Macedonians

Although I see you continue splitting
I will still try to Unite

Tesesh was Not a Tribe
it was a cleric-religion cast
find out Tiresias and later Augur
Remember ter-o in greeks means observe.


now find out caduceus symbol

find a poem of orpheus for gree (3 old woman-fates)

orpheus was Pieri thracian
Orpheus was using Lyre as Musical organ as also today Thracians Cretans Pontic Greeks Laz people and Atheneans


now about Thracians and Vrygians
Makedonians found them and mention them around their later capital meaning central Makedonia

main Vrygian city was
Edessa edu and Vedu is the water in Vrygian and issa is the wall- the tower
also Larissa means La =stone ris= nose edge, issa = wall today in modern Greek is acropolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece

the Thracians you mention, where the last with Satem cause of the Skudra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

by realizing the Skudra and that Paioni were under Troya occupation and that bithyni also went to minor asia
as also in Homer Greeks speak similar with Troyans and many Thracians
but could not understand other Thracian,
as also later with odrysse thracian at Xenophons time translation needed
the fact that Before koine Greeks A colonization was mainly in Areas of Luwan speaking
which were near troyans and allies, and at coastal of Thrace Illyria
and south of Etruscans Magna Grecia,
and in B colonization elsewhere, and later they make koine language

the Iphigeneia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia
the lelantin wars for ischia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia


Watch that

The endings -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village") are from the Thracian language, as are numerous other lexical elements in this list. Strabo translated -bria as polis, but it might not be accurate[16]. Thracian language -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE *gh-. Cognates include Ancient Greek teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan daēza ("wall").

now find Hettit language
Troy = wIllassa
greek cities
Edessa
Tyrinssa
Larissa
Dorissa
Chalkissa
Antissa
SSamos
SSami
SSamothrace
Chandassa (old cretan name for Heracleion)
Lassate today Lasithe

linear B ko-no-sso ->knossos (minoan)
ne-na = float Nassa -Naxa->Naxos (island) Fortification for ships


Later the Greeks turn -issa to ida or itha
Lassate ->Lasithe
Tyrinssa ->Tyrintha
Dorissa->Dorida

Para or Phara means light tower a tower that holds fire
Paros
Pharia in Dalmatia
later the par became pur (fire) and the building Purossa
Purossa ->burssa turkey Gr Prousa
Vrussa outside Athens in gr Alphabet Bryssa
here I live area Bruaza
Pyr+thesis +essa -Pryntessa ->brindesi (italy) (brindis-io)
kallos+Pyr = Calabria

the Pyrossa became ->Pyroga ->Pyrgoa-Pyrgos
Pyrgos is a tower that holds fire and it is fortificated
instead of Pharos which is not fortified
Gr Pyrgos BG Burgas city name

as you realize i don't know where the Venneti came from
but Linguistic is that thracian and tyrrshenian came by Middle East to balcans
the land movement where more persian and became north balcans Thracian
the south came by sea closer to levantine and became Thyrrenian and later Greek (greek is a synonym of Cretan)
and the Troyan later became Etruscan
the possibility that Hettit were the west Branch of first language or split by the first language


about paioni and agrinio
you manage to connect
Agriannes with Agrinio
but Agrios means savage scary and sometimes violent
also argos and agros is the field
argos = fiels in plain mainly
and agros = fields that plow
Agrinio means farmers cultivators of land
Agriannes believe also the same

so my thought about thracians and i2a has a point
meaning that north satem Thracians I2a carriers were close to persian thracian
and south and coastal J2 was more Levant phoenician -tyrrshenian
hmm
or it seems that Hettit was the 1rst Thracian branch of IE speaking and split
to perso thracian north
greco thracian west
and phoenician south

the fact is that Greeks are more vowel even north Greece than south Slavic or north Thracians
vowel in Greek is phoneen ;)
although much less vowel than others

example
Proto-Indo-European *(d)ḱm̥tóm, which became Avestan satəm (hence the name of the group), Persian sad, Sanskrit śatam, Latvian simts, Lithuanian šimtas, Old Church Slavonic sъto. Another example is the Slavic prefix (n)- ("with"), which appears in Latin, a centum language, as co(n)-; conjoin is cognate with Russian soyuz("union").
Greek sun ΣΥΝ modern as sin older as sun the u very short u as in Uranus
 
Last edited:
The Pelasgian Problem

The Problem of Ancient Minor Languages.

