Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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Ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia ???? WTF Are you saying that I M26 in western Europe (including the British island) is proto Serb ?
no, read what I said...
I didnot said proto-Serb tribes
but
proto-Serb related tribes...

let me draw it for you...

donkey is horse related species... they are not the same, but are much more related than donkey and lion, or donkey and aligator, or donkey and ant, or donkey and falcon...

I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?
oh. grow up and learn to read what is written and not what you think is written...

spread of I2a1 in north Africa correlates fairly well with Berbers...that is clear from spread of Berbers and spread of I2a1... but that doesnot mean that Berbers are I2a1...it means that they have admixture of I2a1 while other people of Africa so far do not show such correlation....

You clearly have an Haplogroup I2a obssession. Stop seeing haplogroup I and Serbian related tribes everywhere

Dear forum psychiatrist wannabe, I apologize for offending you with possibility that in ancient times ancestors of Sardinans were related to ancestors of Serbs, but fact is I2a1 haplogroup is related to I2a2 haplogroup...now if you can't live with that idea, perhaps you should do something about your problems...

regarding my clear obsession with haplogroup I2a, if I would want to be as rude as you, I would say you have obsession with G2a as you clearly see Sardinian related G2a as basis of Sherden, Aryans... I don't mind if you do "clearly see" G2a everywhere, but do not forbid me to see I2a where I think it is relevant...
 
This is an albanian expression and in linguistics is called a subjoined word. Of course there is no need for a translation but is read: që ranë. The root of the word is ra, which in today albanian is the past of the verb fall(strike, hit) or alb bie(qelloj, godas).
So that is the verb:when it strikes (me i ra), which gets used when
1. Lightning Strikes(Godet(rrufeja)
2. Lightning falls(Bie(rrufeja)

Dian

Thanks for this post.

We have now learned another word that the ancient Egyptian and Albanian.

Still in primary school the pupils taught in ancient Egyptian history about Ra (or Re).

Do not go with too much meanings, we move from basic:

www.crystalinks.com/hathor.html

ra, re (anc. eg.), ray of light (eng.)
 
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades
 
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades

iapetoc
People from Somalia to Egypt writes very interesting articles, also from the Middle East and some Albanians themselves, regardless of Dian said to be Roma, but they are not Roma, just the Albanians, and all that can be used,

of course, we will rely primarily on contemporary scientific sources and old texts, to get closer to the true state of things.

Trombetta et al in their recent work write, based on rigorous scientific testing, that the E carriers, came by sea to the Balkans.

The first question is:

1) Where was their homeland?

It is clear that this is Upper Egypt, but we want to locate closer and see that the tribes.

The second question is:

2) When they came to the Balkans?

On this question, if we follow Cruciani et al: 2000 to 2700 BC. But if you think that it was earlier the date we will use your assessment and note date of Cruciani et al.

A third issue is:

3) Where E-carriers first arrived?

I focused on the fact that they came from Egypt or Libya, the first and second:

3a) Egypt / LIBYA, Peloponnese or
3b) Egypt / Libya, Crete.

An alternative route is: 3c) Egypt / Libya, Sicily, Western Greece.
 
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades


660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png


Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

Haplogroup-J2.jpg

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

R1A_map.jpg

Haplogroup_R1b.gif


could it be that:

Doric Greeks (Epir and Peloponnese) and Illyrians = J2b
ancient Macedonians = R1a, J2b (original Doric element) and G2a
Aeolic Greek, Dardanians, Paionians, Dacians and Thracians = E-V13+ R1b
Ionic Greek = E-V13 + J2b
Pannoni (settled most of province of Illyria when it was emptied by Dacians) and Veneti (including Antes, Vistula Veneti, Liburnians and Vindelici (and white Serbs of Bohemia among them)) = I2a2 + R1a
Scordisci = I1 + I2a2 + E-V13+ R1b
Getea - I2b1
Sarmatians - tribes of different origin G2a, I2a2 and R1a
Scythians - R1a
Goths - I1
Magyars - R1a
 
How yes no
looks good but carefull about Makedonians,

we dont know if G2a is Greek or Turkish from 400 years occupation,
( i have G2a)

west Makedonia has quite big E-v13 and central 15-20 J2b,
melting pot, also R1b 10%
known thracians is from dardania to black sea, at black sea big J2, (really thracian? or ionian colonization?
west thracians have 20-30% E-V13 and east thracians have 30-40% j2
thracia starts from bosna dardania and ends at minor asia and in minor asia

good work,

so the south-Thrassian Tyrsshenian Troyan Minoan relative to Phoenician naval areas (Levant) must be J2B
and north-thrassian E-V13 (from assimilation - thracianization)
meaning that the E-V13 of dardania and peloponese either is 2 (from sicily to dardania) either is one that split to 2 after invasions and change language,

about slavian the I2a2 at dardania probably has to do with the serbia of Stephan Dussan (capital-Skopje).
 
