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Thread: R1b in Europe origins mostly from Phrygians and Galatians?

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    R1b in Europe origins mostly from Phrygians and Galatians?



    Celts are usually thought to have reached Asia minor during their maximal expansion in 3rd century BC



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
    We can even see that spread of Celts (alternative name of Celts is Galli/Galatea) corresponds to Galatia region in Asia minor



    But, how likely is that a tribe would cross to another continent and go deeper in land from sea coast separating itself from the base and escape route? I would say not really likely. logical question is could it have been other way around? could it be that Celts origin from Galatia area of Asia minor?

    in fact, Strabo who writes about Galatians in his Geography tells us the following in notes for book I chapter 3 regarding his mention of Kelts

    138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...hlight=galatia

    We do associate Celts with spread of R1b in Europe. Belaresque in his work claims that European R1b in fact came to Europe from Asia minor...
    The indication for this is hotspot of variance of the European R1b in west part of Asia minor


    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000285

    in fact, by zooming on variance figure
    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/s...o.1000285.g001
    one can see that this hotspot correlates fairly well with maximum spread of Phrygian kingdom



    In Antiquity, the Phrygian cap had two connotations: for the Greeks as showing a distinctive Eastern influence of non-Greek "barbarism" (in the classical sense) and among the Romans as a badge of liberty. The Phrygian cap identifies Trojans such as Paris in vase-paintings and sculpture, and it is worn by the syncretic Persian saviour god Mithras and by the Anatolian god Attis who were later adopted by Romans and Hellenic cultures. The twins Castor and Pollux wear a superficially similar round cap called the pileus.
    The Phrygian cap that was also worn by King Midas to hide the donkey ears given to him as a curse by Apollo, was first referred to in Aristophanes' Ploutos (388BC) but illustrated in vase-paintings a generation earlier.[1] Greeks were already picturing the people of Midas wearing the tall peaked caps before the earliest surviving literary sources: a mid-sixth century Laconian cup depicts the capture of Silenus at a fountain house, by armed men in Eastern costume and pointed caps.[2]
    In vase-paintings and other Greek art, the Phrygian cap serves to identify the Trojan hero Paris as non-Greek; Roman poets habitually use the epithet "Phrygian" to mean Trojan. The Phrygian cap can also be seen on the Trajan's Column carvings, worn by the Dacians, and on the Arch of Septimius Severus worn by the Parthians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap
    Troyans are thus depicted by Greeks as carrying Phrygian caps which may indicate their Phrygian origin...

    in Europe there are tribes claiming that they origin from Troyans, which might be in fact about Phrygian origin

    one of them are Franks whose historic movement seems to correlate with the current spread of R1b U152




    Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

    in fact, in Serbia name for Franks seems to have been Fruzi (Frug for singular), which is very alike to word for Phrygia

    The mountain's name derives from the old Serbian name for the Frankish people: Fruzi (sing. Frug; adj. Fruški). The literal translation of "Fruška Gora" would be "the Frankish Mountain". It received this name due to its function as a natural border during Frankish campaigns. During the time of the Roman Empire, its name was Alma Mons ("Fertile Mount").
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruska_gora

    Thus, Franks might indeed origin from Phrygians


    By similarity of tribal name Frisians might as well origin from Phryigians


    this however might have been much earlier wave as it seems that their legends of origin do not mention Troyan war and as their culture shows continuity with old cultures in their area of influence

    Archeologically, Frisians share a local development with other people like the Belgae in northwest continental regions, dating to the Elp culture (1800-800 BC).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians

    I would argue that zone of influence of Frisians in fact correlates with spread of clade U-106 of haplogroup R1b


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    Hmm.. I am Dutch, and the name Frank means "free". A free man.
    The Frisians are more related with the people of Scandinavia, than with the Dutch.
    Consider the continent of Europe as a region where transport was difficult in the early ages.

    Important were the shipping routes between Scandinavia, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Belgium and Northern France.

    So around the North Sea lived people that were related with each other.
    Vikings, Saxons, Frisians, areas like French Normandy had a viking population.
    They were the European sea people.

