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Thread: An Approach to ancient Thracian DNA

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    An Approach to ancient Thracian Lingua, DNA



    Although Aimos peninsula is the Mixed, specially to south (Byzantnine-ottoman empire, and ancient Greek and roman douloi (worker-services, not sclaves), we see 3 major and one minor Y haplogroups,
    the 3 major are E (E-V13, E-M123) J2, I2a2, and the minor is G,
    The ancient Thracians was the 2nd Biggest Numerous nation after indians according Herodotus, the map approach gives almost same quantity for all in ancient Thrace but the biiger to inner Europe is I2a2,

    if J2 has to do with Greece then what has to do with ancient thracians,
    then the around of ancient thracian area has to do with colonization and makedonian expand to east,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieres
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thracian_Greeks

    then the proper genes PIE are the rulers of E or I2,

    1rst) Hypothesis

    If R connect E that has to do with an arc from egypt then they must have with Gold and customs, so they build pyramids, (greek laconia and bosna and elsewerein balkans,) and cover dead kings face with gold,
    Greek E area peloponese, golden mask
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlm6A7-Xqhc
    Thracian gold mask found in bulgaria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zlatnamaska.jpg

    the possibilty that albanians rulled by thracians from geto-dacia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...race_and_Dacia
    the tribe albocense
    and the city of alba julia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Julia

    links E with ancient thracians

    But numerically does not fit,
    also does not give passage to miner asia

    2nd) the Thracians were rulers of I2

    Numerically fits, and makes herodotus state that Dacians are the most taugh among Thracians, cause dacia has more I than E,
    a) Explains the passage to minor asia with the big I ratio near Phrygia
    causes from makedons we know that the Bruges (mak dialect) b->pf Phruges->Phrygians (Koine),
    b)Explains the big I in east makedonia, and low E and Big E in west and small I in West cause Pieri were thracians and the shample from Serres (30% I2) are from were Pieri and Maedi lived,
    c) Explains the maedi migration to minor asia (maedi bithynia)
    d) Expalins the bithyni-Thyni migration to minor (East Bithynia),

    AND THAT I2a2, is a trully european haplogroup that went East and did not come from the west,
    maybe explains that a celt R1b ruled over I2a
    The big ratio % of I2a2 around bosnia and Serbia where the tribaldi (maybe proto-serbs) ancient Thracian tribe
    and the Big I2a2 in Dacia and around
    makes me believe THAT ANCIENT THRACIANS WERE CELTS ruled I2a2

    1 simple linguistica example
    greek-thracian area Serres mari means good woman
    greek-cretan dia =day
    athenean koine δειλι dili = end of day
    Celt-English merry = happy (merry christmas)
    Celt-English Day
    AlbanoDacian have a nice day ->mire Dita
    the mire is probably good
    and dita is the day,
    if a dacian or an ex-Yugoslavian (hrvatska-bosna-srpski-slovensko)
    or a bulgarian can find more lingua its ok

    The possibility That Thracians WERE CELTS rulling I is more strong than the 1 approach
    The linguistic probably has to do with the persian occupation
    the greek influence,
    The Roman occupation,
    The slavonization
    and the scythian and sarmates influence (probably slavonization) around Romania.

    The possibility that ancient thracian speak Slavic or proto slavic language is an interesting idea, but i m not a linguist, the possibilty that they return east ....

    besides balkan is ..... and the more the data the more map change colours,

    for example the jews colonie in salonique,
    almost 0% of jews-semetic results although they were and are a big comnunity in thessaly makedonia and thessaloniki 150 000, 50-50 christians- jews.



    Its more possible that Herodotus speaking of thracians mention Celts, and celtospeakers, cause slavonick people if were scythians-sarmatians etc were almost unknown or liitle known at that time
    besides from north italy to makedonia to ucraine, and also in minor asia, hmmm it is big
    Last edited by iapetoc; 13-01-11 at 13:14.

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    The similarity between Thracian and Celtic languages stems from the fact that they are both Indo-European languages. Nothing more. Keep in mind that Sanskrit, Classical Greek, Latin, Gaulish Celtic and Old German, which diverged from the mother Proto-Indo-European tongue by over 3000 years, were still mutually intelligible to a surprising degree (much more than modern German, Italian, Greek and Hindi).

    The Indo-European presumably belonged to haplogroups R1a1a, R1b1b2a1 and G2a3ba1, so I don't see how the original Thracians could be I2a2 or E1b1b. These were the haplogroups of the indigenous populations of the Balkans that were subdued by the Thracians, Macedonians and other Indo-European peoples came from the steppes. Considering that the Thracian migration to the Balkans is dated to 1500 BCE, I would place them in the predominantly R1a1a group from the Yamnaya culture. R1b1b2a surely arrived in the region during the first waves of Indo-European incursions, mostly in the 3rd millennium BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Although Aimos peninsula is the Mixed, specially to south (Byzantnine-ottoman empire, and ancient Greek and roman douloi (worker-services, not sclaves), we see 3 major and one minor Y haplogroups,
    the 3 major are E (E-V13, E-M123) J2, I2a2, and the minor is G,
    The ancient Thracians was the 2nd Biggest Numerous nation after indians according Herodotus, the map approach gives almost same quantity for all in ancient Thrace but the biiger to inner Europe is I2a2,

