Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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maciamo you are little mistaken approach
many times the lingua scientist connect latium with early Homerick and minoan
the lemnian steale that found in lemnos island
and words that can be found only in 2 language connects them lingua
thoukidides sais that attica spoked Thrrsenian before archaic Greek

myrmidones and odyseeus were not relatives of myceneans
Pelasgians means sea people, from dorian pelag means flat and ionian pleg means float
what pelasgians has to do with continental Greece
in ancienty latin scientists search in greek cause of the relation,
the non IE words are similar,
Tyrshenian also was the language Troy

In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
Hector means 100 men
Paris means taker
Aeneas means glorius
kassandra means she attack mens will
the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans

Your approach about pelasgians in another site is not according Greek academy of science
Cycladetic a pelasgian were tottaly phoinecian-tyrrshenian culture,

an approach to dryopes (druids) tell us that they came from east minor asia and went North west before Myceneans and worship trees, their name means oak people
besides the similarity of kings
Achamenides midle east minor asia
Agamemnon south greece
and achaic
Means aga acha were words from kings
and achaic is rulers the kings class not a tribe

latium accordind the non IE words similar minoan means land and mount albani probably mount labani
labrys is the stone tool or axe of minoan and Larisa means rocky nose
now larissa is in the middle you call pelasgian and according greeks say not

the probability of tyrrshenian means thrrasin is strong
also Tyrus -Tyros and troy, cause its also a mycenian there as mysian

the Big Stone buildings and pyramids are in balkan,
likethe mycenean and laconia - Λακωνια means pyramid
and also in bosna
has to do probably with E-V13
that in far anciety <2000 Bc probably an african nation probably egyptians colonize area, or the existance with J2 probably means that they came as builders with phoenissians etc asiatic,

the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

I believe that E-v13 has to do with megalithic structures before myceneans time at myceneans time, the know how was given probably by egypt or libya or middle east by E-V13 carriers and a part of them went north-west to illyria, the south part was invaded by myceneans and is part Greeks, while the north part Didn't , was thracianiazed and was invaded by romans

the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,

BY THE WAY WHEN THE MAKEDONIAN INVADE????
AND FROM WHERE???
THAT IS FIRST TIME HEARD MACCIAMO !!!!!!!!!!!
can you give 1 source?
 
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Iapetoc, why are you talking to me about ancient Greece, Troy, Pelasgians, Macedonians and megaliths, when I have posted nothing remotely related to that in this thread or any other thread for many months ?

This discussion is about Albanian language !
 
In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
Hector means 100 men
Paris means taker
Aeneas means glorius
kassandra means she attack mens will
the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans


the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,

iapetoc
It's about Libya possible to fit with Berbers.

If Ethiopia is concerned it might be interesting to explore the Cushitic languages rather than Semitic.

What further surprise is that Europeans were first mentioned the Albanian language only in the period 1285, 1332, not earlier.
 
I suppose that the eminent linguists you are referring to are the kind of idiots who would classify English as a Germanic language, when it is perfectly obvious to anyone who has studied the language that it is a hybrid of Romance and Germanic languages (a Germano-Romance language if you will). About 70% of the vocabulary in English comes from Latin. Hundreds of English words from Latin don't even exist in other Romance languages (although they did exist in Latin).

Many if not all Indo-European languages incorporated words and grammatical structures from the tongues of conquered people. There is evidence of Afro-Asiatic syntax in Celtic languages, for instance. Greek and Latin borrowed substantially from Semitic languages (e.g. the Latin/Italian word for 'cow' is vacca, related to the Arabic baqara and proto-Semitic baqr, while the English word is related to the German Kuh, the Armenian kov, the Persian gav, the Sanskrit go, or the Tocharian ko).

