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Thread: Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

    Berber languages are quite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers E haplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to North Africa and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabic and French.

    I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg (part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Arab and French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.

    It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt.


    English, Berbers, Albanian


    1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit

    say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)

    my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)

    we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)

    than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)

    meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)

    fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)

    father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb

    thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)

    elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)



    2. Tamasheq

    black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)

    do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.)

    rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)

    boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)

    want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)

    carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)

    eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)

    fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)

    health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)

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    hm, this is new refreshing idea that maybe it is possible to partially reconstruct vocabularies of primary haplogroups...sounds interesting!!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Albanian national costume from Northern Albania



    and Berber costume


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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Albanian national costume from Northern Albania
    My dear!
    Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
    I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!!

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    [QUOTE=Dian;363579]
    My dear!
    Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
    I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!!
    Some examples:
    Paul Jovanovic, "The music lesson" 1890
    Peja Jovanovic - Izdajica
    Jovanovic - Albanian Sentinel Resting
    and other from albanians serving in Egypt:
    Arnaut officers & Egyptian recruits crossing the desert

    And, a collection of albanian national dress in one video!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgL65RaihcA
    I think now nobody will do the mistake to compare albanian dress with its of the berbers!
    And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:
    Handbook for travellers in Greece: including the Ionian Islands. Volume 1 By John Murray
    Last edited by Dian; 21-01-11 at 07:38.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:
    Dian
    You gave a good example for the Egyptian roots, and the custom of wearing fustanella (kilt) can be explained as the kilt worn in Ancient Egypt thousands of years BC.

    www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/Ancient-Egyptian-Clothes.htm

    “The ancient Egyptians made their own clothes from what their environment and nature gave them. Egypt has mostly a hot climate thus the use of clothes reflect material that is lightweight to suit this type of climate. The ancient Egyptians thus used clothes made of linen. The ancient Egyptians both men and women wore linen clothes all throughout the hot weather. The men wore short skirts around their waists called kilts, while the women wore straight fitting dresses with straps on their shoulders. The wealthy men wore pleated kilts, and the older men wore a longer kilt. When doing hard work, men wore a loin cloth, and women wore a short skirt. Children usually ran around nude during the summer months. Linen is a fabric made from plant fibers. The plant fiber comes from flax plants that grow abundantly along the banks of the Nile. “


    Kilts were of various sizes and shapes depending on the position in society, era, etc..






    Keep in mind that not all E carriers in the Balkans the Illyrians, but the Illyrians are E carriers, so that it is not surprising if some practices are unchanged, ie. that both Albanians and may be some Greeks have similar costume which pulling long origin of the land of ancestors.

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    I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.
    No, it is the traditional costume Tuareg and Albanian people.

    This clothing is not related to religion or Arab influence, and later, it was worn by both the Christians and animists also.

    You can read:

    en.wikipideia.org/wiki/Tagelmust

    "The tagelmust is worn only by adult males, and only taken off in the presence of close family."

    Only Tuareg and Albanian men covered the head and face in pre-Islamic period, not women!

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    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.
    Do not forget that all numbers about age of haplogroups are just very rough and ad-hoc estimations based on a model that cannot be verified in reality ....

    so, the numbers can easily be several times off...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.
    Cruciani et al (2007) estimated it but other researchers placed much closer. You can read (source: Wikipedia):

    Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".

    These numbers higlighted by Battaglia and Hassan are, I think, a lot more realistic. This period can also be connected with the creation of specific language groups within the Afro-Asian language family, which I will set the following posts.

    These estimated years say to us more important things. This means that the E holders arrived to the Europe, Balkans much later than 10,000 years BC, perhaps before 6,000 years ago or 4,000 years or more later.

    It has researchers also who dispute the thesis that the E carriers can be classified into Early farmers who, together with J and G carriers came to the Balkans (according to them only J & G remain Early farmers), in each case the E carriers came alone from Africa to Balkans rather than in pairs with J & G carriers.

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    This thread is as stupid as it can get.

    First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

    You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

    First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.

    The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.

    there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.

    First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

    If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

    Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

    If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

    Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.
    Shetop
    New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

    (It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

    Research in Macedonia FYROM:

    www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

    _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
    E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
    E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
    E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
    G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
    H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
    1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
    I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
    I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
    I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
    J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
    J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
    J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
    J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
    L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
    N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
    R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
    R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
    T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

    This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Shetop
    New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

    (It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

    Research in Macedonia FYROM:

    www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

    _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
    E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
    E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
    E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
    G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
    H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
    1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
    I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
    I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
    I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
    J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
    J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
    J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
    J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
    L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
    N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
    R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
    R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
    T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

    This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.
    Thank you very much Garrick. I didn't no about this data. It is obviously the biggest sample from Macedonia (FYROM) so far.

    I also saw how yes no has made a nice conclusion from this data - the significant presence of I2a2a-Dinaric distinguishes Slavic from non-Slavic populations in the Balkans. This borderline between Slavic and non-Slavic people in the Balkans appears to be approximately 15% of I2a2a-Dinaric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

    It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
    Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

    Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.
    we cover our head not face you idiot.its because the mountains are cold an much colder than serbian mountains, as north albania is very high in mal.<<< thracian word..we have nothing to do with arabs or berbers,i can sit in this lobby an show serbian language with iran,turk,an many more as well as with greek an turkish words that are same,not to mention serbia has 27% same genetics as albanians as much as i hate it,go to rugova an you will see albanians covering their head an when you get their you will see why they do its cold in the mountains,

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    No, it is the traditional costume Tuareg and Albanian people.

