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Thread: New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Slovakia and eastern Austria have about 11%. Not really a hotspot considering that surrounding areas have about 9%. But still, I wanted to show that it was above 10%.
    "The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

    ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
    Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


    sample size 250

    group__samples__percentage
    E1b1b___18______7.2
    J1_______3______1.2
    J2a1b____3______1.2
    J2a1h____1______0.4
    J2b______2______0.8
    I1_______19_____7.6
    I2a______46____18.4
    I2b1______4_____1.6
    G2a______10______4
    R1a______95_____38
    R1b______33_____13.2
    H_________6_____2.4
    Q_________3_____1.2
    N_________6_____2.4
    T_________1_____0.4

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    "The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

    ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
    Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


    sample size 250

    group__samples__percentage
    E1b1b___18______7.2
    You may be right.

    Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You may be right.
    Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.
    ok, than 13.2% and 15.6% Austria hotspot should be on map...



    currently on map I see hole in Tyrol instead of hotspot


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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_people



    according to this map, Liburnian and Raetic people are hole in E-V13 spread...while Messapii and Greek/Illyrian colonies are hotspot, with Oscan speaking people (Semnites) also being strongly E...

    I would expect less in Veneto, as Adriatic Veneti came from Paplagonia which is north part of Asia minor that is scarce in E ...however, previous inhabitants might had significant E

    btw. where does data for Veneto come from? I remember discussion I had with someone regarding I2a2 in Veneto, and in fact we concluded that area was not sampled but only the nearby one of Raetians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...
    how yes no
    You're right, it is hard to say.

    If we read Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan: "Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

    and author says that:

    "About 25 kya (25000 years) the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."

    "Europe experienced a cooling climate and the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM)."

    "About 10 kya (10000 years) the farmers of the Middle East, representing African Clan E (its sub-clan E3b) and two sub-clans of F (the “Caucasian” Clan G and the “Near Eastern” Clan J), spread to Anatolia and further to Greece and the Mediterranean coast."

    "Clans I, E3b, J, and G all originate from the Middle East, but only E3b, J, and G (not I) belong to the group of “Early Farmers.”

    "Clan I had spread into Europe before the emergence of effective domestication of wild plants and animals (i.e. the beginning of agriculture and cattle raising) in the Middle East."

    "Clan I represents the “Old Europeans”."

    ...

    I think that we can link Dacians, Thracians, Greeks and Illyrians with early farmers.

    And linguistic researchs can be helpful.

    For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b.

    Today the Romanian language is a Latinized but even so, between Romanian and Albanian there are many similarities.

    There are opinions that Albanians originate from one of part Dacians, and although they are close to the Illyrians and the ancient Greeks, not originate from them.

    Some consider that today's Albanian population is similar population of Peloponnese and that somebody can make connections Peloponnese-Epirus-Albania.

    The third opinion is that Albanians come from Illyrians directly.

    The problem with the second opinion is the difference in language between today's Greek and Albanian, although of course it is possible to exist different versions of why this was so (but I do not want speculate now).

    The problem with the third opinion is that in today's Albanian has very few words related to the sea, but Illyrian language certainly had to have sea words because the Illyrians inhabited the Adriatic coast.

    It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.

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    I used this predictor http://predictor.ydna.ru/ to get results for haplotypes from this study Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania. There were only a couple of less reliable predictions and for them I added predictions from this one Whit Athey's predictor.
    It resulted with 18.85% for E1b1b1 in South-East Romania and when I added results for Ploesti, (Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns) which is in the same region the number was 18.35% for South-East Romania.

    For Northeast Romania there is only 7.4% found in this study: Population History of the Dniester-Carpathians:
    Evidence from Alu Insertion and Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms
    .

    So for the whole Romania probable frequency should be between 8% and 18% for E1b1b1. The big range I gave is because there are no results from Transylvania.

    I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.
    I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?
    Last edited by Shetop; 26-12-10 at 10:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I used this predictor
    I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.
    well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...

    For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b
    I used to think that as well...
    but it seems that E-V13 was spread by Greeks as much as J2

    and Greek language as IE language was probably brought into Greeks by some haplogroup other than E-V13 and J2... it could have been R1b or perhaps Dorians could have been haplogroup I.... (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=48 )

    Greek E-V13 seems to be related to Aeolic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic)
    Elia on Peloponnese was probably also Aeolic in origin (well, even its name is derived from it) but language of Dorians prevailed....

