Macedonians

[Neander]

Plutarch mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek).[22][23]

It is not unspeakable. But it i "i shpejti" Aspetos in albanian means fast man, which is the first characteristic of Achilles.

 

[Neander]

I dunno, it sounds like Illyrians where Epirots main enemy.

When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.

Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.

 

[Elias2]

When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.

Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.

What does that have to do with culture. I think your are making a mistake in using ancient politics to define a people. In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity.

The theater of Dodona with Mt. Tomarus in the background.

It looks very greek to me.

 

[Zajaz]

Unlike most other Greeks of this time, who lived in or around city-states, the inhabitants of Epirus lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of the poleis. of southern Greece

Copy-pasting a piece from WIKI doesn't give much credit, dude! I do not understand how you come up with such biased assertions like the above citation. It is true that the inhabitants of Epirus mostly lived in small villages that is quite different from social organization in Greece. But what this passage fail to mention is that ignore totally the very fact of the same organization in Illyris. For example, even Illyrians shared the same traditions, language, cultural affinities and social organizations with the Epirotes.

Their region lay on the periphery of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuries

That's weird! Epirus was excluded by most of ancient geographers from Greece. For many of them, the most northerly confine of Greece hardly surpassed Thessaly (more exactly Peneius river). The below description of Strabo (based on Ephorus account) reject your claims of Epirus as being Greek territory.

Ἔφορος μὲν οὖν ἀρχὴν εἶναι τῆς Ἑλλάδος τὴν Ἀκαρνανίαν φησὶν ἀπὸ τῶν ἑσπερίων μερῶν· ταύτην γὰρ συνάπτειν πρώτην τοῖς Ἠπειρωτικοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania (Ambracia Gulf) is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes(Chaonian, Thesprotians, Molossi, Cassiopei.

Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric)

Wrong! In the original text of Plutarch nowhere is mentioned explicitly 'dialect'. This is more a biased translation of some Phil-Hellenic scholars like Hammond or Errington. They invented such phrase in order to make the language of Epirus as one of the dialects of Greek. This goes against the mainstream opinion of ancient writers who acknowledged the language of Epirotic tribes as 'barbarian'.

Other writers, such as ..., describe them as Greeks.

However, this is a matter of modern interpretation of ancient texts. Many Greek nationalists pick up some vague quotes out of their real content in order to suit to their national agenda for promoting the Greekness of Epirus.

Here is a citation I've got from a little research by Google:

"Philip contracted an alliance with Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians, and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".

The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography, pg.409

 

[iapetoc]

zajaz Bullshit

Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans

Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus


ACCEPT IT

THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC
the pelasgia is the Thera (island civilization, not the illyrian
Albanian nationalist must face the truth and stop bullshit
Pelasgic is an ancient civilization that gave many nation

IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE REST AND WHY EPIRUS OR CHAONIA IS ARCHEGONUS GREECE
Epirotes are the Aeolian Branch of Pelasgian Greek Speaking

if you remember the Makedonians where more understand by Aeolians than from south Doric
Aeolians Pelasgic Greek even today is consider barbaric cause they cut the a e o i and speak extremely fast
Epitotans and thessalians even today speak that way,

In epirus mt Pindus where the cadmeian-illyrian-phoenician people, and The greek IE speakers and were isolated due to rough terrain
But the colonisation and the kingdoms that were build created states

Now i have to repeat again to understand it
Greeks are pelasgian tribe
illyrians are pelasgian tribe
Thracians probably are pelasgian
etruscan are similar to pelasgian
Cretan - minoan is the most clear pelasgic culture
but with Pelasgic does not mean Illyrians
besides if you look where the pelasgic areas are mentioned you will reach today bulgaria (blagoevgrad)
Pelasgic and leleges are ancient cultures
Leleges are the fathers of dorians locri and Makedonians
Pelasgic Aeolian are the father of thessalian and epirotan
the only tribe that exist AND WAS PELASGIC ARE THE DRYOPES, CLEARLY IE TRIBE
oak tree in pelasgian is bala(nos)
oak tree in IE is Dru

the pellai you mention is mt pellion
king pellias in Homer
Makedonian pellios (δεδιωκεται τοισ πελασοιν)
greek palios
what are you saying -> makedonian pellios as epirotan as greek
pellios palllios
what bullshit you say? clear Greek pelasgic

the fact you don't understand is that Illyrians were not the only pelasgic

But pelasgic is the wide Thyrrenian language
which is Illyria Hellas Etruria Troy Crete Phillistines and i beleive thracians, i m sure about some aegean tribes but not sure for more inner north.
Pelasgic comes from pelag means flat and today pelago
By understanding that you will see that greeks are the south pelasgic,
and the IE as many say, simply greek belongs to IE as albanian but only by them selfs
the pelasgic language is something LAtin
spain speaks LAtin
Italy speaks latin
France speak latin
same is the pelasgic,

and plz Albanians Nationalist accept it,
Epirotan spoke Aeolian pelasgian
the fact that spoke pelasgian can put them in Greek -Illyrian-Cretan Etrurian family
besides the only ones that do not accept that Greeks are pelasgic are the albanians nationalist, why?