    This clothing is not related to religion or Arab influence, and later, it was worn by both the Christians and animists also.

    You can read:

    en.wikipideia.org/wiki/Tagelmust

    "The tagelmust is worn only by adult males, and only taken off in the presence of close family."

    Only Tuareg and Albanian men covered the head and face in pre-Islamic period, not women!
    They look the same but are not related…

    I assume the Berber used it for practical reasons.

    The one used by the Albanian Christian Malsor started for other reason. In fact the fabric is a death shroud that’s wrapped around a person when he dies. All though all Albanians would not mind this as being their national dress. Never the les it’s a clan costume were 4 villages were Christian and one was Muslim.

    Story is that after Gerg Kastioti uprising most of the Catholics fled to Italy fearing ottoman reprisals. The Malsor stayed in their villages in the north of Albania.

    When the ottoman army came and ask that they surrender else they would kill every man woman and child so that no one would be left to burry them. And according to this clans legend the next day the leaders of the clan returned to the negotiation wearing the death shrouds as a sign of their defiance.

    Were is a version the version woman were.




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    Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.

    There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.

    There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.
    Maciamo
    I knew Albanians who claimed that their roots are Egyptian/African. Albanian is also true took words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages but it is possible that their basic language is the AfroAsiatic language.

    Researchers had long puzzled where it comes from the word Dardania. With knowledge of haplogroup, and the fact that the Albanians and the Berbers are of the same origin, and the Berbers have preserved their language (and dialects):

    maybe the root word Dardania is discovered.

    In the eastern half oh the Sudan, the common word (usually classed as Arabic) for a country or tribal area is Dar. The word is however nor an Arabic word really, though adopted and used by Arabs as such. It is pre-Arab (ie Berber word) for an "encampment," and from this meaning of "camp," Dar or Tar, with its variant Dala, acquired in many parts of the Sudan and the Sahara meaning "hill," since camps were frequently on a hill or elevated ground.

    "The Tuareg Veil"
    H. R. Palmer, C. M. S., C. B. E.
    www.jstor/pss/1783318
    Last edited by Garrick; 14-01-11 at 02:22.

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    How is every body doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolSerboSlav View Post
    How is every body doing?
    You have an interesting name and flag for an Albanian.

    Off course you can hate me, but before that though, I suggest reading what I wrote at least twice. You would be able to understand that I just deal just with my own ancestry. This way, no one would take you seriously enough for a meaningful conversation.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    how pathetic you serbs are hahhahaaa, one of those serbs that should be absolutely refused to chat with, go get a job and leave my Albanians alone cuz no smart person is gonna listen to your old fashioned serbian criminal style bullshit

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    Where do you find the theory that Albanians are descended from the Egyptians? Is it you theory? Provide some proof about the theory please otherwise you are a speculator. You can speculate if that is you trade but since you claim to be a scientist you must renaunce the speculation. Back to the topic. Since the amount of E in Greeks is the same like in Albania why on Earth Greek language is not related to Berber the same way Albanian is, unless the first E people thought greek sound funny and they refused to learn it. If its true that Albanian is related to Berber which I think it is (Albanians have the word "Berber"=the person that cuts the hair), then the E halogroup in Europe is Albanian (by the proof of language relation), which means the E in Greece came from Albania, which in turn make Greece the "New Albania". Since the amount of E in Albanian is 28% I could not figure out why 72% of remaining people should learn the language of minority unless the language that the first E comers was so funny that was making them laughing hard.

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    Edit: Hindukush Brahami Indians.

    I was thinking of some SIberian Tribes that are of Mongolic Origin who carry more than 80% R1a.

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    This is from Steven Bird based on Mirabal,Varljen haplotypes:

    With regard to Montenegro, the preliminary evidence seems to indicate that the population is twice the age (in generations) of any other known V13 population anywhere. Importantly, this is without verification of SNPs, so it is not 100% certain that all of these HT's are V13 or even M35. Athey's predictor does call them E-M35 (or a subclade thereof) with a very high likelihood score (90+%) in nearly all cases, however. If they are M35, there is also a better than 90% chance that the ht is V13, just based on the neighboring populations. The other reasonable assumption that can be made is that the remaining ht's are M78*, again just based on their geographic neighbors and their SNP tested haplotype profiles.
    Twice the age means something like 2x4000 years.

    I really can't suppose when did E-V13 come to Europe.
    From my point of view Y-DNA map of Europe was significantly different not so long ago, 1800 years before present. When someone realises recent and large migrations actually happened then one of the conclusions is - it is very hard to assume what was happening before 500 BC.

    One more example - just a couple of weeks ago Klyosov wrote that western Slavic R1a migrated from the regions around Russian western borders towards Poland only 2300 years ago.
    I'm not taking this for a fact but I believe it is very close to reality.

    And E-V13 is I believe harder to understand than previous example.

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    Iapetoc, why are you talking to me about ancient Greece, Troy, Pelasgians, Macedonians and megaliths, when I have posted nothing remotely related to that in this thread or any other thread for many months ?

    This discussion is about Albanian language !

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