    Aeolic (pronounced /iːˈɒlɪk/) or Aeolian (/iːˈoʊlɪən/) Greek (also known as Lesbian or Lesbic Greek) is a linguistic term used to describe a set of rather archaic Greek sub-dialects, spoken mainly in Boeotia (a region in Central Greece), in Lesbos (an island close to Asia Minor) and in other Greek colonies.
    The Aeolic dialect shows many archaisms, in comparison to the other Greek dialects (i.e. Ionian-Attic, Doric, Northwestern and Arcado-Cypriot), as well as many innovations.
    Aeolic Greek is most widely known for being the language of the writings of Sappho and Alcaeus of Mytilene. Aeolic poetry, the most famous example of which being the works of Sappho, mostly uses four classical meters known as the Aeolics, which are: Glyconic (the most basic form of Aeolic line), Hendecasyllabic verse, Sapphic stanza and Alcaic stanza (the latter two so named after Sappho and Alcaeus respectively).
    In Protagoras (dialogue) 341c of Plato, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect as barbarian, while referring to Pittacus of Mytilene:[2]
    he didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect
    The Aeolic dialect might, in the time of Socrates and Plato, sound so strange to the Athenians, as to be termed, from an exclusive pride in the Attic literary style, barbaros.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic








    as for Albanians, I think they are genetically most related to Dardanians... but culturally and linguistically they could have been significantly influenced by some later movement e.g. by people led by Kuber
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

    in fact, Aeolic Greece should be close to original language of Dardanians, as Aeolic is related to E-V13, was termed barbarian, and because Dardanians were also present in Asia minor in Troad area from where they came to Balkan), and Aeolic Greek includes Troad and port of coast south of it.....
    so, I do wonder how similar Aeolic Greece is to modern Albanian...

    The terms Dardanoi (Greek: "Δάρδανοι"), - its anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans & Dardan - in classical writings were synonymous with the term Trojan, the Dardanoi being Trojans themselves, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

    Dardanians did live in Troad (they were not Trojans according to Homer who distinguish Trojans and Dardanians which could be difference between E-V13 and J2 as both seems to be strong in that area), and after Trojan wars moved to Balkan...

    btw. there is significant genetic difference between Geghs (north Albanians) and Tosks (south Albanians)... I2a2 among Tosks seems to be recent admixture as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... thus, it came from people who were recently (in last 500 years) Albanized which could have been Vlachs or Slavic people living in Albania...

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html

    actually, I wonder whether Illyrians might have been dominantly J2, equal mix of J2 and E-v13, dominantly E-V13, or I2a2....

    Albania (especially south part) seems to show large J2
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 26-12-10 at 04:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post

    I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ...as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html
    Shetop
    You can see how yes no gave one source.

    You can read the text:

    "What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.


    The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection."

    And comments. One of them:

    "However the idea of the Albanians originally coming from somewhere like Dacia seems to ring true. "

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    What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians.

    The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.
    yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

    note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

    I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
    and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

    language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
    I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

    E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
    J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

    J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

    Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

    Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

    both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

    note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

    I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
    and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

    language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
    I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

    E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
    J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

    J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

    Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

    Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

    both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...
    how yes no
    I think that your explanation is very logical, and there is the link between Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians and Albanian Tosks.

    Also, ancient Macedonians are probably one of tribe Dorian Greeks (it has a lot in the literature about that). Maybe Dorian Greek is derived from J2 or mix J2 & I2. What about other old Greek tribes (possible explanations for haplogroups, languages...)?

    It is interesting there are linguists who claim that Greek do not belong to the Indo-European languages. Perhaps due to the strong influence of the Phoenician. But if original Greek comes from some branches of early farmers the language can't be Indo-European.

    Clearly, E1b1b probably belong to the Dardanians and Thracians.

    But it does not mean that Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians, Dardanians and Thracians all spoke the same language, it is possible that these are different languages, which are similar to each other, as the root they are not Indo-European languages.

    What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...
    Well they did go deeper in subbranches.