    The Franks were much more continental. Farmers.
    In history we were told as a kid, that the Netherlands consists of 3 tribes.
    Frisians and Saxons in the north and Franks in the south.
    But yDNA has shown that history books need to be written again.. ;)

    The south of The Netherlands has a massive population of Celts.
    We are direct family of the Irish and the Scots.

    The Franks seemed to have passed our region, and didn't leave much offspring.
    That is to be investigated still.

    At least the Franks invaded France, giving their name to the country.
    And they were real bad ass fighters. As in the book of Gregory de Tours - Histories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    So around the North Sea lived people that were related with each other.
    Vikings, Saxons, Frisians, areas like French Normandy had a viking population.
    They were the European sea people.

    The Franks were much more continental. Farmers.
    In history we were told as a kid, that the Netherlands consists of 3 tribes.
    Frisians and Saxons in the north and Franks in the south.
    what about Batavi?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)

    Batavi are branch of Chatti
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti

    and considering this thread linking R1b in germanic and celtic people to Asia minor, it may be that Chatti in fact origin from Hatti or Hittites...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    Btw. Trojans carried tribal name Teucer, which could have been later transformed to Deutcher and to Teuton

    But yDNA has shown that history books need to be written again.. ;)

    The south of The Netherlands has a massive population of Celts.
    We are direct family of the Irish and the Scots.
    that is assumption...
    R1b is not necessarily = Celtic, it seems large part of it was (and is) also Germanic... it is questionable when did proto-Germanic and proto-Celtic culture separate...

    but yes, R1b dominant nations are more related among themselves than with nations who are not R1b dominant (Germans are as well R1b dominant as R1b in Germany is larger than I)

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    tribes who came from Asia minor are likely to have carried some J2 and E-V13...now let us use this to check whether Frisians and Franks could have spread those two haplogroups...





    Brittany has low J2 and no E-V13
    perhaps this animation explains why:



    Franks settlement areas do roughly match elevated levels of J2 and E-V13... thus, they could indeed origin from Asia minor as their legend of origin claims...
    thie origin could have been near Troy as there both J2 and E-V13 are elevated...

    Frisians could indeed origin from Phrygia...as their zone of influence shows less E-V13 and more J2, which is the case for Phrygia as well...




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    If I misunderstood the part of your post that mentions possible origins of Celts in Modern-Day Turkey, please let me know.
    It appears that you bring up the possibility that the settling of Celts in Asia Minor is unlikely and that you hold that they may have in fact begun in this area and moved onto the rest of Europe from there.
    We must remember that the founding of the Galatian kingdom can be fixed during the height of the La Tene movements. The growth of Celtic power that was germane particularly to those Celts of Hallsatt culture and later La Tene produced extraordinarily large bodies of well-equipped fighters who were parts of a number of movements against classical peoples. In the case of what came to be Galatia, the Greek world was in a period of turmoil during the wars of the Diadochi (Generals/Kings who each ruled a part of Alexander’s empire)
    To shorten the events, after the battle of Ipsus, where Antigonus was defeated by a coalition of the rest of the Diadochi (except Ptolemy, who arrive late), Seleucus moved against his old ally Lysimachus and killed him at Coropedium. He then crossed over into Europe, where he was promptly assassinated after getting off the boat.
    It was at this time of turmoil and lack of unity that massive numbers of Celts (La Tene Gauls) moved through Macedon, Greece, and Thrace. They sacked the temple of Delphi and set themselves up in a short-lived kingdom in a part of Thrace. They moved on in massive numbers into today’s Turkey and settled in what came to be the Galatian Kingdom.
    A bit of a power vacuum existed in that part of Asia also, as the native Bithynians and Cappadocians were not able to put up much of a resistance. This Kingdom of Gauls in Asia existed until it was annexed by Augustus into the Roman Empire.
    I tried to make this as brief as I could. The main point is that the history is very clear on this; the Galatian Kingdom was founded by large groups of Celts/Gauls who had swept down the Balkans into and through Greece and Thrace and crossed into Asia.
    There is no evidence of the preexistence of Celts in that part of Asia before the period mentioned. The movement described here originated from the heart of La Tene territory in Central Europe.