    if J2 has to do with Greece then what has to do with ancient thracians,
    then the around of ancient thracian area has to do with colonization and makedonian expand to east,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieres
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thracian_Greeks

    then the proper genes are E or I2,

    1rst) Hypothesis

    If E has to do with an arc from egypt then they must have with Gold and customs, so they build pyramids, (greek laconia and bosna and elsewerein balkans,) and cover dead kings face with gold,
    Greek E area peloponese, golden mask
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8PzN...eature=related
    Thracian gold mask found in bulgaria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zlatnamaska.jpg

    the possibilty that albanians are thracians from geto-dacia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...race_and_Dacia
    the tribe albocense
    and the city of alba julia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Julia

    links E with ancient thracians

    But numerically does not fit,
    also does give passage to miner asia

    2nd) the Thracians were I2

    Numerically fits, and makes herodotus state that Dacians are the most taugh Thracians, cause dacia is more I than E,
    a) Explains the passage to minor asia with the I ratio near Phrygia
    causes from makedons we know that the Bruges (mak dialect) b->pf Phruges->Phrygians (Koine),
    b)Explains the big I in east makedonia, and low E and Big E in west and small I in West cause Pieri were thracians and the shample from Serres (30% I2) are from were Pieri and Maedi lived,
    c) Explains the maedi migration to minor asia (maedi bithynia)
    d) Expalins the bithyni-Thyni migration to minor (East Bithynia),

    AND THAT I2a2, is a trully european haplogroup that went East and did not come from the west,
    The big ratio % of I2a2 around bosnia and Serbia where the tribaldi (maybe proto-serbs) ancient Thracian tribe
    and the Big I2a2 in Dacia and around
    makes me believe THAT ANCIENT THRACIANS WERE CELTS with I2a2

    1 simple linguistica example
    greek-thracian area Serres mari means good woman
    greek-cretan dia =day
    athenean koine δειλι dili = end of day
    Celt-English merry = happy (merry christmas)
    Celt-English Day
    AlbanoDacian have a nice day ->mire Dita
    the mire is probably good
    and dita is the day,
    if a dacian or an ex-Yugoslavian (hrvatska-bosna-srpski-slovensko)
    or a bulgarian can find more lingua its ok

    The possibility That Thracians WERE CELTS is more strong than the E approach
    The linguistic probably has to do with the persian occupation
    the greek influence,
    The Roman occupation,
    The slavonization
    and the scythian and sarmates influence (probably slavonization) around Romania.

    The possibility that ancient thracian speak Slavick or proto slavick language is an interesting idea, but i m not a linguist,

    besides balkan is ..... and the more the data the more map change colours,

    for example the jews colonie in salonique,
    almost 0% of jews-semetic results although they were and are a big comnunity in thessaly makedonia and thessaloniki 150 000, 50-50 christians- jews.

    iapetoc
    Your idea that Old Serbs were Thracians can easily explain the many concerns.

    1. The writings of Herodotus and many other ancient Greek and Byzantine texts.

    2. Old articles on Tribals and other tribes as Serbs and Tribals and probably these tribes at the same time were Thracians.

    3. The official listing of the Serbs as Rasčani which is almost the same as Tračani (Rascians = Thracians), many names in Serbian countries pointing to words derived from Thrakia.

    4. Actual impossibility of Hamitic Illyrians from Africa to populate the entire area under the Rome called Illyric, last point Afro Illyrian tribes went middle of today's Montenegro.

    5. Vicinity of the Thracians Anatolia where the holders of I haplogroup crossed into the Balkans before 25,000 years ago and today they called the Old Europeans.

    6. Easily track back other people who also could belong to a haplogroup.

    7. Connect with the Vinca culture and other related cultures of possible carriers of I haplogroups.


    One key thing must realize:

    1. Evidence that the Thracians were carriers of I haplogroup.

    It is key problem because the researchers classified Thracians as R1a carriers, even as maybe E carriers.


    It would be good, another:

    2. Discover the original language of I carriers.

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    but all these has nothing to do with my questions
    cause that I wonder is
    1. which is thracian DNA?
    2. IF I2a2 was Thracian, were proto-slavonic people ???
    3. the slavian dna is I2a2 or R?
    Yes.

    These are key questions that now there is no sure answers.

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    i m just thinking when that invasion done?
    when myceane according GreeK Academia was 2100 to 1700 BC
    and in central Greece they knew bronze before 1600 via cyprus
    and in minor Asia cycladetic -ionian via hetit
    so the language was given by hetit G? or by mycenean R?

    and the doric invasion also according greeks never done but it was the return of temenis from makedonia Greece, at about 800 BC
    when the macedonian invade greece???
    cause by What i know the makedonians were exiled from peloponese as temenus sons and they return as doric from city doris
    Is it possible that PIE were learn by hetit from minor asia with a small >10% G