"...The most significant among Hellenes are Athenians and Lacaedemonians. The first come from Ionic tribe, the second - from Doric tribe. And, Ionians are of Pelasgian origin, and Dorians - of Hellenic." (I, 56.)
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands. Greek authors placed their native land in Fessalia, in Northern and Middle Greece, and on the majority of islands in the Aegean Sea.

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them.
But were they Indo-Europeans?
It is well known that the first wave of Indo-European migrants who came to settle to Crete, the Aegean Islands and to Continental Greece from Asia Minor were Achaeans, the so-called "first wave of Greek migrants". It is they who created the Minoan on Crete and Mycenaean in Peloponnese civilizations. Then Doric tribes invaded Greece, but could easily understand the language of Achaeans, and nowadays Dorians and Achaeans are considered to have been just the two varieties of Greek population, with dialectal peculiarities in their common language.
But Pelasgian language was not understood by Achaeans. Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.) That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian.

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete. Herodot three centuries later names just two of their cities. The process of extinction went fast. Naturally, the only place they could survive for some time and avoid assimilation were small islands in the Aegean Sea. And only here we have one (maybe the only) evidence they really had their language.

lemnos_stela_01.jpg
Little inscriptions were found on the island named Lemnos which proves Pelasgians lived there in their isolated community in the 7th and 6th century B.C. Hesiod, Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European. The language is completely unknown, and some researches even believe (following ancient legends) that Lemnos Island's inscriptions are close to Etruscan and Rhaetic language. That is how a theory was supported about the ties of Pelasgians and Etruscans: "If we judge for nowadays Pelasgians, who live north from Tyrsenans..." (I, 58). That is how Herodot shows neighbourhood of Etruscans (Tyrsenans) and Pelasgians. Strabo in the 1st century A.D. follows this theory: "Modern Cere [in Etruria] is said to have been founded by Pelasgians who came from Fessalia." (V, II, 3). Euripid in his "Archelaios" says that Pelasgians were the first people to settle on Lemnos and Imbros Islands, then inhabited Greece, and partly went to Italy led by Tirsenos, the ancestor of Etruscans.

pelaszgians.png
And though Strabo and Hesiod believe Pelasgians used to be Hellenes, Etruscan language which has nothing in common with Greek proves they were not. But still there are too many contradictory sources of information. Greeks, who were sure that every nation had their Hellenic religion with just different names for gods, always called other peoples' divines Greek names: they called Egyptian Amon "Zeus", they called Celtic goddess Boann "Artemis" and so on, the same for every people. That is why Pelasgian gods, who could have their own names, were called "Zeus", "Apollo", "Hermes" by Greeks.
Certainly, Pelasgians who lived nearby Greeks, could borrow their gods, myths and beliefs, but that does not prove, for example, that the Temple in Dodona many authors talk about was devoted to Zeus and not to an autochtonic Pelasgian god. Pelasgian might have similar cults, gods for rain, ground, sun and moon. The only description of Pelasgian sculptures, that of Zeus, believed to have been delivered to Larisa from Asia Minor, is described by Pausanius as having three eyes (II, 24) - a feature not common among Greek gods. Pelasgian religion must have been different from Indo-European.

