Home of R1b1b2a1b4 and swabian dialect

I was wondering the same thing about the Walloon dialect of French in Belgium. Walloon is a Romance language, with a considerable Germanic influence, but quite a few basic words do not seem to have an IE origin. Either they are neologisms (words invented by the locals that do not come from any other language), or they are vestiges from some pre-IE language. In the latter case, the most obvious source language would be the one spoken by the Chalcolithic people of the Seine-Oise-Marne culture (the last pre-IE culture in southern Belgium).


In this site (in French) , the Seine-Oise-Marne culture is said to be an extent of the Michelsberg culture (IE) but it is also written that the first IE invasion in France failed
http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/zzz.htm

http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/z10.htm
 
Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

http://americanairlines.wcities.com/austria_innsbruck_120?guide=historical-background

With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian
 
Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

http://americanairlines.wcities.com/austria_innsbruck_120?guide=historical-background

With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian

Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.
 
Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.

Ok on your expalnation of the Vindelicians, what about the many internet sites of illyrian urns and settlements in innsbruck austria. The illyrians must have benn there prior to the celtic migration. then again the celts and illyrians mixed very easily in pannonia and noricum to name just 2 areas.

would the celts have any "neighbourly" traces of similar DNA ?
 
Ok on your expalnation of the Vindelicians, what about the many internet sites of illyrian urns and settlements in innsbruck austria. The illyrians must have benn there prior to the celtic migration. then again the celts and illyrians mixed very easily in pannonia and noricum to name just 2 areas.

would the celts have any "neighbourly" traces of similar DNA ?

Actually, in my opinion, it just makes little sense: people talk about Bronze Age urns there, these were part of the Urnfield Culture, and an association explicitly with the Illyrians is somewhat speculative in my opinion.

Beyond that, it's even more speculative to ponder about the DNA.
 
Actually, in my opinion, it just makes little sense: people talk about Bronze Age urns there, these were part of the Urnfield Culture, and an association explicitly with the Illyrians is somewhat speculative in my opinion.

Beyond that, it's even more speculative to ponder about the DNA.


this site disputes what you say

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf
 

What? :startled: It says a lot (and a lot that I absolutely disagree with, for instance the idea that the Cimbri were Celtic!), but it nowhere talks about associating bronze age urns in Austria or Bavaria with the Illyrians. Sorry, nope.

In any case, Illyrian name evidence only extends around the approximate area of modern Croatia/Bosnia. It also stands to reason that the Pannonians, who inhabited the basin of the same name before the Celts arrived, were related with the Illyrians. However, if you go further north or west, there is no Illyrian name evidence whatsoever.

Also, to be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there.
 
Also, to be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there.

I am trying to figure if there is a link with the historical settlements, graves and potteries of illyrians in austria ( innsbruck ) with the celtic migration there. A link with either DNA , linguistically or whatever.
The only link or "union" between these people seems to be in Pannonia and Noricum. the scordisci and taurisci tribes to name just 2.

It is a well known fact that a common language changes from one border of that language to the opposite border. As an example , even in the small area of the Venetian republic around the end of the 18th century ( and it is still current) there are 7 dialects of the ventian language. granted 95% is the same, but this is due to the size of the linguistic area in question.
In the ancient world, a celt from brittany would have a greater percentage of difference with a celt from austria. If we consider this to be true, then the illyrian and celtic unions would have formed/created a variation to the language of the celts as well as a mix of peoples via marriages or purely from settlements.

If illyrians where in innsbruck in the bronze age and the celts migrated there, then it would seem that certain strains of DNA would have emerged.

Greek writers , be it myth or fact have associated the illyrians with the celts
 
I am trying to figure if there is a link with the historical settlements, graves and potteries of illyrians in austria ( innsbruck ) with the celtic migration there. A link with either DNA , linguistically or whatever.
The only link or "union" between these people seems to be in Pannonia and Noricum. the scordisci and taurisci tribes to name just 2.

Have you considered the possibility that the link you gave declared the bronze age urns ad-hoc as "Illyrian"? I'm saying that primarily because. A lot of older literature tries to link western Hallstatt with the Celts and eastern Hallstatt with the Illyrians, however I think that this doesn't hold up in any way.

It is a well known fact that a common language changes from one border of that language to the opposite border. As an example , even in the small area of the Venetian republic around the end of the 18th century ( and it is still current) there are 7 dialects of the ventian language. granted 95% is the same, but this is due to the size of the linguistic area in question.
In the ancient world, a celt from brittany would have a greater percentage of difference with a celt from austria. If we consider this to be true, then the illyrian and celtic unions would have formeed a variation to the language as well as a mix of peoples via marriages or purely from settlements.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

If illyrians where in innsbruck in the bronze age and the celts migrated there, then it would seem that certain strains of DNA would have emerged.

