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Thread: Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

  1. #26
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    Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
    I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on. I know the official propaganda of Serbia and New Greece and we have suffered a lot from them, even today.

    But, now let's talk about the real Albanian language.
    I'm new here, so I can't post image or links.
    Here the first example:

    Ik (albanian )
    行く[iku] (japanese)
    wiki (hawainian)
    quick (english)

    Can anyone tell me, how these words are related?

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Albanian national costume from Northern Albania
    My dear!
    Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
    I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!!

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    Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.

    Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

    The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.

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    So sturmgewehr

    You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
    or you say that it was before??
    do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
    cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
    or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
    I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.
    Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

    All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

    Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

    However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

    Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    So

    You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
    or you say that it was before??
    do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
    cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
    or not?
    I pretty much agree with you, those Megalithic Cultures were either E V13 or J2b Carriers, since the Neolithic CUlture which was born in the Middle east was brought to the Balkans by these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

    All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

    Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

    However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

    Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....
    That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

    that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturmgewehr View Post
    That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

    that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.
    thing is they do cluster with each other...
    according to

    Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
    Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe
    Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.


    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png


    Albanians (cluster 13) cluster first with central Anatolia (cluster 5),
    than this cluster clusters with
    cluster made of cluster 18 (Serbs, Croats, central Ukraine, Romania, east and west Hungary) and cluster 10 (? not indicated anywhere),

    than this cluster composed of clusters 13, 18, 5 and 10 clusters with north west Africa (cluster 3),

    and only than this cluster clusters with cluster made of clusters 7(northeast Africa?) , 12, 15 and 2 (Greeks , Macedonians & Bulgars).....

    east Europe cluster 17 (Russians and Poles) cluster with Caucasus (11) and than this cluster clusters with west Europe cluster 6..


    *Cluster 13 (Albanian) was registered as second in frequency in the region of Anatolia and
    the border region of Latvia,Belarus,and the Russian Federation (data not shown).

    in any case northwest Africa (Berbers) thus cluster with Balkans.... perhaps due to Phoenicians... or due to some much older link... or due to settlement of Vandals and Alans in northwest Africa...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 17-01-11 at 04:00. Reason: more detailed data given

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.
    You say, but nobody had said here before, you can see all previous posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by sturmgewehr View Post
    Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.
    Quote Originally Posted by sturmgewehr View Post

    Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

    The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.


    It is no longer current.

    You can read new scientific articles about it.

    Haak et. al.

    PLOS Biology, November 2010

    Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

    We genetically characterized a population of the earliest farming culture inCentral Europe, the Linear Pottery Culture (LBK; 5,500–4,900 calibrated B.C.) and used comprehensive phylogeographic andpopulation genetic analyses to locate its origins within the broader Eurasian region, and to trace potential dispersal routesinto Europe.

    The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.

    When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.

    Now, you can look at this picture of the spread of haplogroup E.





    Pay attention to the E-M78, from which it originated and E-V13 and territory. It is believed that the source is Upper Egypt. With picture you can see that E bearers went to Western Africa and north into Western Asia. So the current holders of E-V13 haplogroups in the Balkans is very likely come from the Upper Egypt (and more before from Somalia/Ethiopia).


    Now look at this picture.




    Here you can see that the Egyptian and Proto-berber (formerly classified as Hamitic, and Afro-Asiatic, and now increasingly used the term Afrasian) occurred about 9000 years ago.

    The separation Chusitic and Proto-North-Erythraic languages occurred before 13,000 years, a Protoboreafrasian and Protochadic were taking about 11,000 years ago.

    We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).

    If E carriers previously crossed into Asia, then it makes sense to look for similarities in some of the languages that are climbing up the tree in Figure.


    I said before, no invariant knowledge, science is a dynamic, new research results and lead to changes earlier opinions, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.
    When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.
    In contrast, Y chromosome SNPs could be typed for only three out of the eight male individuals (37.5%; Table S2) identified through physical anthropological examination, reflecting the much lower copy number of nuclear loci [22]. After typing with the GenoY25 assay, individual deb34 was found to belong to hg G (M201), whereas individuals deb20 and deb38 both fall basally on the F branch (derived for M89 but ancestral for markers M201, M170, M304, and M9), i.e., they could be either F or H (Table 1). To further investigate the hg status beyond the standard GenoY25 assay, we amplified short fragments around SNP sites M285, P287, and S126 to further resolve deb34 into G1, G2*, and G2a3, and around SNP site M69 to distinguish between F and H [26]. deb34 proved to be ancestral for G1-M285 but derived for G2*-P287 and additional downstream SNP S126 (L30), placing it into G2a3. deb20 and deb38 were shown to be ancestral at M69 and hence basal F (M89), and remained in this position because we did not carry out further internal subtyping within the F clade.
    Haak W, Balanovsky O, Sanchez JJ, Koshel S, Zaporozhchenko V, et al. (2010) Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000536. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
    So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!
    Dian
    It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.

