiscuous these Bulgars, lol.
The only white spot there is in Macedonia. Did Serbs reconquered Macedonia from Bulgars? (not familiar with this part of history) Looks like Bulgars were wiped out from Macedonia before they managed to spread their seed.
If yes then most of R1a in Macedonia is Serb/Slavic, and not Bulgars or Bulgarian/Slavic.
Doubtful but could be, where does I2b1 reach the highest percentages in Balkans?
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Only someone who knows genetics, bulgarian, greek, albanian and old-norse can answer this question. Lately I have compared albanian and old-norse and it was like a big piece of the puzzle revealed. The number of cognates is quite high but they are not as clear-cut as albanian-latin cognates, showing an older influence, before the romans came to the balkans. I am not sure it can be called germanic because it's so old, but it is something that came from Denmark area in the Iron age.
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I2 belongs to the Slavic soup of genes, not Germanic.
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What I2 you mean?
I2b peaks in central and northern Germany (10-20%), the Benelux (Low Countries) (15%) as well as in northern eastern Sweden. It is also found in 3 to 10% of the inhabitants of Denmark, East England, and Northern France. And it has nothing to do with Slavs or recent immigrants.
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&r...JtgAjSc7FHsmxQ
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Look at the density peaks of I2 in general across Europe. I2a2 could belong to Ostrogoths and I2a1 to Vandals. Contrary to German propaganda, these were non-Germanic tribes.
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We don't know for sure which haplogroups were dominant among Ostrogoths and Vandals. Probably, the haplotypes 'dominant' in modern day Germanic language countries.
Well the idea of Vandals being Slavics is pretty much of a bad taste Slavic piss off propaganda. I created a thread here asking the origin of this pathetic antho-forum phenomenon. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-who-were-they
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Your hatred of the so called Slavs kills your logic. Slavic languages are older than German. Slavic tribes came out of Scythia and Scythia was very well known to Herodotus in the 5th century BC.
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from russian genetic people
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I do not understand your map, zanipolo. Mixing I1 with I2 is a common error.
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