How yes no
looks good but carefull about Makedonians,

we dont know if G2a is Greek or Turkish from 400 years occupation,
( i have G2a)

will be updated :

west Makedonia has quite big E-v13 and central 15-20 J2b,
melting pot, also R1b 10%
J2b is Doric component, there has to be reason Macedonians are mentioned as Dorians...and it is as you say centrally placed...
E-V13 may be later spread of neighbours as it is in west part
E-V13 and R1b might be assimilated previous people

known thracians is from dardania to black sea, at black sea big J2, (really thracian? or ionian colonization?
I think ionian colonization

west thracians have 20-30% E-V13 and east thracians have 30-40% j2
thracia starts from bosna dardania and ends at minor asia and in minor asia
thracians had some I2a2 too as there is I2a2 in Asia minor as well...

]about slavian the I2a2 at dardania probably has to do with the serbia of Stephan Dussan (capital-Skopje).
no, I2a2 is there also in south Albania and Lydia in asia minor...so part of it is pre-slavic and its spread from Asia minor was twofold: 1) via Thrace and Scordisci, 2) by movement of Veneti tribes (later Slavs) from Paphlagonia to Europe

btw. Scordisci - they were originally on south all the way to Sar mountain (it was Scordus in Greek) that is named after them
(areas of south Kosovo, east Macedonia, northeast Albania) and on north deep in Pannonia, and also in east Bosnia - matching very well spread of Serbs...
if Sclaveni = Slavs, than Scordisci = Sordisci which is same as Serdi who entered Thrace from area of Scordisci

area of influence of Scordisci is known to be all the way to Slovakia, thus all the way to white (or west) Serbs in Bohemia
they are Celtic in culture (language unknown), but so are Vindelici and Bohemia Serbs among them...

I think that Scordisci are likely proto-Serbs....
and that their spread may have started from town Sardis in Lydia and extended to Bohemia.. their core was moving to Dacia, Illyria, Pannonia.... but were always around Serbia

I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy says I2a2 was in Illyrians as well
high variance and low frequency of E-V13 in Dalmatia might be about pre-Illyrian E-V13 people...

updated:

Doric Greeks (Epir and Peloponnese) and Illyrians = J2b + I2a2
ancient Macedonians = R1a + J2b + I2a2, G2a (?)
Aeolic Greek, Paionians, Dacians and Thracians = E-V13+ R1b+ some Doric/Illyrian mix (I2a2 + J2b)
Dardanians = Ev13 + R1b
Ionic Greek = E-V13 + J2b + I2a2
Pannoni (settled most of province of Illyria when it was emptied by Dacians) and Veneti (including Antes, Vistula Veneti, Liburnians and Vindelici (and white Serbs of Bohemia among them)) = I2a2 + R1a
Scordisci = I2a2 + E-V13+ R1a+ I1 +R1b
Getea - I2b1
Sarmatians - tribes of different origin G2a, I2a2 and R1a
Scythians - R1a
Goths - I1
Magyars - R1a
 
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no idont believe ancient makedonians have I2a2,
as you see it seams like j2b was push from north, from the big concentration,

I still believe that, has to do with Dusan, but also Scordisci came after makedonian kingdom
i believe that I2a2 came in Greece via Dusan or simeon, and the peace times and at ottoman empire,
dont think that was in ancient makedonia,
maybe in thessaly a part from minor Asia the Druopes that went north,

i also believe that % bellow ten, except R1 must not be mentioned,
probably 1500 and 3000 years after a % of 10 is normal, especially at roman times via slavery or in ottoman times from small immigrations due to small wars,

but seems ok,

the other fact has to do with inside miggrations
so us to cut assimilated Y-DNA, as local that joins after invasions

but that is a long story

and the differences of Y-Dna,
for example the J2b in minor asia is from levant, or from crete, sub J2b etc
cause crete has an autochonus J2b,
 
Garrick

i said i don't see the eye,

propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

El-las means the stones of Ell
Ill-yri I dont know,
but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
El Ellion the high god, the top god
El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
I believe Ill means the same

Iapetoc

Andi Zeneli is an Albanian who speculated that the Albanians are the descendants of the Atlanteans.
He sees the influence of Albanians from Africa and Europe until Thailand, for example Thailand is named according him one of the oldest Illyrian tribes Taulant.

For our topic is interesting his seeing El, Yl, ie. Il (not "Ail").

