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Thread: Home of R1b1b2a1b4 and swabian dialect

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Home of R1b1b2a1b4 and swabian dialect



    Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
    The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

    Examples:

    Zorna : big basket
    Kratta: normal basket
    Hafa: pot
    Hag: fence
    Hagga: bull
    Wadel: tail
    Buzzeli: baby

    Have anyone an explanation for these words.
    Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?

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    The Raetians might have something to do with it. They appear as one of the most powerful alpine tribe according to several text. Some scholars have linked their language to Etruscan. It seems that with the arrival of Cisalpine Gaul circa 400 BC they moved northward. The Imperial province of Raetia in the Roman empire included switzerland, Tyrol and a German part south of the Danube.
    Also around the Alps, there is hotspot of Haplogroup G

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    Can someone give me a link to a etruscian dictionary.
    I want to prove the theory of spongetaro.

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    Interesting - Etruscans called themselves Raesena or Rasenna, so that is not far off from the Raetians, which would be our name for them. The Raetians name for themselves could very possibly be closer or even the same. I would like to see more on this.



    By the way - great name! Did you pick Gaeserich from the Vandal King?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The Raetians might have something to do with it. They appear as one of the most powerful alpine tribe according to several text. Some scholars have linked their language to Etruscan. It seems that with the arrival of Cisalpine Gaul circa 400 BC they moved northward. The Imperial province of Raetia in the Roman empire included switzerland, Tyrol and a German part south of the Danube.
    Also around the Alps, there is hotspot of Haplogroup G
    Good point.
    From what I can see based on list of important cities
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia
    Raetia included Swiss, complete south Germany (not just soutwest Germany) and north Italy, west most part of Austria....

    in fact, this makes me wonder whether alternative name of Serbs (Rascians see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raci and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia) may in fact origin not from some link with Etruscans but from being in most east parts of Raetia province

    historical source Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs settled Balkan from white Serbia which they call Boika (which likely has meaning land of Boii) where they originally dwelt... according to his words this land of Boika is beyond Hungary (called Turkey by Bizantine historians due to Hun and Avar settlements as this was all much before Turks settled in Asia minor) and neigbours Francia and white Croatia...this all points to Bohemia which is named after Boii tribe...

    The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....
    http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false

    Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2

    Strabo among people of Bohemia also names Sibini..

    Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;
    quoted from
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ghlight=sibini

    So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

    Sibini could be a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends



    now, back to Rhaetia

    if we look closest Raetian town to Bohemia, its name is Sorviodurum today Straubing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing)

    thus, Serbs lived in east most part of Raetia which partly overlapped with Bohemia, but were not Raetians (G haplogroup and different language)

    this is explainable by Vindelicia being added to Raetia province in 1st century AD....

    At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia". The whole province (including Vindelicia) was at first under a military prefect, then under a procurator; it had no standing army quartered in it but relied on its own native troops and militia for protection until the 2nd century AD.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia

    Vindelici name is related to Celtic word "white", while if you look up in Byzantine source Serbs of Bohemia were also called "white"...

    Vindelici is obviously related to Vind/Veneti tribal name...
    Venetoi = latin wind gods
    Wend = Germanic word for Sorbs and Slavs in general

    Jordanes indicates that early Slavs are populous race of Veneti

    in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html


    I have already shown that spread of early Slavs does match spread of I2a2 and not of R1a.... and gave other clues that Veneti (who origin from Paphlagonia Eneti who were kicked out of Asia minor after Troyan war) were I2a2...

