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Thread: Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

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    Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA



    Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
    No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

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    Greetings,
    for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

    1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

    2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

    Now,
    It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

    Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
    But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

    There exist few hypotheses.
    Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
    Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
    Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
    You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

    "Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
    eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

    A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
    Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
    And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    Greetings,
    for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

    1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

    2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

    Now,
    It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

    Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
    But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

    There exist few hypotheses.
    Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
    Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
    Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
    You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

    "Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
    eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

    A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
    Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
    And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.
    Good morning.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
    Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
    The member "how yes now" wrote about Serbs colonizing Iberia and Northwest Africa. This kind of imagination can be interesting only to those who consider history just one more fairy tale. And this is were you have the point - people do enjoy reading fairy tales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    Greetings,
    for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

    1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

    2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

    Now,
    It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

    Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
    But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

    There exist few hypotheses.
    Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
    Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
    Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
    You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

    "Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
    eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

    A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
    Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
    And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.
    looool
    'how yes no', is it you??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    looool
    'how yes no', is it you??
    nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia



    Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
    But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.
    Serbs DNA is same as in other Slavs dominantly determined by R1a and I2a2, just ratio of I2a2 and R1a is opposite, which indicates that tyhey were among I2a2 contributers in Slavic people...

    As for language, I believe that Slavic language origin from Serbs



    A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
    Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
    And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.
    I do wonder how can someone say "don't hesitate to ask" instead of me... perhaps idea is to discredit my writing by taking identity that everyone will think is me.... I guess that little Croat boy think he is very smart....

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia
    You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
    Let it be consolation to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
    Let it be consolation to you.
    yes, well I did propose some quite exotic ideas.... e.g. relation to sea peoples...

    there are two things to distinguish:
    one is Serb tribal name that seems to be very old and have passed mostly among I haplogroup tribes in different shapes (as in Swedes, Suebi, Sorbs, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians... also possible matches Scordisci, Serdi...)
    and second is actual ancestors of Serbs of today....

    e.g. Pasthun Sarbans matching Seneca's arc of Serians from northwest China to India, coupled with name Sarbans used for Serbs by some Byzantine historians, and with Pastun Sarbans carrying clear mark of haplogroup I in non haplogroup I part of Asia, made me conclude that proto-Serbs are offspring of Serians mentioned by Seneca...

    but according to
    "Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with
    nearby regions - Khaled K Abu-Amero*1, Ali Hellani2, Ana M González3, Jose M Larruga3,Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4"
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

    it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen (where one would expect offspring of Serians of Red sea) and that haplogroup I in Pastun Sarbans is I* and not I2a2

    which indicates the direction of spread of haplogroup I, was probably from Persia to several branches: arc of Seres, Asia minor and Caucasus...and from last two directions to Europe... amazing is that tribal name for so distantly related people is preserved....

    I still think that proto-Serbs origin from Serians of Europe, just their link to Serians of Red sea, and to Serians of arc from Serica in northwest China to India is much earlier in time than I have guessed...as being of haplogroup I* makes Serians of Asia very distantly related people with same tribal name....

    sea peoples Sherden (after whom the lake in Egypt carries name Serbonian bog / Serbonis/Sirbonis) are most likely related to either Sardinians or Serians of Red sea... and their relation to proto-Serbs of Balkan is very distant...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen
    Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...

    And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...
    And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!
    hey, don't joke... :)

    idea I had is that Serians of Red sea (Sabeans/Sheba) were offspring of more northern Serians who settled coasts of Red sea during sea peoples invasion (Sherden whose name resulted in Serbonian bog toponym in Egypt)...
    but since quoted work indicates that there is no haplogroup I in Arabian peninsula, either this is wrong theory, or they didnot leave much offspring, or sampling didnot catch area where they offspring lives...

    a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I.... besides it is even possible that Arab tribal name might be derived from same root with losing 'S' in the beginning of the word...

    if tribal name related to Serbs is really ancient old, than it is not really good marker for explaining more recent history of Serbs.....


    anyway, I will try later to summarize the part of ideas about more recent origin of Serbs of Balkan that seems to hold well...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b1 Slavic South

    Ethnic group
    Slavic Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    hey, don't joke... :)



    a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I....
    If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
    What to say, unless: Bon voyage!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
    What to say, unless: Bon voyage!
    that is exactly the point I am making now....

    if tribal name has ancient old origin (as in carried by some of IJ peoples), than it makes no sense to use it to reconstruct more recent history of Balkan Serbs whose I2a2 members are just a small leaf on that tree of people who originates from IJ....

    so, we should follow first known historical mention of Serbs and try to go a bit backwards from there... e.g. towards link between Slavs (Sloveni) and Veneti...