    Now Celt tribes according Romans like scordici and serdi were in thracian land, down Donau, could that be evidence thracians were Celt-speaking?
    Last edited by iapetoc; 13-01-11 at 01:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    maciamo

    my approach has to do with the modern thoughts of ancient thracian being slavonic speaking people from their beginning, or the slavian DNA is the I2 than R2?
    In the map of I2 and R2 we see areas that speak slavonic today and are dominant by that 2 Haplogroups,
    I M NOT SAYING WHO GAVE THEM LANGUAGE INDO-EUROPEAN,
    In the Thracian land we see Both I2 and E-V13, E-V13 is linked and most Greeks and Dardanian, now the change that according ancient Greeks the dardanians were semi illyrians semi thracians, and dacians were Geto thracians the most possble that ancient thracians were mostly celto-speaking and not Greco-speaking,
    I m not telling that thracians were Pure I2a2, or thracians found the indo-european,
    but probably the thracian nation was More % I and less E (E in greece is connected with achaic and dorian)
    Cause migration to minor asia is more with I % than E %
    Besides the small R2 especially in east balkans,
    The lingua similarity of dacians and perhaps more celto-thracians may IS AN ANSWER THAT R1a IS THE SLAVIC speakers,
    and not that Thracians were the first Slavo-speakers

    in Greek Thracia we found even persian words, from persian occupation or infuence,
    SINCE HERODOTUS DIDN'T HAVE GENETICKS, probably the ancient thracians were celto-speakers

    R1b1 from the Near-East, R1b1b from Anatolia, and the European R1b1b2, including the Proto-Celtic S116/P312

    The hypothesis
    'Another hypothesis is that the migration of the Illyrians from north-east Europe to the Balkans displaced previous Indo-European tribes, namely the Dorians to Greece,' Is against Greek history
    since dorians were after 800 BC and Homer spoke indoeuropean before 1200 at troy,
    besides the first book in archaic Greek is about 850 BC and if we mention orpheus we go before 1400 BC,
    So the balkans Spoke Indo-European almost at 1400 BC
    so probably they came via Hetite influence in Ionic and Aeolic minor Asia, or by someone else
    possible cycladetic or achaiic myceneans, who we know knew very well bronze, and invade and colonize even to cyprus which in achaic greek means copper (κουπρος-kupros)
    besides accord the greek academia the doric invasion never done, but it was the return of the temenids from makedonia and it was a libua from Greek thebes that invade Illyria,
    well there is also a difrence in what greek named illyria and what romans named illyricum,
    cause greek named illyria from epirus to ragusa, and the more north Adra sea, and romans named illyria the east coast of adrias sea even dalmatia istria etc
    iapetoc
    Your opinion corresponds to what is for me crystallized.

    I think, Slavic people are R1a carriers.

    And Slavic languages are originally languages of R1a speakers.

    Serbs, generally I carriers, are no Slavs, and Serbs once spoke another language.

    Maybe Vinca culture could help in researching the original I language, however the condition for that is Vincians were I carriers.

    The key of understanding Balkan (and European) history is to find original I language.


    For Albanians, it is obvious that the Greek Illyria and Roman Illyricum should be considered separately.

    Roman Illiricum is the only official term that does not mean that the whole territory was ethnic Illyrian and that all tribes of the Illyricum were Afro Illyrian origin.

    Official Albanian history and official web sites placed Illyrian tribes deep into the Pannonian plain and Istria, however, Illiryans, the holders of haplogroup E, when arriving from Africa to the Balkans, could not go that far to the north.

    And personally for me Ragusa seems too north, I would say that the boundary line was around the middle of today's Montenegro, if you have a websites, sources and maps would be nice to post and we will comment.

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    ok middle crnagora but if Thracians Were Slavic and came from 1500 BC then how East roman empire realizes slavs around 500 AD its almost 2000 years


    If WiKI IS CORRECT THEN PROBABLY i have combined that trhasian was not a IndoEuropean-slavonick lingua,
    I repeat only If wiki is corect its morning i posted tomorow

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Although Aimos peninsula is the Mixed, specially to south (Byzantnine-ottoman empire, and ancient Greek and roman douloi (worker-services, not sclaves), we see 3 major and one minor Y haplogroups,
    the 3 major are E (E-V13, E-M123) J2, I2a2, and the minor is G,
    The ancient Thracians was the 2nd Biggest Numerous nation after indians according Herodotus, the map approach gives almost same quantity for all in ancient Thrace but the biiger to inner Europe is I2a2,

    if J2 has to do with Greece then what has to do with ancient thracians,
    then the around of ancient thracian area has to do with colonization and makedonian expand to east,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieres
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thracian_Greeks

    then the proper genes PIE are the rulers of E or I2,

    1rst) Hypothesis

    If R connect E that has to do with an arc from egypt then they must have with Gold and customs, so they build pyramids, (greek laconia and bosna and elsewerein balkans,) and cover dead kings face with gold,
    Greek E area peloponese, golden mask
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlm6A7-Xqhc
    Thracian gold mask found in bulgaria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zlatnamaska.jpg

    the possibilty that albanians rulled by thracians from geto-dacia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...race_and_Dacia
    the tribe albocense
    and the city of alba julia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Julia

    links E with ancient thracians

    But numerically does not fit,
    also does not give passage to miner asia

    2nd) the Thracians were rulers of I2

    Numerically fits, and makes herodotus state that Dacians are the most taugh among Thracians, cause dacia has more I than E,
    a) Explains the passage to minor asia with the big I ratio near Phrygia
    causes from makedons we know that the Bruges (mak dialect) b->pf Phruges->Phrygians (Koine),
    b)Explains the big I in east makedonia, and low E and Big E in west and small I in West cause Pieri were thracians and the shample from Serres (30% I2) are from were Pieri and Maedi lived,
    c) Explains the maedi migration to minor asia (maedi bithynia)
    d) Expalins the bithyni-Thyni migration to minor (East Bithynia),