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    that is the part of the story as big part of R1b that came from Asia minor I now tend to see as Germanic (Franks, Frisians...)...

    historic data that you mention doesnot exclude scenario that I brought up... when we talk about path of haplogroups and primary tribes we talk tens of thousands years backwards... so you cannot just take a snapshot in history from a bit more than 2000 years and asume no related movement happened in tens of thousands years before it...

    what if Celts went to Asia minor in order to liberate their ancient homeland and their cousins who were perhaps still living there?

    according to the
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed
    R1b1b2 (which is most common R1b in Europe) did come to Europe via Asia minor (as an indication of this look at its variance depicted in 3rd picture...it is by far largest in west part of Asia minor)...


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    Well, we are in agreement on the Franks and Frisians being Germanic.

    Your "what if" scenario is a big "what if?” We are clearly not talking about a "snapshot", but something that we know from an historical period that is well documented. Asia Minor in the time period of which we are speaking had various groups descended from the Thraco-Cimmerians like Bithynians, Cappadocians, those of Pontus, and Armenians (with an Iranized dynasty), and of course Greeks. We do have not Celts, Gauls, or any other group that carried that name existing there at that time.

    The movements that I mentioned earlier were expansionist as well as the raiding type.
    Whatever one may hold as to the identity of the Cimbri, we know that large groups of La Tene Gauls were attached to this group that came to be defeated by Marius.
    Their (La Tene Gauls) destructive passage is attested by many sources, as is their creation of a Galatian state, the foundation of which did not have anything to do with any kinsmen living there who needed help.

    To propose that Celts started out in Asia Minor, then crossed over in to a Europe that already had proto Thracians and Greeks, among others, and moved through these into Central Europe without being watered down or destroyed completely is a big push. Then we would have to assume that they were able to recover enough to settle very large portions of Europe before we even see the rise of their greatest power during the Iron Age Halstatt and La Tene periods. There have been primary and reflux movements of peoples before, but in this case it would be highly unlikely.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Your "what if" scenario is a big "what if?” We are clearly not talking about a "snapshot", but something that we know from an historical period that is well documented.
    Core idea of forums like this is to use genetic data to obtain a hint about what was not written...

    Asia Minor in the time period of which we are speaking had various groups descended from the Thraco-Cimmerians like Bithynians, Cappadocians, those of Pontus, and Armenians (with an Iranized dynasty), and of course Greeks.We do have not Celts, Gauls, or any other group that carried that name existing there at that time
    Cimmerians were not among original inhabitants of Asia minor...nor they were ever influential in Asia minor......they had few military conquests deep into Asia minor...and after one of them Paphlagonia Eneti who were their next of kin and helped them, were forced to leave Asia minor and settle Thrace and Adriatic coast resulting in Veneti tribes of Adriatic coast, around Vistula and in Sarmatia...
    this happened soon after the Trojan war which is around 3200 years ago

    name Thraco-Cimmerians is related to archeological sites in east Europe, not in Asia minor....that is why there is Thraco in Thraco-Cimmerians... those sites are from 7th and 8th century BC, thus 2700-2800 years before present... archeological sitres cover area north of Black sea, Pannonia and have spread towards north of Russia and towards Denmark via Germany, and also in north Italy where Veneti tribes lived...and in Macedonia...

    Thraco-Cimmerians did spread to Europe in times much before 4th century BC when Celts conquered part of Asia minor, but key question is who are the people who origin from them? Sarmatians? Pannonians? Cimbry? proto-IE? Celtic? Germanic?...



    I think they were I2 carriers,as the core and directions of spread from the cores can be mapped to the core and directions of spread of I2a2





    they explain why Serb/Croats, east and west Hungarians and central Ukrainians are in same cluster whose focal point is Vinitsya area in Ukraine...


    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast

    while R1b did move from Asia minor to Europe in earlier times e.g. 4-5000 years ago
    however, keep in mind that lot of R1b also stayed there, as it is not at all confined to 3rd century Celt settled areas...