Albeni writes:

"Zeus, an Illyrian god had an eagle as his guard. Very often Zeus was transformed into an eagle. In the bible the ark of Moses was surrounded by the flying creatures. Amphisbena the strange creature found in Bestiary THE SECOND FAMOUS BOOK AFTER THE BIBLE (Free Trial Amphi means double) was an eagle with the body of a snake and if we look carefully the Albanian eagle has the tongue of a snake and the old symbol had a very prolonged body). It was born In Helio-polis in Egypt where the sun god El or Yl in Illyrian was worshipped."

This of Zeus as an Illyrian god you will annotate more than that I try, but interesting is his claim that the Illyrians in Egypt celebrated the sun God, El or Yl.

Since you've had a similar idea now would be good if you can spread to clarify that everybody understands.

And we are fully explain the connection to the Cushitic word Il, Ila or Ili, depending on how pronounced the Kushite people, which means Eye.

www.spiritofra.com/Utchat.htm

“The utchat represents the Egyptian sacred eye. The right eye, the Eye of Ra, the Sun symbolizes. The left eye, the Eye of Thoth, symbolizes the Moon. Together they represent the Eyes of Horus the Elder. The utchat, therefore, is a symbol for the ability to spiritually perceive that which is illuminated, as well as that which is hidden. This section is dedicated to the illumination of that which is hidden. "

So Eye of Ra and Eye of the Toth are Eyes of Horus. Ra is the sun god, and in Ancient Egyptian means ray of light, we saw that Dian pointed out that the word ra in Albanian has similar meanings.

Symbol of the Eye of Ra:
eye_ra.jpg


Thus,

the Illyrians El, Yl or Il is sunny deity and

Cushitic word Il, Ila, or Ili is eye.


This can be a good track connection Illyrians with Kushite.
 
no idont believe ancient makedonians have I2a2,
as you see it seams like j2b was push from north, from the big concentration,

variance of J2b tells us it came from Asia minor...it was spread in Europe mostly along sea coasts...in Dorians it can be about people who went somewhat north and later came back... they could have picked up some I2a2 in Asia minor or on their voyage to north...

btw. Homer seems to call Dorians 3-fold race... thus made out of 3 races

The trichaikes Dorians are mentioned in Odyssey 19. 177. The epithet trichaikes, an hapax legomenon, has been translated either as of threefold race (e.g. denoting the three Dorian sub-tribes Hylleis,Dymanes, Pamphyloi)[11] or long-haired from the noun θρίξ (see Spartan hairstyle) .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
Hylleis (sounds as hellenic/illyrian component) might be J2b, Pamphyloi (sounds as Paphlagonia where Eneti used to live) might be I2a2

I still believe that, has to do with Dusan, but also Scordisci came after makedonian kingdom
i believe that I2a2 came in Greece via Dusan or simeon, and the peace times and at ottoman empire,

look at more logical explanation

Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png



but comparing to I2a2 map... it is not perfect correlation as in fact I2a2 is elevated in areas not settled by Slavs in asia minor and south and southeast Greece...so some or much of I2a2 is pre-Slavic...
though e.g Draguvites could have been cause for I2a2 hotspot in wider area of Macedonia

btw. Maciamo's I2a2 map is not really precise as the hole in I2a2 spread should be on Kosovo and not in east Serbia...., and as Serbia has more I2a2 than shown on map...


Haplogroup_I2a.gif

and the differences of Y-Dna,
for example the J2b in minor asia is from levant, or from crete, sub J2b etc
cause crete has an autochonus J2b,
yes knowing exact distribution of subbranches will make it much easier to guess...
 
According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

the connection with libya is also an inderesting approach,
but was done by cretan archologists in 1970 and fall cause minoan seems to invade libya before phoenician, the similarity of cities and buildings, is more between lebanon crete and upper egypt,
now about the approach of cruciani et al maybe i m wrong or maybe they but we have almost near 3000,
that connects with different architecture on megalithic, and the age of megalithic structures,
now the connection with the lions worshipers is probably theory cause lions were greeks cities wηere even mycaene

the photo is big so open it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

but i dont know the time the corrent,
Nubia was known as Kush, or, in Classical Greek usage, included under the name Ethiopia.




hmmm its a good idea
also that goddes bastia is similar to Greek goddes Estia for me lady of fire
but to artemis according herodotus,
although i dont find big similarity to artemis, only in people myths and bad signs
and both virgins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast_%28goddess%29

about that garick
My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.

i belive that if Dian finds the book he says

Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!

then we have enough and we can find similarities with Greek wich also has Big E-V13

about the approach by sea or by land i find it little difficult by land and not leave small traces of E-V13
exept in case that they were a few at that time and fast move, they should have left a tribe with 25% E-V13 in the road,
That is why i believe that E came by sea,
either from cyprus to Aegean sea, east or west coach,
or from north africa to sicily to aimos peninsula,
or straght to peloponese
besides the first approach in cyclades civilization leads us to admit that sailing was founded before 4000 BC

about that garrick

And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.