    AND THAT I2a2, is a trully european haplogroup that went East and did not come from the west,
    maybe explains that a celt R1b ruled over I2a
    The big ratio % of I2a2 around bosnia and Serbia where the tribaldi (maybe proto-serbs) ancient Thracian tribe
    and the Big I2a2 in Dacia and around
    makes me believe THAT ANCIENT THRACIANS WERE CELTS ruled I2a2

    1 simple linguistica example
    greek-thracian area Serres mari means good woman
    greek-cretan dia =day
    athenean koine δειλι dili = end of day
    Celt-English merry = happy (merry christmas)
    Celt-English Day
    AlbanoDacian have a nice day ->mire Dita
    the mire is probably good
    and dita is the day,
    if a dacian or an ex-Yugoslavian (hrvatska-bosna-srpski-slovensko)
    or a bulgarian can find more lingua its ok

    The possibility That Thracians WERE CELTS rulling I is more strong than the 1 approach
    The linguistic probably has to do with the persian occupation
    the greek influence,
    The Roman occupation,
    The slavonization
    and the scythian and sarmates influence (probably slavonization) around Romania.

    The possibility that ancient thracian speak Slavic or proto slavic language is an interesting idea, but i m not a linguist, the possibilty that they return east ....

    besides balkan is ..... and the more the data the more map change colours,

    for example the jews colonie in salonique,
    almost 0% of jews-semetic results although they were and are a big comnunity in thessaly makedonia and thessaloniki 150 000, 50-50 christians- jews.



    Its more possible that Herodotus speaking of thracians mention Celts, and celtospeakers, cause slavonick people if were scythians-sarmatians etc were almost unknown or liitle known at that time
    besides from north italy to makedonia to ucraine, and also in minor asia, hmmm it is big
    Not all I2a2 is 'eastern'. The L161 positive, I2a2b-Isles was most likely founded on the north German plain. Its oldest clades have been dated to the Neolithic, and it has a small presence on the north European plain [Germany having most continental members] and in Britain and Ireland. It was brought to the islands by different waves of invaders from pre-Celts to Celts and to later Anglo-Saxons. I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe.

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    Thracian origin

    A specific DNA mutation which emerged about 2,000 years ago on a rare haplotype is characteristic of the Pomaks. Its frequency increased as a consequence of high genetic drift within this population. This indicates that the Pomaks are an isolated population with limited contacts with their neighbours. The DNA tree line of Pomaks suggests the hypothesis that Pomaks are descendants of ancient Thracian tribes


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks

    well I think that this evidence can help us found which were the Thracians

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    In my opinion, from what little of Thracian vocabulary is known, I would rather say that Thracian is rather a "northern" IE language (ie, akin to Germanic, Baltic and Slavic) and not a "western" IE language (ie, Celtic, Italic, Greek, etc.). However, just like with Germanic (which has a lot of Celtic borrowings and influence and is actually a Centum-IE language as a result), Thracian effective lay at the faultline of the language supergroupings and had characteristics of both. But, in any case, Thracian was by no means a Celtic language, nor was it a Salvic language for that matter.

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    Some good points were brought up on this one. Linguists believe that the sole surviving remnant of the Thraco-Cimmerian subgroup is Armenian.

    The group that came to be known as Armenians developed out of the southward migration of groups that fled from the Scythian assault on those that resided between them (Scyths) and the Celts of the Danube. Those that settled in Anatolia were absorbed by others over time. The Armenians were to maintain their identity until today. Through the last 2,500+ years they and their language have become influenced to a great extent by Iranians and their tongues as a result of Median, Persian, and Parthian domination, but the language base itself survives.
    In looking for glimpses into what sort of IE subgroup the Thracians may have been, I would hold that the closest modern example would be Armenian.

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    in fact taranis we know that a % of thracian was simmilar to Greek before koine simmilar attic and slavic and persian

    as example I give the same in another post Bull
    Bulgarian Bol
    GR makedonian Bolinthros
    Attic Bolos
    serbian Bik, Bik is baltic propably from 5th century
    cause serbs and bulgarians and croats bosnans belong to the same group south slavic
    probably 5th century invaders did not reach Aegean Rodope area and these people were there isolated
    although as Elias2 said in another post they could learn slavic at 700 by christianization
    pomacs have a middle slavic idiom and dialect,
    although they accepted many other languages
    their primary is a kind of slavic bulgarian
    in greece they are 40-60 % blond with blue eyes
    and many of their customs reminds ancient assyria China
    the dress of the bride is simillar to godess Eorda Arda Hera
    if a search of DNA exists the the predominant YDNA can help us find the I2 people
    if they are R1a then R1a is connected with slavic language
    but if they are I2 is the oposite

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp8iu...watch_response

    watch 0:10
    watch 1:14

    the flower for bride around head was also in greeks,
    attested to godess Hera (eorda arda)
    But not the paint face, which I think is Asian
    the woman at minute 0:10 has something that reminds me persia

    about armenian language I don't think so
    cimerians are mainly connected with moschi west of pontic Greeks and castamone-u area
    but cimerians exist in Epirus
    as chimmerians for Greeks cristians
    and chammerians for muslim albans

    the blue eyes we know that was typical persian
    But also could be connected with Cumans Kuman
    the blond hair are 3 in balkans
    The e-V13 blond like dark honey wich is simmilar with Riffian berbers
    and the yellow blond of that style
    and the red-blond or russo rugo rosso west and north Europe

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    iapetoc, please, could you write more clean/readable in the future? It's very difficult to read that.

