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Thread: Macedonians

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    22 July 1943

    at least 100 men killed in Athens and unknown in Northern Greece

    The day Hitler 'gave' Greek Makedonia To bulgarians as Gift for Helping him

    the total Number of Killed is unestimated,

    we only know that in Riot in Athens at least 100 killed the first day
    I don't know what do you want to imply? If you want to expose Vanco Mihajlov as a genuine Macedonian fighter you couldn't be more wrong. He has so much Macedonian blood on his hands that it makes me sick to speak about him. By the way he never had truly any governing power in Macedonia, except in Pirin Macedonia wich is still under Bulgarian rule.
    Let me ask you a question your teachers probably never spoke to you about. Why , in gerater measure than the rest of Greece the colaborators were given governance in the region of Macedonia? Why do you speak to me of the great Greek sacrifices in WW2 (which were great indeed) when the same people that were fighting and suffering under the Germans were fighting and suffering for a long period afterwards under you right wing government. Who do you represent? The Greek fighters that were chased all over the world (and still are) or the Greek colaborators that have written you such a sweetsounding history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    At least we speak their Language, and some us are not christians but Pagans.
    No you speak Demotic, and even Demotic was too hard for the majority of the population back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    One Think is For SURE

    Hellenism was not Slavicism or MaC-Donaldialism,
    Byzantine was Not Greek but Protect some Greek Literature, and some Greek people,
    They wrote on koine. They had no intention nor did they protect anything Hellenic (note the Hellenic is not equal to Greek). Hellenism well that's a term which best suits the 18-th and 19-th century and it's a whole different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    From 1870 your enemy is Greeks, cause they stop panslavism and mother Russia to expand to sea,

    So who are you?
    you never fight against Serbs,
    you Never fight against Bulgaria,
    You never fight against Turks

    your only Fight is with Greeks and Greek History, cause they are the only ones that stop your expansionism.

    well maybe we are equals of Ancient Greeks, but surely we not fake MaC-donaldians.
    utter ignorance. If it wasn't for Russia in the 1870-1912 period you would have been what you should have always been proper Hellada. Read their diplomatic correspondance from 1902-1903 for example (it is publushed dont worry) and you will find many Macedonians (You complained that there weren't many in that period don't you???)

    Since I hate repeating myself I will point you for further reading:
    about the Macedonian rebelion from 1689 - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 173
    about the Greek "liberation" of Macedonia - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 172

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndronikD View Post
    And what is there to explain? It is not the same. That's the explanation.
    Now if you want to say that he explains WHY it is not the same, that's a different matter.
    I just hope that we do not end up as the undiscovered dorians - the jewel of the hellenic people. We have allready heard similar stories from the Bulgarians.
    In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

    The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.

    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html

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    ... and what about ancient Macedonia ?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami View Post

    ... and what about ancient Macedonia ?



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    when did ancient end ...............yesterday or before Christ or something else

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

    The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.

    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html
    I find it very interesting, thanks for the info.
    Maybe Maciamo will find time to do maps for different R1a clads. Can't wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.
    [/B]
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html
    That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami (2) View Post
    That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.
    No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.

    sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.

    If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
    The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.

    Also, religion plays no part in DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.

    If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
    The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.

    Also, religion plays no part in DNA
    Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.

    And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.

    And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.
    can you !!

    you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    can you !!

    you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this
    I said Bulgarians not bulgars;

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.
    Yes generally that is that, though the diversity of R1A1A7 is better indicator of its age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.
    The question is what is the frequency of r1a1a7 amongst r1a bearers on the Blakans and the problem with the "older" R1a bearers such as Mycenians among others, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong,
    Well that is what the discourse is about on this thread for the whole time, and no matter how proven it seems to be some people just repeat it again and again and again because it suits them so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong.
    Markedly different - of course not. In terms of the genetics Macedonians are different from the Greeks (ok let's say southern Greeks or some Greeks if that is to your satisfaction) but that does not mean that some of them are less or more worthy. (many people seem to draw such conclusions).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.
    So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndronikD View Post

    So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.
    Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav.
    There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
    Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea


    IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndronikD View Post
    So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.
    Arabic was adopted on a very large scale in the middles ages, but not every country today who speaks arabic are arabs.

    Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.

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    well you all make this debate interesting,

    Lets read something about History,

    Spartans when attack Olymp and Atheneans also we read that were massacre by bows,
    Bow tecniks were known to 2 areas of Ancient Greece and 1 relative to Greeks,
    Bow where known to Cretans and to Pelasgians, Alexander Bowman named Cretan archers,
    Boeotians are mentioned that came from Crete

    the Other race is Aeolians, Aeolians learn the bow tecnik by Pelasgians,
    Myrmidons had great Bowmans,
    we Know that Philoktetes Odyseus etc were not Myceneans
    and Godess ARtemis and had great influence in minor Asian Greeks were Pelasgians used to Lived,

    the 3rd Relative to Greeks is Thracians,
    Mygdonians especially and the old Pieri
    Orpheus was Pieri Thracian famous Bowman

    The Spear was not a Makedonian tactic, it was imported later by Phillip

    So the connection of army skills of Ancient Makedonians lead us to Crete, Thessaly and EPirus and south Makedonia were AEolians and Pelasgians lived and to THracians,

    But which Thracians?