    R1b in the Southeast Europe (including Romania) is mostly represented with older (or at least different) R1b subclades than the ones found in Western Europe including Germany. I think we discussed this already. If Germanic tribes had R1b they would bring R-U106 (like in Portugal) and this subclade has very low frequencies in Southeast Europe.

    Than, G2a in Southeast Europe is the same as in Western Europe and we can't say Sarmatians settled so wide in Europe.

    And about J2, it did come from the East, probably Anatolia, but it happened earlier, during the history unknown to us. There is no historical event which could possibly explain J2 in Southeast Europe including Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.
    I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

    If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?

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    I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2

    E-V13 was in Dalmatia l0ong time ago as it has large variance and low frequency there... however, this large variance of E-V13 in Dalmatia might be not about Illyrians but about previous inhabitants that are by many schoolars thought (based on presence of thracian toponyms) to be Thracians...

    Ilyrians came from north and subdued Thracians living in Dalmatia...
    so, Illyrians might have been not E-V13 but first wave of I2a2...

    E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...

    according to this map


    http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/map.html

    the spread of Illyrians in Italy does match elevated I2a2 on Maciamo's map


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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2
    Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.
    The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
    My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
    My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.
    Estimating the age of haplogroups is, I believe, an extremely difficult and theoretical thing to do without ancient DNA to confirm the actual evolution of SNP's in the tree. One reason is that not every scientist agree even remotely on what mutation rate to use (Dienekes Pontikos is very vocal about this issue on his blog), so that estimate can be easily doubled or tripled in time (or reduced by as much) depending on whose mutation rate you choose. But the most troublesome of all issues is that mutations occur far more frequently in a large population with a high birth rate and high (infantile) death rate, like India, than in a society where people have only one or two children fairly late in life, like present-day Western countries.

    So it could be that I2a2-South is indeed to young to be Mesolithic in origin. But it could just as well be that the population of the Dinaric Alps was generally sparse over the last 10,000 years, so that their mutation rate was much slower than the world average. I think this is also why haplogroup I1 had been mistakenly judged to be so young (some claim as little as 4500 years). Hunter-gather societies had low population, with low birth rates, and they happen to coincide with haplogroups that look young (I1, I2b, I2a2), but probably aren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ?.
    What about Magna Grecia?
    How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece (I2a2 is almost completely absent in South and Central Italy)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    What about Magna Grecia?
    How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece?
    Three reasons :

    1) Each part of Greece has quite different proportions of haplogroups.

    2) Greek colonists would have mixed to some extend with the previous inhabitants of southern Italy (if not immediately, at least once all Italy was unified under Roman rule, and ever since then).

    3) Haplogroup frequencies tend to vary naturally over time.

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    From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

    Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

    Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.
    Definetely.
    Even if you look spread of I2a2 in Greece with high concentration in Macedonia and highspot on Peloponesus, than in northwestern Bulgaria (talking about I2a2 Dinaric North) it clearly corespond with settlements of various Slavic tribes: Velegeziti, Milinzi, Jezerci in the so called 6th century Sclavinias.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic.
    well, how can Illyrian language go completelly out of use in a group that is genetically extremelly homogeneous and lives in isolated mountain areas as people from Herzegovina do... that is just very difficult to explain.. in all languages where population went through large cultural and language shifts there are layers and layers of previous language, but I donnot think that is the case for Herzegovina...in fact, when Serb language reformer Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Ste...d%C5%BEi%C4%87) was creating 100% phonetic alphabet, and grammar rules for Serbian literature language, he used language spoken in Herzegovina as basis, as he concluded that it is the area where most pure Serbian language is spoken...

    to compare, there are still Vlach villages scattered over Balkan, who kept their language (that originates from times of Roman empire) despite them being scattered around... now if they kept complete language, how come that people in Herzegovina, who are grouped in single place and genetically very homogeneous, did not keep anything from their language?

    I find that hard to believe....