And nevertheless, no one can be sure. In the 70s this century a Bulgarian linguist Georgiyev published his works where he tried to prove that Pelasgian language was of Indo-European origin. According to him, it was a representative of Paleo-Balkan languages, of their Thraco-Illyrian branch. Georgiyev cites Ancient Greek historians, Hesihios's dictionary and composes the so-called "Pelasgian glossary" - words in Greek borrowed from Pelasgian. Here we are glad to offer the full list of that glossary.

aleifo - I smear
asamindos - a bath
astu - a town
atembo - I offend
afnos - wealth
balios - white
bretas - a statue
gaia, ga - a land, a region
deyo - I irrigate
dunamai - I can
eiko - I retreat
elaion - butter
derapne - a dwelling
ide - a forest
lahe - a pit
neos - a temple
pyndax - a bottom of a vase
pyrgos - a tower

Based on his analysis of Pelasgian glossary, Georgiyev also gives a table of phonetic changes from Common Indo-European to Pelasgian:
pelaszgians1.png

As we can see, most of the changes remind those for Thracian and Phrygian languages, from Balkan language community. Greeks considered Thracians and Phrygians to be barbarians; the same with Pelasgians. But if Thracian words easily prove the language was Indo-European, all inscriptions are translated and the origin is clear, we cannot say such things about Pelasgian.

Too many arguable things. Inscriptions from Lemnos similar to Etruscan; legends about Pelasgian relativeness with Tyrsenans; common opinion that Pelasgians lived in Aegean region before Greeks arrived - that all gives us a chance to suppose: Pelasgian was not Indo-European. Its speakers were - together with Iberians in Spain, Aquitans in Southern France, Rhaetians and Ligurians in Alps, Etruscans in Italy - the representatives of the autochtonic, pre-Indo-European population of Southern Europe, the Mediterranean race which spoke a language we cannot define now. It was not Indo-European or Semitic; maybe just Basques can nowadays tell us what it was like.

But still there are a lot of "maybe". Etruscan is not deciphered yet, Pelasgian written documents were lost in history. A century ago the humanity knew nothing about Hittite or Tocharian languages; new archaeologic, historical and linguistic research can always give us more material about the past of Indo-Europeans. That is why we should not state anything with surety; just analyze, guess and search.
 
so Dejavu
the Cyclades civilization which is 4000 BCalmost
in the middle of Aegean is the pelasgic
which I believe iis also the proto-Thyrrennian and proto-cretan

now could that language also be the thracian far ancient language?
i mean in the tribes we know as thracians,????
and then the thracians turn to Skudra
thyrrenian by the words you mention above could be centum language
could the thracian be a centum language
and change with the Skudra


dejavu thank you that was very helpfull
 
iapetoc, do you have your results of your haplogroups back?
I wonder if you guessed right? G2a3?

I just got mine few days ago. Freaking unexpected result lol.
 
Le Brok

G2a3b
want the dys lebrok?
i Have to go again to university labs




how yes no my question for you is that

was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?

I believe yes,
 
how yes no my question for you is that
was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?
I believe yes,

I do not know...
not enough data to claim linguistic connection...
but I suspect there is tribal name connection...
btw. from wikipedia about Tyrrshenian

"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis"). The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

for me this 'srdn' in Egyptian inscriptions for Sardis is identical as for Shardana

The earliest mention of the people called Srdn-w, more usually called Sherden or Shardana, occurs in the Amarna Letters correspondence of Rib-Hadda, of Byblos[2], to Pharaoh Akhenaten, at about 1350 BCE. At this time, they already appear as sea raiders and mercenaries, prepared to offer their services to local employers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardana
 
cuase as I already saw you before similarity of Thracians with Hettites and Greeks,
although it could be IE there is a posibility to be dialects each of other,