Glaukus hmmm Glayka the oawl Bird, the holy bird of Greeks
another prove that Illyrians are pelasgic similar the Greeks

 

[Garrick]

zajaz Bullshit

Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans

Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus


ACCEPT IT

THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC

Iapetoc
What do you think about
the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims

Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic

he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?

 

[how yes no 2]

Iapetoc
What do you think about
the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims

Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic

he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?

it makes sense if R1a is 11500 years old in Balkans and 3000-5000 in rest of Europe as shown by Klyosov...

in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons...

what probably happened is that part of R1a strategically moved to north, obtained better war equipment spread throughout Euroasia, connected with original base in south Sibir and went down all the way to India and Egypt and also into Asia minor...

(b) There is no justification in the results of a "Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1 ancient population allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).

(c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),

(d) There are two different groups of Indian R1a1 haplotypes; one shows a good match with the Russian Slavic R1a1 group, having a common ancestor several hundred years "younger" than the Russian R1a common ancestor (4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp). This supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian literature) around 3600 ybp. The other Indian R1a population is significantly older, with a common ancestor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated from South Siberia to South India.

(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.

http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

 

[Neander]

In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity.

In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!

It looks very greek to me.

The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.

Theatre is not greek sign.

 

[Neander]

in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons...

You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.

Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.

 

[how yes no 2]

You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.

Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.

I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
I am not saying that, this paper is:

Our estimated coalescence age of about 4.5 ky for haplogroups E-V13 and J-M12 in Europe (and their CIs) would also exclude a demographic expansion associated with the introduction of agriculture from Anatolia and would place this event at the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age, a period that saw strong demographic changes as clearly testified from archeological records (Childe 1957; Piggott 1965; Kristiansen 1998). The arrangement of E-V13 (fig. 2D) and J-M12 (not shown) frequency surfaces appears to fit the expectations for a range expansion in an already populated territory (Klopfstein et al. 2006). Moreover, similarly to the results reported by Pericˇ ´ic et al. (2005) for E-M78 network a, the dispersion of E-V13 and J-M12 haplogroups seems to have mainly followed the river waterways connecting the southern Balkans to north-central Europe, a route that had already hastened by a factor 4-6 the spread of the Neolithic to the rest of the continent (Tringham 2000; Davison et al.
2006).

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

but you are right, that estimation might be wrong...
I was just checking this

On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13 (Table 3) are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame. The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya, Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately 9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28, suggest an expansion time of approximately 10000 years ago. I

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez

so, my conclusion about spread of R1a from Balkan caused by E-V13 arriaval seems not to hold...

 

[Neander]

I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
I am not saying that, this paper is:

Well, we are not blind-minded, just to read a paper, and to believe that.

Ev13 is old here like it is said here:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

 

[Neander]

On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13
(Table 3) are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame.
The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material
culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears
some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.
60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

 

[how yes no 2]

yes, I found it too as you see above..
as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....

 

[Neander]

yes, I found it too as you see above..
as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....

But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,

The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.

Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)

 

[how yes no 2]

But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,
The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.
Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)

genetists are not so good with time estimates... and people often tend to see what they want to see...

hopefully, one day it will be possible to reconstruct exact paths and timeline of all major branches and subbranches and to map it to history events....
and do not think I have something against E-V13, E-V13 is as good as any haplogroup... Serbia has pretty large amount as well...

but today I read in another thread about spread of E-V13 into Europe 4000-4500 years bp and here I had a thought perhaps that is related to timing for start of expansion of R1a from Balkan that was indicated by Klyosov....
there was no bad intention... it just looked as possible good match between cause and consequence...

 

[Elias2]

In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!

The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.

Theatre is not greek sign.

You need to be more clear, who are differnt people?

And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.

The theatre is a very greek trademark. Illyrians were not greek, you are correct because if they were they wouldn't be called Illyrians. But that doesn't mean modern day albanians are Illyrians. There is no evidence outside of geographical area to suggest this. And if you just go by geography, Croatians, bosnians, and serbs have just as much right to call themselves Illyrians as albanians do.