    By History we find a bond of Makedonians with Bryges,
    Mygdonians were Bryges,

    by watching Makedonian Bow we find it different from Mycenean Bow, very close to Cretan Bow, and smaller than the Thracian Bow,
    far away from the Persian bow,

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    Interesting, welcome to Eupedia Yetos. Can you post pictures of different bow from different cultures? It would be interesting to see what other bows match Makedonian bow closest.

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    24 pages of over analysis of what the ancient macedons were, when its actually quite clear.

    Bronze age Mycenaean Greece saw greeks confined to the peleponesus, attica, thessaly, and some islands. They were centred amoung large palace complexes like Mycenae, Pylos, and Thebes. Minoan Crete didn't speak Greek, they spoke an undecifered language written in Linear A.

    Looking an homer's Iliad, we have a good geographical description of who lives where, and the people that live around the Axius (Vardar) River are the Paeonians, who in homer's Iliad, sided with the Trojans.

    After the destruction of every near eastern civilization by some undetermined force save for Egypt, Mycenae Greeks started to spead out all over the Aegean sea. They went north into the lower Axius river basin, into epirus, eastward into Ionia and Cyprus. This historical period is called the "dark ages", starting around 1200 BC.

    The Mycenean greeks that ventured north would be the foundation of the Macedon kingdom some centuries later, organised by the Argead dynasty.

    Ancient Macedonians are not some mysterious people, they did not come from outer space, we have ample findings and documentation about them. What has changed though is that a former yugoslav state has been trying to distort reality and history through nationalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav.
    There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
    Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea
    There are more problems than solutions in what is now known as "the spread of Slavic languages". Consider this for example:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/48903516/T...rin-Curta-2004

    Or the problem that Slavic languages and Baltic have the most conservative grammar of all IE languages but Old Indic and Old Iranian.

    The problems exist only for those who understand Slavic, unfortunately most of the Slavic "historians" don't understand a word of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.
    The only thing that we can know for sure is that ancient Macedonians were not Hellens (there were no Greeks at that time). About who the ancient Macedonians were and what was their culture no one can say much for sure, at least now. However some presumptions can be established with a great level of credibility. One is that they certainly were not extinct since they were not whales nad there were no whalers back then :).
    About ancient DNA and how it is established you can look for the Myceneans on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.
    There is something that is called argument and there is something that is called wishfull thinking.
    Take this for example:
    http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com...theast-europe/

    or this:

    http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

    For Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled to be true yu need to refutate this people i.e. to refutate their methods or the way they use their methods. Telling a story is not sufficient nor is it an analysis as you like to name it.

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    Ethnic group
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    the Late PIE gives a well known family,


    The Greco-Aryan
    Hellenic language is part of it,

    ancient Makedonians according History belong to the Thessalian family of Balkan Nations,
    But they are also connected whith Thracians, Brygian Branch, and Epirotans
    Ancient Makedonians worship oak tree Like Epirotans,

    Now about Genneticks, the more R1a is studied the more we know,
    but until today, M17/M198 possitive is much lower in Greece Norway and south Italy, Minor Asia and west Iranic pop , Than in the traditional Slavic R1a with a 1/(4-5) and the Turkish-Mongols (4-5)/1
    the History as is writtten, gives clear that Makedonians is a mix of Cretans Thettalians and Thracians, a connection with Illyrians exist especially in Upper Makedonia (west)
    Archaiology proves the same,
    Linguistic proves the same, etc

    Personally for me it is clear who were ancient Makedonians,
    the problem of modern times is different,


    to be more specific,
    Hellenik language is destroyed after romano-Celtic and drop to poor modern Greek,
    elder Hellenic especially Hesiodic has form that exist only in Avestan and sanshqrit,

    it is considered the more rich IE language,
    just think that past had 4 forms as avestan and was constructed the same form,

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    There is an interesting parallel (consciousness-wise not genes wise) between the ancient Macedonians and Greeks and the more recent Manchus and Han Chinese.

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    Well, I am afraid that the DNA analysis cannot help with Ancient Macedonia since there is little or no DNA sample analysed for these people. We must rely upon history, linguistics and archaeology.

    According to history and archaeology, Macedonia begins around the 7th century B.C. when a group of shepherds moves from the (later upper Macedonian) region of Orestis, follows the Aliakmon gorge and takes over Pieria - by evicting the "wild Pierians" from the land...

    The conquests continue by the expulsion and assimilation of scores of Brygians (who emigrate to Frygia in Asia Minor) Paeonians and other "Barbarians", a significant portion of them being classified as THRACIANS...