another evidence is the Phoenician Alphabet that use the Greeks,

the Troyans that reach Dardania as also the Skodra of Persians (Skudra)
i don't know I cant specify
either northern Balkans learn Thyrrenian by Troyans and were satem
either they became satem by persians
either both speak dialects but south - Greeks -Thyrrenian became centum cause of sea immigration, and inland by foot immigrations kept the persian satem thracians
in 70 translation of old testament (the 1rst ever) name that Iauan people settled in Θαρσεις Tharseis, Tarshish but also Theiras Θειρας Tiras was their ungle

watch very far ancient Greek cities Tyris - tiris tyras-tiras in ukraine also a city in levant Tiros and the island of Thera

that is why I connect ancient Thracian with Thyrrenian

Psalm 72:10
May the kings of(A) Tarshish and of(B) the coastlands
render him(C) tribute;

Ezekiel 38:13
Sheba and(B) Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all(C) its leaders[a]
Ezekiel 27:12


"Tarshish did(B) business with you because

Psalm 48:7

You destroyed them like ships of Tarshish
shattered by an east wind.
 

Garrick's quote:
"But now I want something else to say.

Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

...
Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.

Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.

But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.

There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.

...
And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic. "


This is very clearly thought out and written well. I like the idea of exploring options like this. The possibility of "I" peoples being the base group that later had a R1a Slav admixture makes much sense.
I will read it again later and post more thoughts on it then.
 
HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?

DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?

MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?



Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0%
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1%

Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)

Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.


GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!

FACT!
 
HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?

DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?

MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?



Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0%
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1%

Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)

Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.


GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!

FACT!

DejaVu
If you noticed I do not want to participate on this subject.

I'll just add, Regulus is right.

Precisely what distinguishes Slavo Macedonians from the Greeks and Albanians, is the presence I and the stronger component of R1a. (When you add R1a, according to Pericic et al you get I + R1a 49.3%).

And take into account number of Albanian minority in Macedonia FYROM (25% population), and that the E haplogroup is dominant among the Albanians. Also take into account that haplogroup J is the most frequent among the Greeks.

Only a few analytical think.

Without I haplogroup and a stronger presence of R1a, ask is whether Slavo Macedonians had any specificity.

And that's what several participants here trying to tell you, just a facts.

And it really has nothing to do with politics.
 
Dejavu

tell me me,
ancient thracian language
is near Thyrrenean-tyrrshenian
is near Hettit or Persian
is near to slavic?

watch is satem language

and about R1a Regulus watch that letter R is vowel in ancient Greek
and letter L was also a vowel in thessaly and makedonia but not in Greek thracian
means that r was also hr or rr or wr

but Greek Makedonians do not use the j as slavic do

Dienekes said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.
I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.

now if that R1a was ancient since you know gennetic, could that be German branch?
just wondering

and who denys that R1a enter in medieval times, meaning that a big % of today named slavic makedonians lived in area of Greek Makedonia,
besides remember that Dusan's capitol Skopje is almost next Greek makedonia,
and Dusan ruled enough years to some small devastations
also in ottoman empire etc

the problem is that church gave name to nations
that kings claim what ever, who could stop them
remember a latin king of Makedonia after Boniface de Monferat who bought the title of king by an expeled king just to go to crusades as a noble !!!!!!!!!!!!!

but lingua as it is writen by ancient and as it is in use by modern is different


Besides DejaVu if you want more politic I have many
but I don't want more,
 
Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go. (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time)

Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence. (Continue of breaking forum rules: (4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations).


Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.
(No DNA test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)


Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.
 
Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time).

Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence.

Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.
(No test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)


Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.


phhhh

Wrong again
I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area

I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
besides all who read make their thoughts

so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD
 
phhhh

Wrong again
I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area

I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
besides all who read make their thoughts

so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD

Only recognize Sub-Sahara Greece with Sub-Saharan Greeks.
 
in my opinion, ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a and south Slavs (people of Veneti race according to Jordanes) were dominantly I2a2...

but there was significant I2a2 in Balkan aslo prior to south Slavs arrival...
we can see that by spread in Asia minor, by significant spread in areas of Greece that were not settled by Slavs, by some spread along italian Adriatic coast while Slavs never settled there and Illyrians did....

so, if arrival of south Slavs was real and numerous, they were perhaps I2a2 dominant people who settled among dominantly I2a2 people... perhaps even part of same people arriving from one of tribal settlement to another, with differing tribal names....

marriage of R1a and I2a2 accross east Europe is hard to explain...
 