    now, this is all in accordance with known facts about Vindelicia

    The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia


    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Interesting - Etruscans called themselves Raesena or Rasenna, so that is not far off from the Raetians, which would be our name for them. The Raetians name for themselves could very possibly be closer or even the same. I would like to see more on this.
    Raetians are considered related to Etruscan
    Little is known of the origin or history of the Raetians, who appear in the records as one of the most powerful and warlike of the Alpine tribes. Livy states distinctly[1] that they were of Etruscan origin (a belief that is favored by Niebuhr and Mommsen). A tradition reported by Justin[2] and Pliny the Elder[3] affirmed that they were a portion of that people who had settled in the plains of the Po and were driven into the mountains by the invading Gauls, when they assumed the name of "Raetians" from an eponymous leader Raetus; a more probable derivation, however, is from Celtic rait ("mountain land"). Even if their Etruscan origin be accepted, at the time when the land became known to the Romans, Celtic tribes were already in possession of it and had amalgamated so completely with the original inhabitants that, generally speaking, the Raetians of later times may be regarded as a Celtic people, although non-Celtic tribes (Lepontii, Euganei) were settled among them.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 23-01-11 at 00:12. Reason: corrected misspelling and added one link....

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    swai did take the name of the famous king geiserich.

    But i don`t think that the are swabian words are etruscic.

    I rather think this is PRE-IE, perhaps neolithic.

    The most special swabian words are female: little children, cooking , baby and garden

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    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post
    swai did take the name of the famous king geiserich.

    But i don`t think that the are swabian words are etruscic.

    I rather think this is PRE-IE, perhaps neolithic.

    The most special swabian words are female: little children, cooking , baby and garden
    it could have been pre-IE language of Europe...
    can you write more words of non-IE origin from southwest Germany?

    but, look at what google (translate & search) gives me:

    Wadel: tail / litvanian uodega
    Kratta: normal basket / litvanian kraitė
    Hagga bull / estonian härg
    Hag fence / dutch hek, haag /danish hegn

    (btw. fence Basque Hesiaren / Azerbaijani Hasar)

    Hafa: pot is likely derived from afroasiatic cognate Kada..word Kada also exist in Serbian in meaning (bathing) tub...

    For example Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].
    http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/...atic_languages
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 23-01-11 at 15:18.

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    Thank you how yes no for your response.

    So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

    Hag: fence is possibly germanic

    Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

    Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
    But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



    I can give some more special swabian words:

    Zinka: nose
    Beig: heap of wood
    Häs: clothes

    schira: put wood on a fire
    triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
    motza: little children play with dirt and water

    helinga: silent
    welaweg: probable

    All this words are totally different of german.

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    Here is my opinion:

    In the neolithic south-west germany was dominated by the first farmers and their languages. Prominent haplogroups were E, J and relics of mesolithic I.
    In the bronze age IE-warbands conquered south-west germany. (Mostly R1b1b2a1 and G). In a very short time the main subclades R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1b*, R1b1b2a1b4 and R1b1b2ba1b5 came into life and spread over Europe.
    Special Swabian words are therefore relics of mesolithic (Hg I) and Neolithic (E,J).

    Any thoughts about this?

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    Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
    in Breton language child = bugel

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...n_Swadesh_list

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
    in Breton language child = bugel
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...n_Swadesh_list
    Hard to say. I'm not sure how "g" would yield "zz" (which is actually pronounced "ts"), but that's not the only problem. Another problem is that cognates of the word "Bugel" are unattested in other Celtic languages - if there were it would be possible to reconstruct what the original form was like. It would be helpful if there were known cognates in at least Welsh and/or Irish, but I could not find any.

    EDIT: In my opinion the Latin word "Bucellus" (biscuit, cake, morsel) is a far more likely candidate, especially because Latin "c" often yields the pronounciation "ts" in German (for example "Caesar", which is actually pronounced 'tsɛːzar' ).

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    Mmh, with some imagination I can find other German associations of some of these words:

    hag - Hecke [engl. hedge]

    Zinka - in Lower German dialects "Zinken" also stand for big nose

    Wadel - reminds me of the High German verb "wedeln" [engl. to wag]

    Buzzeli - now that is really interesting! Southwest Germany and Switzerland have the tales of the mythical goblin "Butzemann". I've read somewhere that this child-frightener corresponds to the Celtic "Puk" or later English "Bogeyman". So it might also trivialize this "Butze", meaning "little goblin", or in fact it is Celtic for "little child"...

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    Oh I just found something another interesting:
    bozen or bessen [middle high german] - to make noise

    I think that's it! That would also explain "Butzemann".

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    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post

    I can give some more special swabian words:

    welaweg: probable

    All this words are totally different of german.