So how could you say so confidently that Albanian is not a hybrid language based on both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European vernaculars ? If Celtic and Latin have loaned Afro-Asiatic terms and grammatical forms, how could Albanian language, spoken by a population descended in greater percentage from pre-Indo-European inhabitants originating in the Middle East and/or North Africa, not have elements of Afro-Asiatic languages ?

Here are some more words from

Berber (Tamasheq) and Albanian (Shqipe):

stripe (eng.), sәrrett (berb.), shirit (alb.)

awl (eng.), endel (berb.), fëndyell (y alb. no pronounciation in English, between u and e)

selling (eng.), (street selling) asәtijen (berb.), shitjen (alb.)

grass matting (eng.), esabar (berb.), hasër bar (alb.)

stretch (eng.), ijj (berb.), shtrij (alb.)
 
It would be interesting to read your thoughts - which one of the languages below is the ancestor language of todays Albanian language:

Balkan-map.png
 
Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on. I know the official propaganda of Serbia and New Greece and we have suffered a lot from them, even today.

But, now let's talk about the real Albanian language.
I'm new here, so I can't post image or links.
Here the first example:

Ik (albanian )
行く[iku] (japanese)
wiki (hawainian)
quick (english)

Can anyone tell me, how these words are related?
 
Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.

Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.
 
So sturmgewehr

You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
or you say that it was before??
do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
or not?
 
Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.

Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....
 
So

You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
or you say that it was before??
do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
or not?

I pretty much agree with you, those Megalithic Cultures were either E V13 or J2b Carriers, since the Neolithic CUlture which was born in the Middle east was brought to the Balkans by these people.
 
Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....

That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.
 
That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.

thing is they do cluster with each other...
according to

Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe
Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.

Ystrclusters.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png


Albanians (cluster 13) cluster first with central Anatolia (cluster 5),
than this cluster clusters with
cluster made of cluster 18 (Serbs, Croats, central Ukraine, Romania, east and west Hungary) and cluster 10 (? not indicated anywhere),

than this cluster composed of clusters 13, 18, 5 and 10 clusters with north west Africa (cluster 3),

and only than this cluster clusters with cluster made of clusters 7(northeast Africa?) , 12, 15 and 2 (Greeks , Macedonians & Bulgars).....

east Europe cluster 17 (Russians and Poles) cluster with Caucasus (11) and than this cluster clusters with west Europe cluster 6..


*Cluster 13 (Albanian) was registered as second in frequency in the region of Anatolia and
the border region of Latvia,Belarus,and the Russian Federation (data not shown).

in any case northwest Africa (Berbers) thus cluster with Balkans.... perhaps due to Phoenicians... or due to some much older link... or due to settlement of Vandals and Alans in northwest Africa...
 
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I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.

You say, but nobody had said here before, you can see all previous posts.


Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.
Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.



It is no longer current.

You can read new scientific articles about it.

Haak et. al.

PLOS Biology, November 2010

Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

We genetically characterized a population of the earliest farming culture inCentral Europe, the Linear Pottery Culture (LBK; 5,500–4,900 calibrated B.C.) and used comprehensive phylogeographic andpopulation genetic analyses to locate its origins within the broader Eurasian region, and to trace potential dispersal routesinto Europe.

The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.

When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.

Now, you can look at this picture of the spread of haplogroup E.


52658671.jpg



Pay attention to the E-M78, from which it originated and E-V13 and territory. It is believed that the source is Upper Egypt. With picture you can see that E bearers went to Western Africa and north into Western Asia. So the current holders of E-V13 haplogroups in the Balkans is very likely come from the Upper Egypt (and more before from Somalia/Ethiopia).


Now look at this picture.

36543816.jpg



Here you can see that the Egyptian and Proto-berber (formerly classified as Hamitic, and Afro-Asiatic, and now increasingly used the term Afrasian) occurred about 9000 years ago.

The separation Chusitic and Proto-North-Erythraic languages occurred before 13,000 years, a Protoboreafrasian and Protochadic were taking about 11,000 years ago.

We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).