This is extremely speculative, and I have no idea how you would try to test this. Especially, it's impossible to say what language the Bronze Age population of said area spoke. However, it's clear that by the time that the region is mentioned by Mediterranean writers, it's firmly Celtic.

So, it's also pretty unclear if you could already speak of an "Illyrian" language to begin with in the Bronze Age, and it doesn't help that the language is only poorly attested.

Greek writers , be it myth or fact have associated the illyrians with the celts

Well, it's clear that the Celtc invaded the western Balkans and partially absorbed the local Illyrian tribes.

What also eludes me is what this has to do with the thread, anyways.
 
R1b1b2a1b4. Wow, I can't believe how deep R is sublcaded while I'm still stuck with a stupid asterisk next to my haplogroup. :LOL:
 
R1b1b2a1b4. Wow, I can't believe how deep R is sublcaded while I'm still stuck with a stupid asterisk next to my haplogroup. :LOL:

Although, to be fair, I1* is only something like 1500 years older than R1b1b2a1b4 in terms of TMRCA. R1b in Europe has a really nice tree structure... Haplogroup I is much more well-pruned.
 
Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

Examples:

Zorna : big basket
Kratta: normal basket
Hafa: pot
Hag: fence
Hagga: bull
Wadel: tail
Buzzeli: baby

Have anyone an explanation for these words.
Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?


yes
Kratta can be conected with Greek κρατηρ krater a big enough pottery to place goods
Hagga bull can be conected with Greek Αγελας agelas cow
Hafa can be conected with Greek Κοφινος (basket made by branches) English coffin

Zorna I don't know if is connected with Soros Σωρος (Stock pile)


Thank you how yes no for your response.

So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

Hag: fence is possibly germanic

Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



I can give some more special swabian words:

Zinka: nose
Beig: heap of wood
Häs: clothes

schira: put wood on a fire
triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
motza: little children play with dirt and water

helinga: silent
welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.

motza exist in Greek, as μουντζουρα muntzur-a
mutzura is any tide in the skin, when i play or work with mud or coals i get mutzures

I don't know if triala is connected with Greek trella Τρελλα (mad)
τρελλος trellos is the any kind of brain not contact with logic,
people that can't drive food to mouth
or no reason puking food people considered trelloi

from the above
Krater
Kofinos
Agelas
exist in ancient Greek

mutzura is a public word

Kofinos is after an ancient metric system
the choinix or phoinix was a metric system to measure grain.
the basket that contain 1 choinix is kochinos or kofinos
 
Well, it's clear that the Celtc invaded the western Balkans and partially absorbed the local Illyrian tribes.

who initally absorbed who ?

livy says
(Rhetia Vindelici ipsi sunt Liburni).
Liburnian kingdoms were Rhetia and Vindelicia. Clearly a man who saw the people in his life time.

granted the vindelici are G2 while the Liburnians are J2 ( same as istrians and people on the venetic coast ) , but since venetic are R - u152 S28 , which is same as istrians and similar to alpine celts we can safely say that there is a high chnace that the Liburnian as per LIVY times where mixed with celts.

An ancient grave test on the corfu people who originally where liburnians , then after Greek would also help..........then again the picenne (tribe of liburnians) in Italy who where neighbours of the celts will as well.
 
who initally absorbed who ?

livy says
(Rhetia Vindelici ipsi sunt Liburni).
Liburnian kingdoms were Rhetia and Vindelicia. Clearly a man who saw the people in his life time.

Livy did make a few other conflicting statements. As I said, the main reason he may have considered them "Liburnians" was due to their geographic location: they weren't living in Gaul. As I stated before, the Vindelicians, without a doubt, were Celts. They were archaeologically part of the core Hallstatt area, and if you look at their tribal names and town names, there is also no doubt it that they were a Celtic people. But, let me take you through this with some examples:

Vindelici
Vindo- ("white"), compare Old Irish "Finn" and Welsh "Gwyn".
-licos ("rock", "slab"), compare Irish "Leac", Welsh "Llech", Breton "Lec'h"

Also take a look at the subtribes:

- Licates (also "rock", see above, also the Lech river - "Licca" in Latin, which would have been the "rocky river")

- Brigantes
"Briga" ("elevation", "climax" - also "castle") compare Irish "Brigh", Welsh "Brig".
There were also tribes of a similar name in Britain, Galicia and Ireland.

town names:

- Abodiacum ("Idle river")
"Abona" ("River"), compare Old Irish "Ab", Welsh "Afon"
"Diacus" ("idle", "dull"), compare Breton "Diegus"

- Artobriga ("bear castle")
"Artos" ("Bear"), compare Old Irish "Art", Welsh "Arth", Breton "Arzh"

- "Cambodunum" ("slope fort")
"Cambos" ("slope"), compare Irish "Céim", Welsh "Cam"
"Dunon" ("fort", "town"), compare Irish "Dún", Welsh "Dinas"

granted the vindelici are G2 while the Liburnians are J2 ( same as istrians and people on the venetic coast ) , but since venetic are R - u152 S28 , which is same as istrians and similar to alpine celts we can safely say that there is a high chnace that the Liburnian as per LIVY times where mixed with celts.

