New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East

[Garrick]

I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?

We can read, for example, at Wiik (2008):

"About 25 kya (25000 years ago) one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b, reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common in the present-day Ukraine.

About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."


It means that probably first male inhabitants of Balkan were they who belonged I haplogroup, although it is possible even at that time or later, clans R1a and/or R1b have also been able to be in some areas of the Balkans.


For now, we do not know who were these first the members of clan I.

What we can now conclude from the existing haplogroup first inhabitants of the Balkans were the holders of R1a haplogroup.

It is probably that (hypothesis):

the men from the Vinca civilization belonged R1a

which of course researching can prove whether the hypothesis is correct or no and it should research

but if it is no true alternative can only be that Vincans belonged to a branch I.

[iapodos]

Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...

exactly...
but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...

There were Slavs which definetely came before Serbs. Serbs came in 7th century and were parth of totally different migration. But much before the Serbs various Slavic tribes poured into Balkan provinces . At that tim Goths have already gone.This is the generation of arriving Slavs which could remember the dramatic climatic change in 536. and transfer it to Serbs which came around 620. The Serbs as I think were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric South and they settled among already settled Slavs which were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric North. Today, according to newest study there is about one third of North haplotypes among Serbs and Montenegrines and two third South haplotypes.

This is from wikipedia:

In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down.[6] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia.[7] As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[8] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[9] By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns).

[LeBrok]

Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.

Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.

Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.

[iapodos]

Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.
Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.
Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.

I don't know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
Climatic change in 536. were recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population.

[Maciamo]

I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.

[zanipolo]

I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.

Interesting that the cornish celts who migrated to brittany france are empty of this marker

[Dorianfinder]

An old but well integrated study with history and haplogroup E information.

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf

[hawklutz]

Carpatho-Rusyn DNA Project on FTDNA encompassing mountainous regions of Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine:
E1-24,4%
I1-5,8%
I2a-14%
I2b-1,1%
J2-2,3%
N1-1,1%
R1a-39,5%
R1a1a1g(M458+)-8,1%
R1a1a1g2(L260+)-8,1%
R1b-10,5%
R2-1,1%

Interesting enough, there are almost no E1b1b1 in Zamagurie region DNA Project, though there are a lot of J2(14%).

[PaschalisB]

E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...

Any scientific source that a populaton with dominant E-V13 looks like this?

[MOESAN]

hello!
questions about aspects of this topic as discussed by other members:
- for France, the distributions are very unsure even if we can imagine that E1 as a whole is very seldom in Brittany - I though before (I'm no mor sure of nothing waiting for more data) that Y-E1 was a part of the demic propagation of agriculture along the Danube river to South Germany and Eastern-Northern France, mixed with other S-E HGs - I wait more data for LBK for example - but nevertheless I find very heavy the percentages of the map for Y-E1 in France ?
- phenotypes for Y-E1: hard to decide - I guess a southern type, dark - but which one? there are more than a type among the so diverses so called 'mediterranean phenotypes' - all mediterranean types are not small statured (in Near-East there are tall enough dolichocephalic eurafrican people) and keep in mind true mediterranean people, whatever the subtype, are not little fat or sturdy mesocephalic people - they are light bodied people by nature (it 's true we know that diet can change the body aspect, see the noble Saudi Arabs: they are fat very often but their skeletons are light and muscles too - what I keep in mind in that they ere the LAST ligneages come out from Eastern Africa, where people are middle height (not small) and slender
- for Y-I2a1b North and South I believe we are going fast and far when giving them a too separate distribution at the beginning: do not forget they are "brothers"
let's pray the DNA surveys god to have more data quickly!

[spongetaro]

I'd like to have Maciamo opinion on haplogroup E in Ile de France. Which subclades of E1b prevail there? Is there any historical reasons for the high frequency of E1b in île de France? Why is there more E1b in Ile de France than in Marseille area?

[PaschalisB]

I'd like to have Maciamo opinion on haplogroup E in Ile de France. Which subclades of E1b prevail there? Is there any historical reasons for the high frequency of E1b in île de France? Why is there more E1b in Ile de France than in Marseille area?

Maybe because of the big number of people with a distant or recent maghrebian origin?

[MOESAN]

Maybe because of the big number of people with a distant or recent maghrebian origin?

The problem isthat in France the origin of samples members are not verified too deeply - at the Neolithic impact of Near-Easterners (J2/E1) and Caucasic People (G2/J2) would have been strong enough (30% ?) in �le-de-France but I find it curious that this people could have stayed there 5000-6000 years without being overflowed or diluted by other historic newcomers - the kind of E2 is a problem too: which? the North-West-African one or the Near-Eastern-Balkanic one? so the problem of sampling is still the probable explication of these high (too high) percentages-