    In general: without a doubt, R1a vastly predates the origin of the Slavic languages and is much further spread than the Slavic languages (for example Scandinavia, the Baltic countries and northern India all have sizable quantities of R1a). However, the connection can be made between R1a and the Indo-European languages (though R1a alone wasn't connected with the spread of the Indo-European languages).

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    ok the problem is mentioned also in another posts

    what YDNA is dominant in slavic language

    mostly say R1a which is also Viking and Germanic
    But south slavic have a language that many balkan Linguist consider that it is thracian,
    Means that slavic language comes from ancient Thracians and not from 500AD invasions,
    so these people I mentioned are considered ancient in Area more than 2000 years
    (about 20 villages)
    A Ydna could help us solve the connection
    if they have I2 dominant or R1a or something else cause Turks say they are Real Turks that came from west china, although gennetic proves other

    By Finding their Dna we can Find if I2a is celtic or slavic
    cause these people consider not change language by 500 AD invasion
    Am I understood?
    If I am not plz send me mssge to what I am not clear
    Last edited by iapetoc; 11-03-11 at 02:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    ok the problem is mentioned also in another posts

    what YDNA is dominant in slavic language

    mostly say R1a which is also Viking and Germanic
    But south slavic have a language that many balkan Linguist consider that it is thracian,
    Means that slavic language comes from ancient Thracians and not from 500AD invasions,

    so these people I mentioned are considered ancient in Area more than 2000 years
    (about 20 villages)
    A Ydna could help us solve the connection
    if they have I2 dominant or R1a or something else cause Turks say they are Real Turks that came from west china, although gennetic proves other

    By Finding their Dna we can Find if I2a is celtic or slavic
    cause these people consider not change language by %00 AD invasion
    Am I understood?
    If I am not plz send me mssge to what I am not clear
    That is nonsense. First off, as stated, just because people have the same Y-Haplogroup doesn't mean they spoke the same language. Secondly, onomastic evidence from antiquity clearly shows that the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians - though all Indo-European speaking peoples, didn't speak Slavic languages and no Slavic language was spoken on the Balkans until the Migrations Period.

    In any case I would not link specific languages and haplogroups 1:1, because that is rather problematic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Secondly, onomastic evidence from antiquity clearly shows that the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians - though all Indo-European speaking peoples, didn't speak Slavic languages and no Slavic language was spoken on the Balkans until the Migrations Period.
    actually, there is too little words preserved to claim anything about any of those languages...currently assumption is that Illyrian was kentum IE, and that Thracian and Dacian were satem IE languages...

    today in Europe satem IE languages are Baltic, Slavic, and Albanian languages...
    so, linguistically, link between Balto-Slavic and Dacian and Thracian can be expected...

    claim that no Slavic languages were spoken on Balkan till migrations period has not more basis than claim that Slavic languages were spoken on Balkan before migration period... there simply is no data....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, there is too little words preserved to claim anything about any of those languages...currently assumption is that Illyrian was kentum IE, and that Thracian and Dacian were satem IE languages...

    today in Europe satem IE languages are Baltic, Slavic, and Albanian languages...
    so, linguistically, link between Balto-Slavic and Dacian and Thracian can be expected...

    claim that no Slavic languages were spoken on Balkan till migrations period has not more basis than claim that Slavic languages were spoken on Balkan before migration period... there simply is no data....

    besides, if you study PIE words...it is more or less Slavic language...other IE languages are much much further from PIE for most words... that is probably why it is often spoken of R1a as PIE people...
    Actually, the claim that no Slavic languages were spoken on the Balkans until the migrations period is verymuch reasonable because what little Dacian or Thracian words are non-conformous with Slavic sound laws. I mean, sure, Dacian and Thracian were without doubt related with Baltic/Slavic (and probably moreso than with any other branch of IE), but that doesn't make them automatically Slavic. It's kind of the same as people claiming that *English* was spoken in Britain before the Anglo-Saxon invasions, or that there even was no such thing as the Anglo-Saxon invasions.

    Regarding PIE words, they're not "more or less Slavic". Proto-Slavic (or Proto-Balto-Slavic) made A lot of innovations and changes from PIE, just like the other branches of IE did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, the claim that no Slavic languages were spoken on the Balkans until the migrations period is verymuch reasonable because what little Dacian or Thracian words are non-conformous with Slavic sound laws. I mean, sure, Dacian and Thracian were without doubt related with Baltic/Slavic (and probably moreso than with any other branch of IE), but that doesn't make them automatically Slavic. It's kind of the same as people claiming that *English* was spoken in Britain before the Anglo-Saxon invasions, or that there even was no such thing as the Anglo-Saxon invasions.
    I don't claim Thracian and Dacian languages were Balto-Slavic... I claim they were more related to Balto-Slavic than to e.g. Germanic.... from what I read few preserved Thracian words seems to show cognates in Baltic languages

    Regarding PIE words, they're not "more or less Slavic". Proto-Slavic (or Proto-Balto-Slavic) made A lot of innovations and changes from PIE, just like the other branches of IE did.
    yes, you are right there...
    I jumped to conclusion there after looking few words ... like numbers and body parts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is nonsense. First off, as stated, just because people have the same Y-Haplogroup doesn't mean they spoke the same language. Secondly, onomastic evidence from antiquity clearly shows that the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians - though all Indo-European speaking peoples, didn't speak Slavic languages and no Slavic language was spoken on the Balkans until the Migrations Period.