    How about vielleicht ("maybe") or English belike ("probably")?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
    in Breton language child = bugel

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...n_Swadesh_list
    What does all this mean.........in the venet a child is buxaro , since venet letter x is a zed sound, does it mean its celtic?

    Playing with words can lead people astray in finding the truth

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What does all this mean.........in the venet a child is buxaro , since venet letter x is a zed sound, does it mean its celtic?
    is it in Venetic or Venetian? as far as we know those are 2 completely unrelated languages....
    both had some Celtic influence, so it is not excluded...

    btw. word could have passed in another direction as well....Breton word may origin from ancient Venetic as Celtic Veneti did live in Britanny...

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Playing with words can lead people astray in finding the truth
    no, playing with words is no problem...
    being biased and engaging in wishful thinking is what usually leads people astray in finding the truth...if you want the truth, choose no sides...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    is it in Venetic or Venetian? as far as we know those are 2 completely unrelated languages....
    both had some Celtic influence, so it is not excluded...

    btw. word could have passed in another direction as well....Breton word may origin from ancient Venetic as Celtic Veneti did live in Britanny...

    It older than the word Wend which is from only 700AD

    The topic was about high german which is in the middle ages

    How old do you think venet is?

    The youngest language in Italy is Italian from the 13th century

    Venet started in the 5th to 6th century, below is the first recorded text

    Se pareba boves, alba pratalia araba
    albo versorio teneba, negro semen seminaba

    boves = oxen
    pratalia = fields

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    zanipolo, again, we speak of Veneti on unrelated thread....
    find thread about Veneti or open new one...

    the word is thus from Venetian and not from Venetic...

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    It older than the word Wend which is from only 700AD

    The topic was about high german which is in the middle ages

    How old do you think venet is?

    The youngest language in Italy is Italian from the 13th century

    Venet started in the 5th to 6th century, below is the first recorded text

    Se pareba boves, alba pratalia araba
    albo versorio teneba, negro semen seminaba

    boves = oxen
    pratalia = fields
    text above is known as Veronese riddle...

    The Veronese Riddle is a riddle, apparently half-Italian, half-Latin, written on the margin of a parchment, on the Verona Orational, probably in the 8th or early 9th century, by a Catholic monk from Verona, a city in the Veneto region, in Northern Italy. It was a very popular riddle in the Middle Ages and has survived into dialects to date.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronese_Riddle

    Wends is Germanic word used to denote Slavic people... it is older then 700 AD
    Jordanes writes his Getica around 551 AD,,,there he claims that early Slavs are from the race of Veneti

    In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html
    Jordanes - The origin and deeds of Goths
    year 551 AD


    there are arguments that name Wends was initially used for Baltic people...
    However note the mention of Aesti in text above....Aesti are clearly ancestors of Estonians...thus Balts...however they are not mentioned as Veneti by Jordanes...

    thus, 2nd century AD mention of Ouenedai on Baltic shores in Ptolemy's Geographica is not likely about Balts either...

    afterall, Finish people even today use name Venäläiset for Russians... Finish had continuity of contact with Balts... so, why would they use for Russians the name that should be used for Balts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    zanipolo, again, we speak of Veneti on unrelated thread....
    find thread about Veneti or open new one...

    the word is thus from Venetian and not from Venetic...



    text above is known as Veronese riddle...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronese_Riddle

    Wends is Germanic word used to denote Slavic people... it is older then 700 AD
    Jordanes writes his Getica around 551 AD,,,there he claims that early Slavs are from the race of Veneti


    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
    Jordanes - The origin and deeds of Goths
    year 551 AD


    there are arguments that name Wends was initially used for Baltic people...
    However note the mention of Aesti in text above....Aesti are clearly ancestors of Estonians...thus Balts...however they are not mentioned as Veneti by Jordanes...

    thus, 2nd century AD mention of Ouenedai on Baltic shores in Ptolemy's Geographica is not likely about Balts either...