    Whatever one may hold as to the identity of the Cimbri, we know that large groups of La Tene Gauls were attached to this group that came to be defeated by Marius.
    To propose that Celts started out in Asia Minor, then crossed over in to a Europe that already had proto Thracians and Greeks, among others, and moved through these into Central Europe without being watered down or destroyed completely is a big push. Then we would have to assume that they were able to recover enough to settle very large portions of Europe before we even see the rise of their greatest power during the Iron Age Halstatt and La Tene periods. There have been primary and reflux movements of peoples before, but in this case it would be highly unlikely.
    I never said how many years took for that scenario... you imagine it as year or two issue... but when trying to interpret genetic data...we talk about thousands of years long migrations... question is not whether proto-Celtic people origin from Asia minor (as R1b they carried entered Europe from Asia minor), but when did they move to Europe (e.g. 4000 years ago or 7000 years ago) and why they went back to conquer Asia minor around 2300 years ago and were some related tribes still existing there in that point of time?

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    This thread is a typical mistake of trying to link one tribe/ethnicity/kingdom at one point in history with modern haplogroup frequencies.

    Besides it is based on the terrible R1b study by Balaresque et al. The only reason why R1b displays the greatest genetic diversity in western Anatolia is because there are no samples from Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. If R1b was the main haplogroup of the western branch of the Indo-European speakers who moved out from the Pontic steppes north of the Black Sea to settle in the more fertile and metal-rich regions of Europe, then the first forays would have taken place around modern Romania and Bulgaria. This early western branch could have become the Hittite branch by migrating from Bulgaria to Anatolia. Indo-European R1b1b2 would have thus met back the older Neolithic R1b1b from Anatolia.

    In other words R1b1b went round the Black Sea, starting in Anatolia, moving north across the Caucasus, settling in the Pontic steppes alongside R1a, then pushing west towards the Copper-age cultures of "Old Europe" in the Balkans and back to Anatolia. The mainstream of the prosperous Pontic steppe R1b population would have followed the Danube till the Alps when R1a started pressuring them from the Don-Volga region.

    The Phrygians are merely an offshoot from the Balkanese Indo-Europeans. A back migration from Central Europe brought the Celtic-speaking Galatians back to Anatolia in the 3rd century BCE. That much is well documented by Greek and Roman accounts and therefore undeniable.

    This is just to show you, as concisely as possible, that although R1b1b2 did indeed originated in Anatolia (probably eastern Anatolia + Caucasus) during the Neolithic period, Indo-European speaking tribes of classical times descend from the Bronze-age European branch, namely R1b1b2a1. I know this because of comparative linguistics and because there is some European R1b1b2a1 in Anatolia, mixed with some much older subclades. If the migration of R1b had taken place directly from Anatolia to Europe with the spread of agriculture, as suggested by Balaresque et al. or Dienekes Pontikos, Europe would have a similar blend of disparate old and new R1b subclades + a good deal more of haplogroup J2 and E1b1b.

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    For How Yes or No:

    The Phrygians are also grouped within the Thraco-Cimmerian group in the point that I made. Phrygians, Trojans are groups that I would consider as part of the base group. Two groups in Asia Minor that I failed to mention were the Luvians and Lydians, which are believed to be descended from the Hittites. Actually, there was a massive movement of Cimmerians into that area after they were crushed by the Scythians in the 7th-8th centuries BCE (not sure exactly when). They came under Lydian rule around a century after that.

    I would welcome discussion on where Phrygians and Trojans should be placed. I could easily see a Luvians/Lydian source for the Trojans. For the purpose of this thread, my main point is still to show that we have no evidence of early Celts/Gauls in Asia Minor.


    For Maciamo:

    Good to hear from you. If you would indulge me; where did I mess up?
    I would say that the Celts were not absolutely ethnically cohesive, but that their relationship to each other would be comparable to that of the early Germanic groups to each other (Low German-speaking proto Nordic, Eastern Germanic, etc). The same could be said about early Greeks such as Ionians and Dorians. The only big difference here was the extent of early proto-Celtic expansion which had them spread out further and in successive waves. This would in turn result in less close relations.

    I had a hard time following your post only because I was not sure what part was directed towards me (maybe all?) Would you consider the La Tene period migrations a backwards/reflux movement?