    So, in my opinion, either I2a2 came mostly with Slavs, or previous people did already speak similar or in fact the same language...

    btw. Albania is full with Slavic toponyms...one could argue that Slavs have massively settled in that land as well, but as far as I remember there is an issue that when trying to connect Albanian language related toponyms to the ones of ancient world, it goes only via Slavic intermediary form...

    on other hand, some toponyms in south Serbia and Macedonia seems to have Albanian root....

    so, I find it possible that Albanians origin from Dardanians, and south Slavic people from Illyrians....
    in fact, one may conclude that also based on this:



    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html

    which shows that south Slavs cluster with Romanians, east and west Hungary and central Ukraine...
    if we look at cluster and try to figure out possible source of this spread, south part of central Ukraine seems logical... and exactly there we find Vinnitsya area which in fact likely means area of Veneti...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast

    Veneti are by many scholars thought to be same as Illyrians...

    and when Jordanes writes of early Slavs he tells that they are of Veneti race...

    Hermanaric also took arms against the Venethi. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and tried to resist him. But a multitude of cowards is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni.



    In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

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    It is very often forgotten that according to historical sources region of Dalmatia, except some coastal cities were practically deserted land in 7th century. It is also very well documented with archeological facts, all Byzantine cities stayed empty for centuries and there were no continuity in human settlements of that period. Some isolate group of domestic population remains in mountains but their number were symbolic.
    So, the first settlement of Slavs on Balkan from 6th century correspond with I2a2 Din North. Settlement of Serbs in 7th century in the region of Dalmatia fully corespond with I2a2 Dinaric South.
    There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July. And all remnants of previous fortifications, cemetaries were reffered as greek cemetary, greek church or greek city. So the national legend also said they came on deserted land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July.
    this sounds as volcanic winter...
    but only one in that time frame seems to have been in year 535/536

    The Byzantine historian Procopius recorded of 536, in his report on the wars with the Vandals, "during this year a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness...and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear."[4][5]

    The Gaelic Irish Annals[6][7] record the following:


    Further phenomena reported by a number of independent contemporary sources:
    Low temperatures, even snow during the summer (snow reportedly fell in August in China, which postponed the harvest there)[8]
    Crop failures[9]
    "A dense, dry fog" in the Mideast, China, and Europe[8]
    Drought in Peru, which affected the Moche culture[8][10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme...35%E2%80%93536

    Byzantium defetead Vandals in 536. and imediatelly attacked Ostrogothic kingdom in south Italy...

    so, story may relate to settlement of Goths in Herzegovina but is one century to early to relate to settlement of Serbs....

    though, there is priest of Duklja who in his chronicle (13th century) claims that south Slavs are mostly Goths with some later Slavic admixture...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic...iest_of_Duklja

    as far as I remember, he claims that they called mountain areas near the sea Croatia (Montenegro was red (=south) Croatia), while Bosnia and Raska were named Serbia... in fact, after reading his words one easily comes to impression that nations of Serbs and Croats came into existance after Gothic empire was split between two brothers one ruling Serbia (Raska nad Bosnia) and other ruling Croatia (Dalmatia and Montenegro)... he does enlist all the kings from arival of Goths on Balkan, and also some data about relevant historic events...

    He does say that Goths were wild, agressive people, while later not populous admixture of Slavs were good people... he also claims that afer some time very numerous Bulgarian people settled in east of the empire, and that those people were speaking the same language
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 28-12-10 at 18:25. Reason: extending quotation to include the part about snow in summer

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    Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon. The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region. It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon.
    Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...

    The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region.
    exactly...
    but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

    somehow story of settlement in land abandoned by Greeks got mixed up after new settlers joined Goth settlers... lol, Goth settlers wanted to beautify the self-image they presented to new Slavic settlers, so they said Greeks have gone when there was winter in summer as it was too cold for them...

    most of I1 in Balkan can easily be Gothic in origin, and there is lot of it...
    I2a2 is not likely to be Gothic as language shift would not happened in I2a2 dominant areas when less populous R1a people would enter in small numbers into wild and aggressive I2a2 dominant areas... and it is not likely that Ostrogoths were Slavic speaking when they arrived...

    though I have to admit that Goths could explain fairly well how Serbs/Croats, east and west Hungarians, Romanians and central Ukrainians can be same cluster.....

    however, I think (Pannonian /) Illyrian / Veneti / Sarmatian link is more plausible explanation for the spread of I2a2 as those tribes existed for centuries in relevant areas, while Goths were in Balkans in historically relatively short period in which lot of wars occurred.....

    It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.
    big epidermic of plaque could be partially consequence of famine that lasted for years which did likely reduce capabilities of immune system of most people...

    arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...

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