No offense, but you're making too many conjectures here, especially in regard for ad-hoc assigning certain Haplogroups to certain people. Haplogroup G2 is, as has been shown, Neolithic in age. It stands to reason that G2 had a roughly similar setup to today (that is, higher frequencies in mountainous areas) since the Chalcolithic. It is similar with J2. Both Haplogroups predate the ethnic groups in question by multiple millennia, so they are pretty unlikely to be of any help here.

Regarding R1b-U152, it was in my opinion already spread around by the Urnfield Culture. This means that the pattern we see today is the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Specifically, I would think that the pre-Etruscan population of central-northern Italy, the northern Iberians in Catalonia and the people of the Lusatian Culture were all carriers of R1b-U152.

An ancient grave test on the corfu people who originally where liburnians , then after Greek would also help..........then again the picenne (tribe of liburnians) in Italy who where neighbours of the celts will as well.

It would be interesting to have ancient DNA samples, yes, but that is generally the case. More smaples of anything. (y)
 
Livy did make a few other conflicting statements. As I said, the main reason he may have considered them "Liburnians" was due to their geographic location: they weren't living in Gaul. As I stated before, the Vindelicians, without a doubt, were Celts. They were archaeologically part of the core Hallstatt area, and if you look at their tribal names and town names, there is also no doubt it that they were a Celtic people. But, let me take you through this with some examples:

Vindelici
Vindo- ("white"), compare Old Irish "Finn" and Welsh "Gwyn".
-licos ("rock", "slab"), compare Irish "Leac", Welsh "Llech", Breton "Lec'h"

Also take a look at the subtribes:

- Licates (also "rock", see above, also the Lech river - "Licca" in Latin, which would have been the "rocky river")

- Brigantes
"Briga" ("elevation", "climax" - also "castle") compare Irish "Brigh", Welsh "Brig".
There were also tribes of a similar name in Britain, Galicia and Ireland.

town names:

- Abodiacum ("Idle river")
"Abona" ("River"), compare Old Irish "Ab", Welsh "Afon"
"Diacus" ("idle", "dull"), compare Breton "Diegus"

- Artobriga ("bear castle")
"Artos" ("Bear"), compare Old Irish "Art", Welsh "Arth", Breton "Arzh"

- "Cambodunum" ("slope fort")
"Cambos" ("slope"), compare Irish "Céim", Welsh "Cam"
"Dunon" ("fort", "town"), compare Irish "Dún", Welsh "Dinas"



No offense, but you're making too many conjectures here, especially in regard for ad-hoc assigning certain Haplogroups to certain people. Haplogroup G2 is, as has been shown, Neolithic in age. It stands to reason that G2 had a roughly similar setup to today (that is, higher frequencies in mountainous areas) since the Chalcolithic. It is similar with J2. Both Haplogroups predate the ethnic groups in question by multiple millennia, so they are pretty unlikely to be of any help here.

Regarding R1b-U152, it was in my opinion already spread around by the Urnfield Culture. This means that the pattern we see today is the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Specifically, I would think that the pre-Etruscan population of central-northern Italy, the northern Iberians in Catalonia and the people of the Lusatian Culture were all carriers of R1b-U152.



It would be interesting to have ancient DNA samples, yes, but that is generally the case. More smaples of anything. (y)


?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe
 
?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe

Actually, that hardly works. It's ultimately probably derived from the PIE word for "white":

- "Alba" was the name of Scotland, which is probably a reflection of earlier "Albion", which was used for the whole of Britain.
- There was a Gallaecian tribe named the Albiones.
- There is also Latin "Albus" ("white")
- Cognates also exist in Germanic: Danish Alf, Swedish Älva ("fairy"), German Alb ("Elf", "spirit") - also "Albtraum" ("nightmare", but literally "elven/spirit dream"), English Elf.

- Note that there was also a Caucasian Albania, which was very likely a Roman exonym however since the Caucasian Albanians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

Other than obviously Indo-European, you do not get very far with that.
 
Actually, that hardly works. It's ultimately probably derived from the PIE word for "white":

- "Alba" was the name of Scotland, which is probably a reflection of earlier "Albion", which was used for the whole of Britain.
- There was a Gallaecian tribe named the Albiones.
- There is also Latin "Albus" ("white")
- Cognates also exist in Germanic: Danish Alf, Swedish Älva ("fairy"), German Alb ("Elf", "spirit") - also "Albtraum" ("nightmare", but literally "elven/spirit dream"), English Elf.