    afterall, Finish people even today use name Venäläiset for Russians... Finish had continuity of contact with Balts... so, why would they use for Russians the name that should be used for Balts?
    You really need to stop using wikipedia as your main reference, Wikipedia is written by non scholars . The only way to use wikipedia is to use the attached references and any other references from then on. Once it is established that wikipedia are correct, then sure, wikipedia is a nice compact site to link.

    so this link
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...Riddle&f=false
    is better

    Note wikipedia, call everthing and everyone by todays nationality, so vivaldi is italian instead of venetian. Ciskens is dutch instead of frisian. Captain cook is british instead of welsh, charles the bold is french instead of burgundian, wikipedia just exclude places that do not exist anymore and make them fit to todays borders. I am waiting for the day they say frederick the great is polish instead of Prussian.
    To conclude, there where truly no-italians in the modern sense before 1860. Are there still yogoslavs, no. wikipedia changes historical people and places to fit today's nationalities ( unless they are from antiquity). I woder what Tito will become.

    The initial article was about the High german text from the middle ages. I do not know why you brought up ancient stuff.

    As for you Jordanes, I already said he was wrong, because as you said, there was no slavs in ancient venetic ( italy ), so, since venetic became extinct before Christ, then Jordanes references refer to someone else and not the adriatic veneti.

    As for wikipedia using the term italian in text. Historically everyone knows that when italy became a nation in 1860, there was only 630000 speakers of italian out of a population of 25 million. Wikipedia seem to mislead people in bracketing a "very Minor " language and referencing everything in modern italy from the end of the roman empire until 1860 to italian, when you know as well as I know that the regional languages of Italy came from the Latin ( known as Vulgar Latin. these languages are over 500 years older than italian. A language introduced by Dante from a mix of many regional languages to aid the merchants and artisans in their trade, because the nobility still spkoe Latin to each other.

    If you want to see old Venetian text ( 63 pages) . Its to do with Treviso Arithmetic , the first arthimetic in the west
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treviso_Arithmetic
    See bottom of page for the link

    I again say to you, how old do you think Venet is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geiserich View Post
    Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
    The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

    Examples:

    Zorna : big basket
    Kratta: normal basket
    Hafa: pot
    Hag: fence
    Hagga: bull
    Wadel: tail
    Buzzeli: baby

    Have anyone an explanation for these words.
    Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?
    I was wondering the same thing about the Walloon dialect of French in Belgium. Walloon is a Romance language, with a considerable Germanic influence, but quite a few basic words do not seem to have an IE origin. Either they are neologisms (words invented by the locals that do not come from any other language), or they are vestiges from some pre-IE language. In the latter case, the most obvious source language would be the one spoken by the Chalcolithic people of the Seine-Oise-Marne culture (the last pre-IE culture in southern Belgium).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I was wondering the same thing about the Walloon dialect of French in Belgium. Walloon is a Romance language, with a considerable Germanic influence, but quite a few basic words do not seem to have an IE origin. Either they are neologisms (words invented by the locals that do not come from any other language), or they are vestiges from some pre-IE language. In the latter case, the most obvious source language would be the one spoken by the Chalcolithic people of the Seine-Oise-Marne culture (the last pre-IE culture in southern Belgium).

    In this site (in French) , the Seine-Oise-Marne culture is said to be an extent of the Michelsberg culture (IE) but it is also written that the first IE invasion in France failed
    http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/zzz.htm

    http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/z10.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    In this site (in French) , the Seine-Oise-Marne culture is said to be an extent of the Michelsberg culture (IE) but it is also written that the first IE invasion in France failed
    http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/zzz.htm

    http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/z10.htm
    Very interesting maps, thanks !

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    Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

    plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

    http://americanairlines.wcities.com/...cal-background

    With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

    Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

    If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


    Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

    plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

    http://americanairlines.wcities.com/...cal-background

    With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

    Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

    If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


    Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian
    Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

    The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

    The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.
    Ok on your expalnation of the Vindelicians, what about the many internet sites of illyrian urns and settlements in innsbruck austria. The illyrians must have benn there prior to the celtic migration. then again the celts and illyrians mixed very easily in pannonia and noricum to name just 2 areas.

    would the celts have any "neighbourly" traces of similar DNA ?

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