How yes no,

you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
in which tribe?
the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?

now if R1a was dominant, then Spartan sould be also R1a, west Crete should be also Dominant R1a even in minor asia where Dorians went should be also R1a
and as you heard in History Sicily in the East should have dominant R1a
if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see
 
How yes no,
you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
in which tribe?
the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?
now if R1a was dominant, then Spartan sould be also R1a, west Crete should be also Dominant R1a even in minor asia where Dorians went should be also R1a
and as you heard in History Sicily in the East should have dominant R1a
if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see

there is around 10% of R1a in Ragusa in southeast Sicily and also in Santa Ninfa in west Sicily...the rest of Sicily has around 5%...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html#figure-title

there is also hotspot of R1a in west central Crete and in highlands of east most Crete...(see Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in table bellow)

data.jpg


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html


Post-migrational distribution of the Dorians
Though most of the Doric invaders settled in the Peloponnese, they also settled on Rhodes and Sicily, in what is now southern Italy. In Asia Minor existed the Dorian Hexapolis (the six great Dorian cities): Halikarnassos (Halicarnassus) and Knidos (Cnidus) in Asia Minor, Kos, and Lindos, Kameiros, and Ialyssos on the island of Rhodes. These six cities would later become rivals with the Ionian cities of Asia Minor. The Dorians also invaded Crete. These origin traditions remained strong into classical times: Thucydides saw the Peloponnesian War in part as "Ionians fighting against Dorians" and reported the tradition that the Syracusans in Sicily were of Dorian descent.[38] Other such "Dorian" colonies, originally from Corinth, Megara, and the Dorian islands, dotted the southern coasts of Sicily from Syracuse to Selinus. (EB 1911).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

invaded Crete does not mean they left significant offspring...
key settlement is Peloponnese and that is where we should search for Dorians...

660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek

two sampled places in area of Peloponnese:
Patrai on north - not Dorian area, Achaean area of influence
Lerna/Franchthi - east part - Dorian area of influence..

thus, L/F should have much more Dorian element than Patras

Patrai - 11.1% R1b, 5,6% R1a, 44% DE, 11,1% I, 16,7% J2, 0% G2
L/F - 15.8% R1b, 1,8% R1a, 35%DE, 21,2% I, 14,2% (+1.8%) J2, 5.3% G2

now 14,2% J2 in L/F is way too small if Dorians were J2... and it is even less than in non-Dorian Patrai... thus, Dorians were for sure not J2 dominant people or R1a dominant people....they could have been haplogroup I (not known how much of it is I2a2 and how much other branches)

there is also hotspot of haplogroup I in west central part of Crete (Rethymnon)...


btw. on map of Greek dialects (note that Macedonian is not any of them) R1a hotspot matching ancient Macedonian's state would be mostly in Ionic area of Chalcidice...

R1A_map.jpg

so, I guess Dorians were haplogroup I, and in Macedonia they had significant R1a admixture from some assimilated tribes... roughly even spread of R1a across the rest of Greece says that this R1a people could have been Pelasgues... note that according to Klyosov R1a is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia, and Bosnia than in the rest of the world taken together... which would fit Pelasgues who are ancient inhabitants of Balkan peninsula and pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece...


btw. note also R1a hotspot in Italy that matches Etruscan imprint, and hole in R1a of lower Lydia that indicates area from which they departed meaning that later waves in Asia minor were non R1a people.... same thing is visible in Paphlagonia and can be related to departure of Paphlagonia Eneti (future Veneti and later also Slavs)...
 
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