hmmmm

according epidamnians
with illyrus was a son of cyclopes, cycllopes have 1 eye, probably the 1 eye of ra
above head
or the eye of Horus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye_of_Horus.svg

to some scientists the megalithic structures are name cyclopeians, cyclops made them,
to hommer cyclops lived in sicily,
according to them cyclopes invade and stayed in illyria,

But i m missing the eye symbol, have you ever seen an eye symbol in balkans?

sometimes i really wonder why Alexander went to oasis of siwa

Iapetoc
One of the great megalithic structures Neolithic was found in southern Egypt.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa

“Nabta Playa was once a large basin in the Nubian Desert, located approximately 800 kilometers south of modern day Cairo[1] or about 100 kilometers west of Abu Simbel in southern Egypt,[2] 22° 32' north, 30° 42' east.[3]”

It is important to know at what level was this civilization:

“Archaeological discoveries reveal that these prehistoric peoples led livelihoods seemingly at a higher level of organization than their contemporaries who lived closer to the Nile Valley:[2].”

It is important to know where these people came:

“Findings also indicate that the region was occupied only seasonally, most likely only in the summer period, when the local lake filled with water for grazing cattle.[2] Analysis of human remains suggests that these people migrated from sub-Saharan Africa.”

Also important is the impact that they had in Egypt:

“By the 6th millennium BC, evidence of a prehistoric religion or cult appears, with a number of sacrificed cattle buried in stone-roofed chambers lined with clay.[2] It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult.”

The conclusion of researchers of these structures is as follows:

"The symbolism embedded in the archaeological record of Nabta Playa in the Fifth Millennium BC is very basic, focussed on issues of major practical importance to the nomads: cattle, water, death, earth, sun and stars."[8]

Having now handled by several different populations:
The ancient Egyptians,
Kushites,
Berbers,
Nilo Saharans (Nubians, etc.) or
Ethiopians.

In the next post we will try to clarify who are the most likely ancestors of Illyirians in the Balkans.
 
Garrick Greeks and Illyrians have same ancestors

iapetoc
I keep in mind your thought that Illyros was from the Middle East and that he is the J haplogroup.

This is because some new findings indicate that among the Albanians J haplogroup was negligible, and I will put it and we will comment.

I will also set another interesting DNA finding related to the age of the nations and we will comment on it.

I will put in an interesting finding related to the Peloponnese and the wider Balkan.

Reasonable is doubt among researchers that there is a close connection between the Illyrians and the Albanians.

Also indicative is that the Albanian and Greek differ enormously if the origin is same, that the Albanian in itself probably has elements of Afro-Asiatic languages and remains a mystery as to the language recorded by Europeans until the early 14th century.

But we will continue with the study of Africa to try to determine E carriers and arrival to the Balkans.
 
Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

Shetop
New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

(It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

Research in Macedonia FYROM:

www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.
 
Shetop
New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

(It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

Research in Macedonia FYROM:

www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.

Thank you very much Garrick. I didn't no about this data. It is obviously the biggest sample from Macedonia (FYROM) so far.

I also saw how yes no has made a nice conclusion from this data - the significant presence of I2a2a-Dinaric distinguishes Slavic from non-Slavic populations in the Balkans. This borderline between Slavic and non-Slavic people in the Balkans appears to be approximately 15% of I2a2a-Dinaric.
 
What time is E1b1b1b-M81 ??
I mean How old Scientists Believe?

so I2a2 came with Invasions of 500 AD or existed?
or existed and at 600 AD simply raised up?
 
What time is E1b1b1b-M81 ??
I mean How old Scientists Believe?

so I2a2 came with Invasions of 500 AD or existed?
or existed and at 600 AD simply raised up?

Iapetoc
fact that the Berber haplogroup E-M81 found among the Albanians still further complicates already complicated story of E holders and Albanians, which is extremely complicated, but point by point something we will lighten.

And that for I2a2, How yes now and other, trying to discover, there was still one mystery, if R1a are Slavs it means that the I2a2 are slavinized? But when, how, etc.? More unsolved questions.

It is possible it once existed I language, and there are other forums in Europe, which is widely discussed on.
 
Hmmmmmmmm

Garrick

I mean that R gave language ,
Could some R be rulers of others??/

For Example a small Nation of R1a with Bronze power conquer a Bigger Nation (A) of I2a2 at ex Ucraine and invades Balkans an area of anothernation (B) I2a2 But with soldiers of (A) then the summit of I2a2 would be raised? also the % of previous R1a would be Smaller,

where can i find informations about E-M81?
especially time of mutation, and % in Africa
 
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