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    @Maciamo: it is hard to reply to your post, as you seems to be very convinced in your theory... when you have more time, I would really like to hear more arguments regarding the theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    For How Yes or No:

    The Phrygians are also grouped within the Thraco-Cimmerian group in the point that I made. Phrygians, Trojans are groups that I would consider as part of the base group. Two groups in Asia Minor that I failed to mention were the Luvians and Lydians, which are believed to be descended from the Hittites. Actually, there was a massive movement of Cimmerians into that area after they were crushed by the Scythians in the 7th-8th centuries BCE (not sure exactly when). They came under Lydian rule around a century after that.
    From what I remember, Phrygians origin from Bryges who moved into Asia minor from Balkan.. whether they were Cimmerians I really don't know...they could have been...settlement of Cimmerians there would explain spread of I2a2 in west part of Asia minor..

    btw. I am curious whether tribal name Bryges was related to Brygindis (local goddess), and to later Germanic tribe of Burgundians

    I would welcome discussion on where Phrygians and Trojans should be placed. I could easily see a Luvians/Lydian source for the Trojans. For the purpose of this thread, my main point is still to show that we have no evidence of early Celts/Gauls in Asia Minor.
    if there was evidence for early Celts in Asia minor, than what I proposed in this thread would not be new theory but historical fact...

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    I too would be curious about that word contributing to the name of the Burgundians. I also admit that there is a lot to sort out of the pre-historical period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    btw. I am curious whether tribal name Bryges was related to Brygindis (local goddess), and to later Germanic tribe of Burgundians

    if there was evidence for early Celts in Asia minor, than what I proposed in this thread would not be new theory but historical fact...
    Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
    Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
    Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.

    The language of Bryges is isotones with Greek, the vocabulary left from Phrygians leads to Greco-persian and thracian origin,
    we know that Brygians are an isolated thracian group, with most relative the ancient makedonians-Mygdones and the Paeonians
    when left to phrygia we find a time changed culture, to Iranian,
    Brygians from many linguists are connected with 6 ancient nations,
    a Baltic, Hyperborean, a germanic Burgundi, a celtic Brigandi, thracians, a west Iranian Scudra, a para greek or Greco-persian skudra,

    brygian is the key to identify Thracians of south, the use ending like -essa compare thracian -sse and Greek -is -issa

    Personally for me Vrygians don't have the Dacian -au -av -af but -an and the -us of Greco-latin is -os,
    -os exist in P celtic except Greek, that means, at least for me, that brygians were either Celtic, either Greco-persian, south thracian has a lot of persian,

    now about the case of R1b moving from minor asia to west europe,
    I don't know about the traces that left behind,
    but if Myceneans were R1b we know myceneans moved to epirus to Illyria and reach modern Venice, at about 600 BC,
    according the tombs we found around Istria,
    so the possibility from a wave of R1b passed europe from minor asia is open to me,
    besides from Homer we know, that myceneans were in mood to steal noble women and make kids with them,

    I believe in future search and analysis will give more data, so we have better results

    but the case of a wave or a part of R1b moving from minor asia to Europe, is a big percentage possible from me,

    in fact the map of linguistic around 5500 Bc is interesting

    wiik2.gif

    Finnish scholar Kalevi Wiik for 5,500 BC:


    In fact If I compare the Kurgan case





    so is it possible IE moved to europe before kurgan 1?

    the case of sesclo/dimini shows 2 different culture living beside.

    maybe both not IE, but maybe 1 is IE,


    the bronze age,
    to connect people with bronze and iron we must know ancient mines,

    Caucas as mountain could have minerals, but russian steppe?
    so we talk about a wooden arm society ?
    if we live caucas from north then the next mountain areas is around slovacia and romania, possible mining copper,
    but we know from cyprus that copper was known to egyptians before kurgan 4

    so Ie where not the first who find copper, at least to south europe and anatolia,
    so around cyprus people could defend, while in North and west europe probably they could prevail due to copper,
    a possible mix of copper? IE find and used a mix of copper with another metal?

    comparing the maps of R1b and R1a around Kurgan 2 and 3 we see small % of R1b, and big R1a

    the non mix theory could solve problem but the very small R1b means that R1b could not exist at kurgan 2-3 culture,

    so R1b did not have Kurgan and pit grave as went to west europe,
    or learned at cucuteni-tripolye times?

    in both theories R1b misses Kurgan2-3 times,
    but if comes from south east could be present and possibly create cucuteni-tripolye.
    Last edited by iapetoc; 21-07-11 at 22:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
    Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.
    You're mixing some stuff.
    By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
    Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
    You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia. Aryans from West Asia 'aryanized' those native Dravidian Indians.

    Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but native Caucasian folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You're mixing some stuff.
    By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
    Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
    You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia. Aryans from West Asia 'aryanized' those native Dravidian Indians.

    Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but native Caucasian folks.
    Actually you are messing things up...Where did I make any reference on who are or are not the ancient Indo-Aryans from a genetic point of view?
    All I said is that Phrygian (LANGUAGE) appears to be closer to Greek (LANGUAGE) and both of them are related more distantly to Armenian (LANGUAGE) and Indo-Aryan (LANGUAGES)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You're mixing some stuff.
    By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
    Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
    You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia.

    Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but Caucasian folks.

    you are wrong

    tottaly wrong

    Graeco -aryan is the late Proto IE known, LPIE

    2 theories come

    1) graeko west and qentum language and indo-iranian east satem languages (if IE is north of Caucas, north of Pontic steppes) kurgan hypothesis

    2) Graeco-aryan split to graeco-armenian and sanskrit (if IE is colchis area of Laz south west of caucas, south east of pontus Euxinus)
    graeco-armenian split to greco-phrygian and armeno-aryan
    armeno-aryan split to armenian and iranian while iranian mixed with indo comes the later Indo-iranian,


    Aryan does not mean Iranian
    Aryan is the language before LPIE


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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    you are wrong

    tottaly wrong

    Graeco -aryan is the late Proto IE known, LPIE

    2 theories come

    1) graeko west and qentum language and indo-iranian east satem languages (if IE is north of Caucas, north of Pontic steppes) kurgan hypothesis

    2) Graeco-aryan split to graeco-armenian and sanskrit (if IE is colchis area of Laz south west of caucas, south east of pontus Euxinus)
    graeco-armenian split to greco-phrygian and armeno-aryan
    armeno-aryan split to armenian and iranian while iranian mixed with indo comes the later Indo-iranian,


    Aryan does not mean Iranian
    Aryan is the language before LPIE
    Under which stone and on what planet do you live?

    LMAO, graeco-aryan and armeno-aryan = 100% pure nonsense...

    Iranian/Aryan (Kurdish & Persian) are far more related to Slavic languages than to Armenian.

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    Sanscrit is an INDO-Aryan language and not an Iranian (Aryan) language...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Actually you are messing things up...Where did I make any reference on who are or are not the ancient Indo-Aryans from a genetic point of view?
    All I said is that Phrygian (LANGUAGE) appears to be closer to Greek (LANGUAGE) and both of them are related more distantly to Armenian (LANGUAGE) and Indo-Aryan (LANGUAGES)...
    Indo-Aryan languages are closely related to Iranic (Iranian/Aryan) languages...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Under which stone and on what planet do you live?

    LMAO, graeco-aryan and armeno-aryan = 100% pure nonsense...

    Iranian/Aryan (Kurdish & Persian) are far more related to Slavic languages that to Armenian.

    probably you are another who believes bullshit tellers


    The Cambridge History of the English Language, 1992, ISBN 9780521264747

    Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0195144130


    NOw give your sources?


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post

    Hahaha where is gaulish, the vrygian, the hetit the Dacian the thracian?

    Are you nuts?

    the most ancient known languages is homeric and sanskrit

    we find words that exist in only those 2 understand it,

    all your diagrams are wrong
    where belong the welsh?
    where are the P-celtic? the Latvian the esthonian?


    I gave you 2 good sources
    search and you realize that Aryan is the language that connects Greece to india, and we don't know but possible also celtic

    ARYAN
    means 1 of the 3

    Golden people (ar- oro etc) (use knowhow merchants religion connection)
    white people (αργυρος, argent)
    warriors ορ elite people ( αρεν= αρ ει, Αρ-ης, Ερις Aριστος (noble) Αρ-μεν)

    and not iranian,

    in your last jpc from there you say thracians until the sanskrit they are the aryan family,

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    The Iranian Languages

    Edited by Gernot Windfuhr

    Published December 20th 2009 by Routledge – 884 pages

    http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780700711314/

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