    The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).

    Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:

    "However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."

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    i still believe that is very much connected with J2,
    the propabilty both came same time but different class like merchants and builders,
    besides shqiptar is a turkish word shqepar meaning axe, the only other civilization with axe is minoan lavrys

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

    the possibility of a big number o turcish words leads me to the conclusion that are hetit and to a though or thesis that are 2 E one that unite troy via hetit and lydian support, became mysian and travel with moesian to gaete-dacian
    and one that is connected with greeks only,

    but the IE similarity of achamenides agamemnon achaic people and achaic also agaic-> to geg, also the gygy people on lydia and in moesia, leads me to a conclusion that the E
    1) either was cut from south balkan E nad reunite after lingua change in south E
    2) either was another and has to do with lycaonia and lydia, and was assimilated by troy thracians and pass by myssian to moesia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).
    There was an italian, arberesh origin linguist who has done a study about the albanian language and the language of ancient Egypt. He thought the ancient egyptian hieroglyphs can be understood with albanian language, but the indo-eu linguists have never trusted this theory.
    He compared the coptic language, the language of hittites, aramaic language, the arabic language with albanian.
    The book is written in the italian language, and was not published more than a few copies.
    Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!
    By the way "Thot" in the alb. means " He tell" 3d person singual.
    Another thing! To speak about the albanian language you must know it! Because the examples and the translate of them you brought here, can make laugh every albanian. This is a friendly suggestion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Dian
    It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.
    The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).
    Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:
    "However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."
    I was referring to this part:
    The Y chromosome hgs obtained from the three Derenburg early Neolithic individuals are generally concordant with the mtDNA data (Table 1). Interestingly, we do not find the most common Y chromosome hgs in modern Europe (e.g., R1b, R1a, I, and E1b1), which parallels the low frequency of the very common modern European mtDNA hg H (now at 20%–50% across Western Eurasia) in the Neolithic samples. Also, while both Neolithic Y chromosome hgs G2a3 and F* are rather rare in modern-day Europe, they have slightly higher frequencies in populations of the Near East, and the highest frequency of hg G2a is seen in the Caucasus today [15].
    Now, the E hg is a Y-DNA hg, not a mtDNA hg. May be one day we may find another grave old like LBK with E hg. There is any study in the Balkans about this?

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    laugh? you may laugh but it is a class name of a nation
    shqiptar in albanian
    shqapan in greek
    shqepar in turkish

    1 the albanians
    2 the builders
    3 the builders hammer
    any connection

    and open your eyes

    Alb thot
    grec toutos - tuto -u as u in ucraine

    want more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    laugh? you may laugh but it is a class name of a nation
    shqiptar in albanian
    shqapan in greek
    shqepar in turkish
    1 the albanians
    2 the builders
    3 the builders hammer
    any connection
    I don't understand what you means, but let me explane something.
    In alb. Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar. Sqep-beak,pecker and ar- usually an ending in alb words. It looks like the beak of a bird!
    In greek it is called σκεπάρνι. Can you tell me the origin of this word, because the turks called it "gaga"! Don't you confuse "sqepar" with "çekiç"!
    Now do you know what means in alb, Shkly, shqy, shqyp, shqip,sqep, shqep, shqype, shqipe and shqiponjë?
    And what means "Skiptos" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    want more?
    Yes I do!
    Please tell me, who is John Amos Comenius?

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    THEN YOU ARE RIGHT
    IF Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar
    and the turks also called skeparn in areas like minor Asia smyrna and cappadokia

    so then
    we go to the other approach

    SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
    cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
    then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
    MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.

    OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
    also Ash means from but only in east ionic


    i suggest you tell me who is

    David Megas Komnenos comnenus

    or

    Michael Komnenos Comnenus

    or

    Alexander Ypsilantis

    all from comnana of Trebizond Empire to Con/polis to Epirus to moldavia


    because Skiptos means bowed but sgiptos means egyptian
    k as gr κ
    g as γ -wh- in what 'swhiptos'

    or the very ancient before 700 BC skif-os or skiphos wich in aeolian druopean (thessaly) means ksifos early kind of spear, the metallic nose-edge of the spear,
    cause in case that shqiptar means form egypt then we have a small lingua conection with egypt,
    but in case of shqiptar means something like the sword, then the similarity with proto-greeks is obvious
    Gods what the f... happened to greek language?
    And the book thot parllara albanese is correct,
    and maybe solves problems and gives us light,
    cause until now albanian language is considered the most isolated and the lingua with the most unknown words
    if giuseppe catapano (Gaetapanou in greek means captain panos)
    is correct then a new search era begins, and may also corrects mistakes of the past of all balkans nations, it can help us all,
    anywhere i can find it? only italy arbers?
    Last edited by iapetoc; 17-01-11 at 20:59.

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    You people have to stop being Stupid and not complicate things, looking for a needle in hay.

    Shqiptar comes from the word Shqipe or Shqiponja which means Eagle, we all know Skenderbeg was the one that carried the eagle in his flag, Albanians called on this flag and identified with this flag.

    Shqiptar is a term Related to the Eagle plus Shqiptar is a new term Used by Albanians Probably after the 16th or 17th Century, Albanians bever before that refered to themselves as Shqiptar we refered to ourselves as Arbresh or Arber

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    Who was Georgija Kastriot (Gjergj Kastrioti, Georgius Castriotus, Georgios Kastriotis)?

    The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski.

    There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.

    One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika.

    Son sonila Voislava kralica
    son sonila od son se isplasila
    Mi rodila bela luta zmija
    So kriljata Epir pokrivala
    So glavata carigrad dopirala
    Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
    Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

    Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
    sho je ova chudo nevideno
    Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
    Se radveshe Ivanova roda
    Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
    Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

    Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
    Georgija - ime hristijansko
    Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

    ==========

    Ushche zora ne zorila
    Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
    Mi razbudi sina Georgija
    Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
    Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

    Zdravo zivo tije si storile
    I na divan skrisno besedeje
    Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
    Da si vratit zemji porobeni
    Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
    S crno kafe i s luta rakija
    Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
    Lichna moma kako samovila....


    Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with "King of Epirus and Macedonia"

    T. Spanducci, a writer from the 17th century in his book "Historia" wrote:

    "Georgija Kastriot was respected not only by his tribe, the Mijak tribe but all other nations, even the Turks. His mother was Vojislava, a Macedonian woman, daughter of a nobleman from Polog, which of course is a part of Macedonia..."
    And then he concludes:
    "The Mijak tribe and all the other Slovenes have many reasons for the glorification and the singed songs about their hero Georgija Kastriot, because he fought for the protection of the slav culture, for the christian cross and for the freedom, but also because he had the most noble name from his kind - Georgija"

    Even today in Mount Athos in the Monastery Hilandar(Χιλανδαρίου) you can see the writing of the monk Nikanor that says:
    Сеи хрисовуль есть господара Ивнна Кацтпиота македонскаго, и копίе его вь немъ есть. И пише како даеть монастирю нашему две села во и суща съ церковьίю Пресветы, Богородицы тамо сущίа, и описуеть вс по синорами, и прочат.

    P.S. Vita et res praeclare gestae Christi Athletae Georgii Castrioti Epirotarum principis, qui propter heroicam virtutem suam a Turcis Scander beg, id est Alexander Magnus cognominatus est libris XIII a Marino Barletio, Scodrensi sacerdote conscripta, denum cum licentia superiourum reimpressa, Zagrabiaeanno 1743.

    When the Ottomans found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas, a church in Lezhë, they opened it and made amulets of his bones, believing that these would confer bravery on the wearer.
    His grave is in a orthodox church yard.

    Coat of arms of the Kastrioti family

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    Gjon Kastrioti, father of Gjergj Kastrioti was a lord of Middle Albania and his mother Vojsava Tripalda was a princess from the Tripalda family, yes, from the Polog valley, north-western region of todays FYROM. By the way, in this region lives albanians and a very small slavic population. Just to remind you, few years ago, when the Albanians mentioned Skanderbeg, you punished and tortured while imprisoned them ... you have insulted and offended his name? Remember that many times he was betrayed by Slavic people. And now, suddenly, he became your hero? Stop with these lies and tackle your 20-year history.

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    Petar Popovski is a nutcase no one in the world would take him seriously.