    In any case I would not link specific languages and haplogroups 1:1, because that is rather problematic.

    as in Fuct Thracian words in Greek language have same root with many thracian
    thracian was satem and connect Greek with ancient persian and slavic
    probably if PIE was minor asian I people spoke an aryan language simmilar pelasgic (far ancient Greek-Latin, centum) and Persian that could be thracian connected with cimmerians in minor asia
    the invasion of 500 AD could be a southern movement of I people or
    if I peole were Gaete goths I people language could be germanic
    there is a possibility that slavic language and alphabet made by cyrrill and method was also used to cristianization of Russians,
    that means that east -northern people were used to slavic language and cyrill alphabet just spread thracian

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    as in Fuct Thracian words in Greek language have same root with many thracian
    thracian was satem and connect Greek with ancient persian and slavic
    probably if PIE was minor asian I people spoke an aryan language simmilar pelasgic (far ancient Greek-Latin, centum) and Persian that could be thracian connected with cimmerians in minor asia
    the invasion of 500 AD could be a southern movement of I people or
    if I peole were Gaete goths I people language could be germanic
    there is a possibility that slavic language and alphabet made by cyrrill and method was also used to cristianization of Russians,
    that means that east -northern people were used to slavic language and cyrill alphabet just spread thracian
    Sorry. No. What speaks severely against this is that the Slavic language family is closer related with the Baltic languages than with Thracian. Plus, although scarcely attested, the Balts are attested by the sources in Antiquity. Specifically, a West Baltic tribe (that is, akin to the Old Prussians), the Galindians, are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD. In other words, the Baltic-Slavic split was complete by then, and without doubt, the Baltoslavic-Thracian split was even earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry. No. What speaks severely against this is that the Slavic language family is closer related with the Baltic languages than with Thracian. Plus, although scarcely attested, the Balts are attested by the sources in Antiquity. Specifically, a West Baltic tribe (that is, akin to the Old Prussians), the Galindians, are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD. In other words, the Baltic-Slavic split was complete by then, and without doubt, the Baltoslavic-Thracian split was even earlier.
    oh yeah
    I gave you the bull before
    whatch more
    remember r=l p=b=f=v t=d=th k=g=ch s=t
    e->o e->i a->u u->o u->a and oposite

    Pelasgic Bellekon white
    Thracian- slavic Bello
    Greek ellekon-> lefkon
    pelasgic Pelloros Big Huge
    Thracian Velliko
    Greek pellorios
    pelasgic piosom drink
    thracian piam
    Greek pino -posome
    pelasgic gerom up raise
    thracian gore
    greek egiro
    pelasgic perako i made i do
    thracian pravyia pravgia
    Greek prasso pratto but the result prak-sis
    pelasgic ???
    thracian ???
    slavic glagoliti
    Greek glotta ->glotta glossa glossario ->ss->g r->l glogali
    aeolin glossa is greka means ss-> k=g glossary -? glogari-ti
    thracian ???
    as you see connection of Greek with thracian and slavic is bigger
    than german or baltic,
    it is possible that a thracian is protoslavonic since Pomaks never change languge for 2000 years

    can you explain that?
    seems thracian language is close to pellasgic aryan
    probably thracian is the mother of slavic and not baltic as western say
    remamber thracian were the 2nd biggest nation in the world, in area that today is slavic language and if thracian are proto slavic I2 people are slavic and R1a are invaders of europe,
    Remember letter R is a phoneental in centum language,
    But it is unknown to germans and R1a people
    they wwwwww instead of Rrrrrrrrrr
    how they could say Thrace thwace?
    no way


    about galindians do you know their language?
    when thay bacame cristians
    Baltic belongs in R1a clear language,
    but watch that,
    In the 9th and 10th centuries, Christianity made great inroads into Eastern Europe, including Kievan Rus'. This work was made possible by the work of the Byzantine-Era Bulgarian saints Cyril and Methodius. When Rastislav, the king of Moravia, asked Byzantium for teachers who could minister to the Moravians in their own language, Byzantine emperor Michael III chose these two brothers. Cyril and Methodius translated the Bible and many of the prayer books. As the translations prepared by them were copied by speakers of other dialects, the hybrid literary language Old Church Slavonic was created. Originally sent to convert the Slavs of Great Moravia, Cyril and Methodius were forced to compete with Frankish missionaries from the Roman diocese. Their disciples were driven out of Great Moravia in AD 886.[69]
    Some of the disciples, namely Saint Clement of Ohrid and Saint Naum who were of Bulgarian descent, were of great importance to the Orthodox Faith in Bulgaria, as St. Clement was officially the first Bulgarian Bishop. In a short time, the disciples of Cyril and Methodius managed to prepare and instruct the future Bulgarian clergy into the biblical texts and in AD 893, proclaimed the first organized Church on the Balkan Peninsula. The success of the conversion of the Bulgarians facilitated the conversion of East Slavic peoples, most notably the Rus', predecessors of Belarusians, Russians, and Ukrainians.[70]
    The work of the Thessaloniki brothers Cyril and Methodius and their disciples had a major impact to Serbs as well.[71] However, they accepted Christianity collectively by families and by tribes (in the process between the 7th and the 9th century). In commemoration of their baptisms, each Serbian family or tribe began to celebrate an exclusively Serbian custom called Slava in a special way to honor the Saint on whose day they received the sacrament of Holy Baptism. It is the most solemn day of the year for all Serbs of the Orthodox faith and has played a role of vital importance in the history of the Serbian people. Slava is actually the celebration of the spiritual birthday of the Serbian people which the Church blessed and proclaimed it a Church institution.[72]
    The missionaries to the East and South Slavs had great success in part because they used the people's native language rather than Greek, the predominant language of the Byzantine Empire or Latin as the Roman priests did.[73] Today the Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Orthodox Churches followed by the Romanian Orthodox Church.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