- Note that there was also a Caucasian Albania, which was very likely a Roman exonym however since the Caucasian Albanians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

Other than obviously Indo-European, you do not get very far with that.

LOL :LOL: as you would know from prevoius other threads , i do not beleive in word association when it comes to naming of people.

look below, more celtic -illyrian unions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

celti mountain men below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

considering aquileia is in friuli, which borders istria, the celts got down into the adriatic sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weer
more illyrians in western austria

I do not know why you fight this, is it because you think the illyrians are slavs?
Well they are not slavs, they are there own people, who if they banded together could have ruled half of europe.:)
Only 2 ancient tribes in europe banded and they ruled - macedonians and Romans
 
LOL :LOL: as you would know from prevoius other threads , i do not beleive in word association when it comes to naming of people.

Well, that makes no sense. What sense would it make for the Romans to give the (in your opinion, Illyrian) Vindelici Celtic names?! That makes absolutely no sense. Specifically, the problem is, once you ditch all linguistic evidence and ad-hoc claim "People X were actually part of ethnic group Y", without any basis, you enter the realm of fantasy.

look below, more celtic -illyrian unions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

celti mountain men below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

considering aquileia is in friuli, which borders istria, the celts got down into the adriatic sea.

Yes, sure, Celtic tribes settled in Illyria and mixed with the Illyrians. Where is the point? This proves in no way that the Vindelici were actually Illyrians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weer
more illyrians in western austria

You trust a single, out-of-context mentioning in a Wikipedia article more than well-established, consistent etymologies for a variety of names that come from the same area? :startled:

And actually, you totally get it wrong:

As I stated above, it's not just the people's names themselves, it's also town names and river names. If you go into Illyria, with exception of those places (adjacent to the Pannonian basin) that were actually settled by Celtic tribes, you have otherwise no Celtic name evidence in Illyria.

Conversely, how can you argue that the Hallstatt Culture was actually Illyrian (because that is what I think you are trying to argue here) if there's no Illyrian name evidence in Bohemia, Germany north of the Danube, Switzerland or eastern France? It makes no sense!

I do not know why you fight this, is it because you think the illyrians are slavs?

Silly, the Illyrians were obviously no Slavs (How yes no would claim that, I am pretty sure, since he also claimed that the Boii and the Sea Peoples were actually Slavs :LOL: ), but that's not the point (I also wonder where the idea that I'm somehow Slavophobic came from - it's not my fault that evidence for the Slavic peoples before the migration period is scanty at best). The reason why I "fight" this as you call it is because it makes no sense what you say. Conversely, I must genuinely wonder why you apparently wish the Vindelici to be Illyrians, despite evidence pointing to the contrary? :unsure:

Well they are not slavs, they are there own people, who if they banded together could have ruled half of europe.:)
Only 2 ancient tribes in europe banded and they ruled - macedonians and Romans

What? Now we are entering the realm of alternate history... :confused:
 
You trust a single, out-of-context mentioning in a Wikipedia article more than well-established, consistent etymologies for a variety of names that come from the same area? :startled:

And actually, you totally get it wrong:


Conversely, how can you argue that the Hallstatt Culture was actually Illyrian (because that is what I think you are trying to argue here) if there's no Illyrian name evidence in Bohemia, Germany north of the Danube, Switzerland or eastern France? It makes no sense!

when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.
You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

You seem to think there was nothing prior to the celts in the times before the hallstatt culture, which I find astonishing from you , being a learned person.



Silly, the Illyrians were obviously no Slavs (How yes no would claim that, I am pretty sure, since he also claimed that the Boii and the Sea Peoples were actually Slavs :LOL: ), but that's not the point (I also wonder where the idea that I'm somehow Slavophobic came from - it's not my fault that evidence for the Slavic peoples before the migration period is scanty at best). The reason why I "fight" this as you call it is because it makes no sense what you say. Conversely, I must genuinely wonder why you apparently wish the Vindelici to be Illyrians, despite evidence pointing to the contrary? :unsure:

How yes and no claims all of europe is slavic but thats him, I never ever beleived the slavs where anywhere near europe at least till the end of the western Roman empire.
I am stating many many scholars who claim the vindelici where illyrian. But I do have doubts especially the genetics, BUT, genetics can be altered or watered down due to mass migrations of peoples and thats what I am referring to.

Can we measure the genetics of the eastern alps?, is there a link ?


What? Now we are entering the realm of alternate history... :confused:

Name the ancient tribes that united to rule as a confereration and not fight between each other, because the tribal system was strong.
Illyric
celtic
gallic
venetic
Finnic
Nordic
Pictish
Sabellic
Hellenic
Doric
Thracian
etc etc
Iwhat I was referring to was that with the number of people and tribes which was in illyrian lands, they could have dominated a large portion of eastern europe
 

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