 

[iapetoc]

Neander

with bullshit you can prove nothing

1 Thessalian are the pure Greek speakers and remember that Graikos was born there,
Although I believe comes from the Pellasgic γρουσσα -γλωττα - γρετα (language), and the virb Γρεκω (Ι speak, i unterstand)

Now the Greeks you mentiooned are The Dripoes (Druid-Druop) who were R1a carriers and lived in Phthia
who want it or Not Thessaly is the center of Greek IE language since Driopes lived there, simply the IE and the pelasgic Greek unite to create the language,
Makedonians Epirotans are Greek-Pelasgic,
Berbarian doesnot mean the one who do not speak Greek But
Bark
βαρκιζω virb means Bark -> the one who sounds like Dog's bark when he speak,
in a wide meaning non Greek speakers,

2 about theaters

READ WHO WAS THESPIS AND WERE THE FIRST THEATER WERE BUILD< AND WERE THE FIRST PLAY WERE WRITTEN
I THINK IT IS TIME TO TELL US THAT ARISTOFANES AND EYRIPIDES ARE
Illyrians or thracians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespis


Cause I am sure that this is what is your next word,

with total deny simply you prove your cyclopean eye


Besides Modern Albanians do not Speak Pelasgic but more Romano-Celtic
Mire jam Clear Celtic Mire
or the Thracian MARI (godess MARA) which is considered slavonic?
the words you give me belongs mostly in ancient Illyrian
now if a connection exist that proves that albanians have connection with Pelasgic Not pelasgic people were albanians
Besides the Connection
Greek ΒΡΥΘ-Ω (doric Βρουτ-ω) Vruth Vrouth
Albanian Bret ( as you said before, i don't claim th correct but in post above you said it)
LEMNEAN PHOENICIAN BRUTAS (Brutas in etrurian Brutus in latin)
so what is the difference why the lemnean can be read only in albanian? and not in raskian
simply cause you are a one eye nationalist Nazi

another
Greek Βι-ωνω Vi-ono past ΕΒΙ-ΩΣΑ eviosa
Rascian past AVIS
LEMNEAN PELASGIAN AVILS
if exist in albanian language then you make the compare
cause I 'm satisfied that Raskian and lemnean can be connected

BESIDES WE ARE NOT CERTAIN IF ILLYRIANS WERE PELASGIC AND SIMILARITY COMES FROM GREEK-PELASGIC COLONIZATION IN ILLYRIA (elements that left)
BUT WE CONNECT ILLYRIA WITH CADMUS SON, ILLYROS A FAR PAST BEFORE MYCENAE KING PELASGIAN WHO INVADE THERE as History wich you Deny (herodotus)
now if Hellenes reunite after the sea people destruction and manage to unite pelasgian tribes again what is your problem?

cause you cannot accept Herodotus whenever you like
simply Herodotus gives the connection of Ill and Ell via Cadmus a phoenician King
as also Herodotus says that Makedonians came from the same place were dorians exist and karamos was an argean




Zajaz
you make the same Mistake with Dejavu
the nation is Hellenes not Greeks

Greeks are the area from agrinio to athens and from corinth to Thessaly
THAT AREA IS GREECE

Hellenes is the nation of 4 Aeolic Doric Ionic Achaic
it is not Greek republic But Hellenic republic
Greek in Greek language means either son of Graikos
EITHER THE VIRD ΓΡΙΚΩ - ΓΡΑΙΚΩ past ΕΓΡΙΚΗΣΑ
means understand and speak
dorric language Γρουσσα (Grico people)
now if ancient doric man asks, do you speak Greek, it should say Γρικας??
Greek is the area not the nation, understand that
The nation is Hellenes

That is Greece area the area of Hellanas river
Peloponese Crete Makedonia Thessaly Epirus is Hellas

 

[iapetoc]

Garrick
Pelasgian elements exist in Bulgarian language,
with the thracologist I speak we found enough
seems that Thracian has a small connection with Pelasgic,
now since exist in one south slavic probably eexists and in other
but it is difficult and risky to place south slavic language to pelasgic
pelasgic were more semitic-Anatolian-Phoenician language from the elements we found in Hommer and later
it seems that odrysse thracian have connection with Hettit Brygian and persian
But the connection of south slavic with pelasgic is uncertain cause the elements are not that many in odryssee as also some other thracians, but it is more clear with Sappean who are close to phoenician,
in bulgaria they spend a lot of money in search for thracians,
But even they, are not that sure if Thracians were clear Slavic speakers, Pelasgic Hettit-Anatolian
it seems that every tribe had its own code,
If you believe in listuistic then buy a good lexicon of etrurian-racian and Homeric and try to find similarities, similarites that connect similar meanings and sounds
like slavian Yam -Yem = eat
in Greek is Θρεφομαι -Τρωω but has a virb Γευομαι Yev-omai which means I taste, i try the food's taste and taste is Γευσις Yev-sis
as you see the main Greek Word and Slavic is not the same, But a similar to eat the virb taste is same root, that is linguistic element
then is the hard to collect how ancient is that word in the language, which areas speak it,
cause that word is either imported or same rooted from an ancient common language


Now about Phaistus is logogram not Hieroglyph, a sign probably as today traffick signs
and it is more Anatolian Luwan-Hettit than Minoan,
probably a sign in merchants area for lydian people

 

[Neander]

And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.

Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.

For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"

 

[Zajaz]

THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC

May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.

But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

So can you turn back in topic? Thnx