    Η αρχική τους προσέγγιση με τους Καυκάσιους Χαζάρους δεν απέδωσε αποτελέσματα οπότε και στράφηκαν στους Μοραβούς. Στη Μοραβία αρχικά αντιμετωπίστηκαν ευμενώς από τον πρίγκιπα Ροσιστλάβο και εκπόνησαν ένα νέο αλφάβητο βασισμένο στο ελληνικό, το Γλαγολιτικό ή Κυριλλικό, προκειμένου να μεταφράσουν στα σλαβικά έργα της χριστιανικής γραμματείας. Η δράση τους ενόχλησε τους Γερμανούς ιεραποστόλους και οδήγησε σε δίωξη τους και καταφυγή τους στη Ρώμη αποζητώντας την προστασία του Πάπα. Ο Πάπας τους δικαίωσε αλλά ο Κύριλλος, ήδη καταβεβλημένος, πέθανε στη Ρώμη και το βάρος της συνέχισης της ιεραποστολής μετατέθηκε στο Μεθόδιο. Ο Μεθόδιος, αφού χειροτονήθηκε επίσκοπος, επέστρεψε στη Μοραβία και δημιούργησε γύρω του μία ομάδα ιεραποστόλων, η οποία, όμως, μετά το θάνατό του (885) και παρά τη θέση του Επισκόπου Ρώμης υπέρ του εκδιώχθηκε από τη χώρα.
    Συνεχιστής του έργου τους αναδείχτηκε ο Κλήμης Αχρίδος, του οποίου η δράση έφερε αποτέλεσμα στους Βουλγάρους με τη βάπτιση του ηγεμόνα τους Τσάρου Βόρις στα 869. Το 891 βαπτίζεται και ο ηγεμόνας των Σέρβων πρίγκιπας Μούτιμιρ, οπότε ταυτόχρονα το σερβικό κράτος μετατρέπεται σε χριστιανικό. Στη Ρωσία (τότε Κράτος των Ρως) ο Χριστιανισμός υιοθετήθηκε αρχικά από τη βασίλισσα Όλγα το 955, η πλέον όμως καθοριστική καμπή για τη χώρα ήταν η απόφαση του εγγονού της Όλγας, Μεγάλου Πρίγκιπα Βλαδίμηρου του Κιέβου, για θεσμοθέτηση της χριστιανικής ομολογίας ως επίσημης θρησκείας του κράτους το 988, επηρεασμένος από την άποψη μεγαλείου, που του μετέφεραν οι απεσταλμένοι του από την Κωνσταντινούπολη.
    Η βουλγαρική Εκκλησία αναγνωρίστηκε ως Πατριαρχείο από την Κωνσταντινούπολη το 945, η σερβική το 1346 και η ρωσική το 1589.




    http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%...B2.CF.89.CE.BD



    If you read Greek you see that the Germans kicked away Cyrrill cause he spead new lalphabet instead of latin alphabet and spoke these people to their language,instead of Baltic and German
    they teach them in their own people's language and not in the language of Rulers Germans or baltic
    they had success cause they spoke in people language, and do not try to learn them german or latin first
    german and baltic was imported to north slavs
    probably slav people wre baltic but slavic language was more ancient, thracian



    remember that slavic people have bibble in their language 700 years before germans


    the same alphabet and language was used to russians, in Kiev area not moscow

    kiev has many I ydan people,


    semms that I2 people spoke with thracian proto-slavic


    Κυρίλλου και Μεθοδίου.

    konstantinos kai michail their names
    Cyrill and method

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet


    whatch min 0:18 area of thracian lands, it is today I2 Ydna people
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZIn...eature=related
    Last edited by iapetoc; 10-03-11 at 19:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Pelasgic Bellekon white
    Thracian- slavic Bello
    Greek ellekon-> lefkon
    exactly

    pelasgic Pelloros Big Huge
    Thracian Velliko
    Greek pellorios
    Slavic Veliko

    pelasgic piosom drink
    thracian piam
    Greek pino -posome
    Slavic "pio sam" = I was drinking
    "pijem" = I am drinking
    "pijan" = drunk

    pelasgic gerom up raise
    thracian gore
    greek egiro
    Slavic gore = up


    pelasgic perako i made i do
    thracian pravyia pravgia
    Greek prasso pratto but the result prak-sis
    Slavic
    "praviti" - to make
    "pravio sam" - I was making
    "pravim" - I am making

    pelasgic ???
    thracian ???
    slavic glagoliti
    Greek glotta ->glotta glossa glossario ->ss->g r->l glogali
    aeolin glossa is greka means ss-> k=g glossary -? glogari-ti
    thracian ???
    as you see connection of Greek with thracian and slavic is bigger
    than german or baltic,
    exactly, shared old arhaic words indicate living in close proximity in ancient times...