    The Macedonians assimilated a large number of foreign people by imposing their own language upon them - something that would give conflicting DNA results, if they ever come forward from ANCIENT skeletons. Nevertheless, what was their language?

    Well, the existing evidence points out to two different branches of Greek, the one being the North-Western Dorian (the invaders from Orestis plus the Epirotans who were classified as "Macedonians" - The invading clan itself, and the Thessalian element coming from the South. The onomastic analysis of the names of the soldiers of Alexander the Great (already compliled by 19th century German historians) shows some 80% Greek, 5% Illyrian and 15% undetermined. This 15% is gradually turning into "weird Greek" over the last century. Nevertheless, where did that Illyrian comes from?

    The Lyncestians were Illyrians. That is what is the claim against the grandmother of Alexander the Great (she spoke no word of Greek) and some other references to Lyncestians. Interestingly, the Lyncestians were often allied with the Illyrians in their claim to the throne of Macedonia: When Aeropus claimed the throne, he did so because Bardyllis supported him. This can be explained by the linguistic bond.

    Several of those Thracians who were assimilated (most of the Paeonians) were certainly not Greek. The very few samples of their language point to a Satem language related to the Baltic languages. Nevertheless, they were certainly not Slavs.

    The Macedonian royal court was 100% Greek, with archaic (Homeric) institutions and plenty of "Barbarian" subjects who were gradually getting assimilated. When they first appeared in the Olympics (Alexander I) they were opposed by other contestants, and (since it was their first attempt at the Olympics) they had to prove their Greekness. They were asked of their origin, responded that they were from Argos (Orestikon, in Orestis) and then the Hellanodikai left the Argeads (of the Peloponesse) to sort it out. Argeads and Macedonians conferred and decided that the Macedonian royal family was descending from the old kings of Argos who were expelled. In reality the Argeads were expelled from Macedonia some centuries earlier (much like all of the Dorians, and according to Herodotus) and of course they kept their Dorian names (there were over 100 locations named Argos all over Greece, and a mythical monster as well) much like the Bottians were expelled from the Voion mountain in Macedonia by the Macedonians, and went to live in Boeotia, while the mount Olympus gave its' name to the Olympics far south in Elis of the Peloponesse...

    All other characteristics of Ancient Macedonian, including toponyms, calendar e.t.c. put it in the context of Dorian. Maybe though Dorian itself whould have been put in context of Macedonian since the Dorians used to be called Makednoi and to live in Macedonia, according to Herodotus again...

    The Slavs originated in Ukraine. Their languages have common terms for everything that is native in Ukraine (lowlands, rivers, no sea) but different (and often borrowed) terms for anything not present in the most of Ukraine (mountains, sea)

    Those Slavs invaded Macedonia only during the Middle Age, destroyed all urban settlements that fell in their hands and expelled plenty of Macedonians, mostly to Thrace.

    Of course, as Jared Diamond points out, in order for a population to be totally annihilated, in mass scale, the victim should have no knowledge of agriculture while the victor should have knowledge of agriculture, as it happened in Africa with the agricultural revolution from the western part towards all directions, the Korean invasion of Japan and the modern colonization of the Americas and Oceania. The most of the archaic Greeks arrived from the Middle East with the knowledge of agriculture in their baggage, and they have never been repulsed ever since. Several Northern R1a-R1b people invaded and conquered Greece (and the Balkans in general), like the Dorians, but none was able to displace the indigenous population - but only to impose their IndoEuropean language upon them - accepting some of the losers vocabulary. In cultural terms, some of those R1a and/or R1b are the Greeks, while the Middle Easterners (who are more numerous) are not culturally Greeks. Herodotus pointed that out very well when he classified the Dorians as Greeks and the Athenians as Pelasgians (although he was oversimplifying the situation)

    The question of whether the IndoEuropean Ancient Greeks were R1a or R1b (or a combination of both) is the only question to be resolved. Ironically, the original Greeks might have been R1a who turned Centurm while the R1a who supposedly migrated from the Balkans to Eastern Europe developed their Satem language along the way (starting from Thrace) although it would make by far more sense to suggest that the R1a presence in Greece is a remnant of the Thracians, and that Macedonia was much better defended from later attacks from the Roman empire - and the climate was less continental and more Mediterranean, with the relevant yields - than the Balkans north of it, allowing by far more R1a to be preserved there than elsewhere...

    That is of course until we get really ancient DNA in large numbers...

  24. #599
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.
    No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).

    Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1f8bcdeead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami View Post
    No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).

    Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1f8bcdeead
    \

    Barbarians were people who did not speak greek. Athenians and other "high" status greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. If you are implying Macedonians (ancient) did not speak greek I think you lie to yourself.

    I sence again that you imply albanian decent from Illyrians, there is no continuation, I'm sorry. Albanian started to appear and were recorded in the middel ages, not before.

    Just another nationalist.

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