If E carriers previously crossed into Asia, then it makes sense to look for similarities in some of the languages that are climbing up the tree in Figure.


I said before, no invariant knowledge, science is a dynamic, new research results and lead to changes earlier opinions, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.
 
The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.
When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.
In contrast, Y chromosome SNPs could be typed for only three out of the eight male individuals (37.5%; Table S2) identified through physical anthropological examination, reflecting the much lower copy number of nuclear loci [22]. After typing with the GenoY25 assay, individual deb34 was found to belong to hg G (M201), whereas individuals deb20 and deb38 both fall basally on the F branch (derived for M89 but ancestral for markers M201, M170, M304, and M9), i.e., they could be either F or H (Table 1). To further investigate the hg status beyond the standard GenoY25 assay, we amplified short fragments around SNP sites M285, P287, and S126 to further resolve deb34 into G1, G2*, and G2a3, and around SNP site M69 to distinguish between F and H [26]. deb34 proved to be ancestral for G1-M285 but derived for G2*-P287 and additional downstream SNP S126 (L30), placing it into G2a3. deb20 and deb38 were shown to be ancestral at M69 and hence basal F (M89), and remained in this position because we did not carry out further internal subtyping within the F clade.
Haak W, Balanovsky O, Sanchez JJ, Koshel S, Zaporozhchenko V, et al. (2010) Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000536. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!:confused:
 
So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!:confused:

Dian
It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.

The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).

Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:

"However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."
 
i still believe that is very much connected with J2,
the propabilty both came same time but different class like merchants and builders,
besides shqiptar is a turkish word shqepar meaning axe, the only other civilization with axe is minoan lavrys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

the possibility of a big number o turcish words leads me to the conclusion that are hetit and to a though or thesis that are 2 E one that unite troy via hetit and lydian support, became mysian and travel with moesian to gaete-dacian
and one that is connected with greeks only,

but the IE similarity of achamenides agamemnon achaic people and achaic also agaic-> to geg, also the gygy people on lydia and in moesia, leads me to a conclusion that the E
1) either was cut from south balkan E nad reunite after lingua change in south E
2) either was another and has to do with lycaonia and lydia, and was assimilated by troy thracians and pass by myssian to moesia
 
We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).
There was an italian, arberesh origin linguist who has done a study about the albanian language and the language of ancient Egypt. He thought the ancient egyptian hieroglyphs can be understood with albanian language, but the indo-eu linguists have never trusted this theory.
He compared the coptic language, the language of hittites, aramaic language, the arabic language with albanian.
The book is written in the italian language, and was not published more than a few copies.
Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!
By the way "Thot" in the alb. means " He tell" 3d person singual.
Another thing! To speak about the albanian language you must know it! Because the examples and the translate of them you brought here, can make laugh every albanian. This is a friendly suggestion!
 
Dian
It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.
The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).
Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:
"However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."
I was referring to this part:
The Y chromosome hgs obtained from the three Derenburg early Neolithic individuals are generally concordant with the mtDNA data (Table 1). Interestingly, we do not find the most common Y chromosome hgs in modern Europe (e.g., R1b, R1a, I, and E1b1), which parallels the low frequency of the very common modern European mtDNA hg H (now at 20%–50% across Western Eurasia) in the Neolithic samples. Also, while both Neolithic Y chromosome hgs G2a3 and F* are rather rare in modern-day Europe, they have slightly higher frequencies in populations of the Near East, and the highest frequency of hg G2a is seen in the Caucasus today [15].
Now, the E hg is a Y-DNA hg, not a mtDNA hg. May be one day we may find another grave old like LBK with E hg. There is any study in the Balkans about this?
 
laugh? you may laugh but it is a class name of a nation
shqiptar in albanian
shqapan in greek
shqepar in turkish

1 the albanians
2 the builders
3 the builders hammer
any connection

and open your eyes

Alb thot
grec toutos - tuto -u as u in ucraine

want more?
 
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