    can you explain that?
    seems thracian language is close to pellasgic aryan
    probably thracian is the mother of slavic and not baltic as western say
    remamber thracian were the 2nd biggest nation in the world, in area that today is slavic language and if thracian are proto slavic I2 people are slavic and R1a are invaders of europe,
    exactly, that is what I claim all the time...
    proto-Slavs were I2

    [B]semms that I2 people spoke with thracian proto-slavic
    exactly, Garick might not agree but I agree that I2 spoke proto-Slavic...

    whatch min 0:18 area of thracian lands, it is today I2 Ydna people
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZIn...eature=related
    excellent point, spread of I2 exactly matches area of influence of Thracians and related people...
    but I would not exclude R1a from Thracian story...

    I would add here historic document Russian primary chronicle from 1113 that states following

    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula
    , and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. .....
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    * note that in year 1113 Bulgaria is along Danube all the way to Vojvodina (north Serbia), and Vojvodina is in Hungary....
    thus, this reference of living along Danube maps to Thracians + Scordisci + Pannonians

    btw. Noricans (who are identical to Slavs according to chronicle) are Pannonians originally....

    The original population appears to have consisted of Pannonians (a people kin to the Illyrians), who, after the great migration of the Gauls, became subordinate to various Celto-Ligurians tribes, chief amongst them being the Taurisci, who were probably identical with the Norici of Roman sources, so called after their capital Noreia, whose location is, as yet, unknown.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

    The Taurisci were a people who dwelt in the north of Carniola before the coming of the Romans (c. 200 BC)[1] According to Pliny the Elder, they are the same people known as the Norici.[2][3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

    Taurisci is same tribal name as Thrace..
    it is related to mount Taurus in Asia minor...


    I do however think that Thracians and Taurisci were dominantly R1a (though mixed with I2a2)
    while Scordisci, Pannonians and Veneti were dominantly I2a2 (with some R1a)

    Note that Vindelici (who match location and name of Serbs prior to 7th century move to Balkan) are Veneti derived people
    However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

    and that Jordanes speaks of early Slavs as of Veneti race
    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

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    *facepalm*

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post

    The possibility That Thracians WERE CELTS rulling I is more strong than the 1 approach
    The linguistic probably has to do with the persian occupation
    the greek influence,
    The Roman occupation,
    The slavonization
    and the scythian and sarmates influence (probably slavonization) around Romania.

    The possibility that ancient thracian speak Slavic or proto slavic language is an interesting idea, but i m not a linguist, the possibilty that they return east ....

    besides balkan is ..... and the more the data the more map change colours,

    for example the jews colonie in salonique,
    almost 0% of jews-semetic results although they were and are a big comnunity in thessaly makedonia and thessaloniki 150 000, 50-50 christians- jews.



    Its more possible that Herodotus speaking of thracians mention Celts, and celtospeakers, cause slavonick people if were scythians-sarmatians etc were almost unknown or liitle known at that time
    besides from north italy to makedonia to ucraine, and also in minor asia, hmmm it is big
    Didn't the Thracians speak a language related to Dacian and Illyrian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    *facepalm*
    although my post looks contradictory to conventional simple minds who try to map one tribe from past to one nation of today, one language of today to one language of past, and one haplogroup to one tribe of past.....it is not....

    Russian primary chronicle claims that spread along the Danube and also Noricans were Slavs... Jordanes says Slavs were from race of Veneti....Thracians use some clearly Slavic words that do not have even remote connection to other Europe languages... so it is possible that most of east Europe did also before speak languages alike today... why would that be so surprising.....


    but that is not the point.... point is in origin of people which can be quite different from what person with mind fragmented in models based on cultures of today could imagine..... cultures and languages change easily... there was so many German speakers in USA that German was close to become key official language of USA,but is now hardly spoken in USA... latin derived languages spread over big chunk of world from little village in Italy...Celtic languages disappeared from big areas of contnental Europe...all that in last 1500-2000 years...


    point is that most of people of east Europe origin from people of east Europe.... and that people who are now Slavic origin from Thracians, Dacians, Scordisci, Veneti, Pannonians, Scythians, Sarmatians... ...which doesnot mean they were all speaking Slavic or Slavic related languages.... but Thracians for instance probably were speaking proto-Slavic related language...

    whatever all those tribes were speaking, they were mostly R1a and I2 mix..

    and they extended along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia and Bavaria....
    very likely this was I2a2 mostly south of Danube and R1a north of it....but also mixed to some extent... and I2a2 further from south of Danube along Black sea shores....

    btw. keep in mind that in ancient Greece Thracians were considered most numerous people in the world... while later references talk of populous race of Veneti scattered among many tribes and nothing of Thracians...
    why is it hard to believe that these were overlaping sets...

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    I mentioned before, the Norici were Celts, there is zero evidence pointing in any other direction. There's, although few, Noric inscriptions which readily show that it was a Celtic language - and this is in addition to plenty of Onomastic evidence.

    I2a2 is clearly of Paleolithic origin and certainly predates the emergence of the Slavic peoples by many millennia (according to Eupedia's genetics page, I2a2 appeared 6000 years ago).

    The idea that the Slavic people originated on the Balkans somehow is ludicrous and without basis. As mentioned, the Slavic languages are closer to Baltic than they are to Thracian.

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