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    yes of course kastrioti 20 sources say he is greek, 20 sources say he is Albanian 20 sources say he is slavian,
    WTF do you expect solution to that?
    tommorow 20 sources say he is montenegros WTF expect
    who to trust?
    albanians nationalists who recon skopje
    slavians nationalist who recon bardarska WTF
    Greeks nationalist who claim even Georgia
    bulgarians who say they are the only thracians
    !!!!!!!!
    we make spam propaganda every thread,

    besides according greeks his wife was Ariadne Androniki Komneni (ariadne adriyianite)
    WTF
    his grand father was constantine kastrioti regi casturia et ematheia
    in byzantine
    Κωνσταντινος Καστριωτης Ελεω Θεου ΡΩμαιωνΤιμαριων (baron) καστοριας και ημαθειας
    casturia et ematheia in greek makedonia?
    or castrat et mat in albania???
    :))))))))))

    WTF you expect?
    to find solution to that? no way
    :)))))))))
    only turks dont claim kastrioti

    besides the only thing i have not heard yet is that makedonians came from china....
    they were with huns or sarmatians or scythians ....
    and they speak turkish before koine ....................
    maybe i will hear also in future claims of turks
    !!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by iapetoc; 18-01-11 at 13:41.

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    "yes of course kastrioti 20 sources say he is greek, 20 sources say he is Albanian 20 sources say he is slavian"
    Where is the source link please.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emathus
    Emathus , Emathius or Amathus (Greek:Ἥμαθος, Ἠμάθιος, Ἄμαθος), was son of Makednos, from whom Emathia (the Homeric name of Lower Macedonia) was believed to have derived its name. The daughters of Pierus, the Pierides, are sometimes called Emathides. The Emathian or Emathius in Latin is a frequently used name by Latin poets for Alexander the Great. Actually, Emathus became son of Makednos in the second half of the fourth century, when Marsyas of Pella made Emathos and Pieros the eponymous of these two regions in Ancient Macedonia. Brusos was a son of Emathius, from whom Brusis, a portion of Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name. According to Solinus (9.10) , Emathius was unrelated and older than Makednos.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makednos
    Makedon, also Macedon or Makednos (Greek: Μακεδών), was the eponymous mythological ancestor of the ancient Macedonians according to various ancient Greek fragmentary narratives. In most versions, he appears as a native or immigrant leader who gave his name to the Macedon, previously called Emathia or Thrace.

    "Remember that many times he was betrayed by Slavic people."
    Which slavic people betrayed him?, can you link to your source.


    Gjon is not the real name of Georgijas father, his real name is Ivan and he was a Mijak (Macedonian tribe).
    Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources. The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the Mijak tribal group Kastrates. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

    In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language
    the following is written.

    "According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
    unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

    The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
    written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
    monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

    From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
    military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
    Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

    "My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
    Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."

    As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family.
    A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the
    personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava,
    Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element.

    A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
    in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

    Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and
    Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery.

    Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the
    genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources).

    The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus
    Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius).

    Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact.

    It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping
    the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence.

    The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot,
    the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on).

    Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

    Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).

    So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially
    imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt.

    In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space.

    First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin.

    Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija,
    his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija.

    And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this.

    Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

    Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.

    All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2

    The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant
    event for the history of the Macedonian people.

    Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447).

    Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91).

    In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot
    obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
    The Mijaks (Macedonian: Мијаци, Mijaci) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians who primarily live in the Mijačija area, comprising of the Reka and Mala Reka regions, along the Radika river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    THEN YOU ARE RIGHT
    IF Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar
    and the turks also called skeparn in areas like minor Asia smyrna and cappadokia

    so then
    we go to the other approach

    SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
    cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
    then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
    MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.

    OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
    also Ash means from but only in east ionic
    iapetoc
    You brought up that the word Shqiptar, as the Albanians call themselves, can be associated with the word Egyptian!

    And now look at one of the latest works of E1b1 haplogroup, which includes E-V13:

    Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani, Daniele Sellitto, Rosaria Scozzari

    A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms

    www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073


    "Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between twohaplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81,respectively) [6,8,10,13–16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (TableS2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the MiddleEast as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into twobranches separated by the geographic barrier of the MediterraneanSea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2)makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 andE-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups."


    The authors think that the E carriers arrived by sea (ships, boats?) fom Africa to the Balkans. It is probably from the territory of today's Egypt and Libya.

    So far only talked about the spread of haplogroup E in Europe through the Middle East. What do you think about the idea of Italian scientists? What has been said about it in Greek texts?

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