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    or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k
    nope, maybe related to proto-Croats or Khorasan /Khwarezm

    don't spam here.... it's not funny..

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    Serbia
    I1 6,5%
    I2a 34,5%
    I2b 0,5%
    R1a 15%
    R1b 7%
    G2a 1,5%
    J2 6,5%
    J1 0,5%
    E1b1b 20,5%
    T 3%
    Q 1%
    N1c1 2%

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Serbia
    I1 6,5%
    I2a 34,5%
    I2b 0,5%
    R1a 15%
    R1b 7%
    G2a 1,5%
    J2 6,5%
    J1 0,5%
    E1b1b 20,5%
    T 3%
    Q 1%
    N1c1 2%
    DejaVu

    I told you that there is new researching for Serbia, Mirabal et al (2010):
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    Serbia

    I2a2 38,5%
    I1 7,8%
    I2b1 1.67%

    R1a 14,5%
    R1b 4,5%

    E1b1b1 17,3%

    J1 0.6%
    J2a 3.3%
    J2b 1.7%

    G2a 2,2%

    (You can see, total I in Serbia is 47,97%.)

    And I will show that Macedonians (FYROM) are the closest with Serbs according to the analysis.

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    Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

    Continue posting about that, rest is irrelevant.

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    DejaVu
    One part I already wrote on another topic but as a prelude to the final image.

    You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
    I1 7,8% __________ No data
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,0____________6,3%
    G2a 2,2% _________ No data

    Serbia census 2001
    Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

    Macedonia FYROM census 2001
    Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

    Comments

    Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia.

    The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

    If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


    Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html

    Labels are as follows:

    GRE: Greece
    SER: Serbia
    SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
    HER: Herzegovina
    BOS: Bosnia
    ALB: Albania
    KAL: Kosovo Albanians
    SLO: Slovenia
    CRO: Croatia
    UKR: Ukraine
    TUR: Turkey
    HUN: Hungary
    ROM: Romania
    ITA: Italy

    You can see his results on map.



    I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

    The differences are as follows:

    SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

    If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

    If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

    If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


    Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia.


    In the original Dieckens paper Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

    Today it is fashionable to declare themselves and look for some non-existent roots away from Serbia because it is such a policy, and OK, all this is somewhat understandable.

    But science is immune to man-made efforts to make someone other than who is, so sooner or later everything comes everything falls into right place.

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    CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
    I1 7,8% __________ No data
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,0____________6,3%
    G2a 2,2% _________ No data

    Serbia 89.8%?
    Macedonia 79.8%?
    You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?


    The original from Mirabal 2010
    http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index....l_et_al._(2010)
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/abstract

    Serbia
    I2a 38.54%
    R1b 4.5%
    R1a 14.5%
    E1b1b 17.3%


    The original from Pericic 2005
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg

    ALL THE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE MACEDONIANS, ARE FROM ETHNIC MACEDONIANS AND SAME FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full


    Y-DNA haplogroups in European populations
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe


    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
    "I have decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations. Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

    GARRICK, ARE YOU CLAIMING HAPLOGROUP I2A2 OR ANY KIND OF HAPLOGROUP I AS SERBIAN?
    WHERE DID YOU GET THE GENETIC STATISTICS?
    CAN YOU LINK THE SOURCE TO PERICIC 2005 AND MIRABAL 2010?
    Last edited by DejaVu; 30-01-11 at 15:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.
    DejaVu
    All the information I have given are completely true that everyone can check.

    Pericic et al

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

    Page 4

    Macedonian
    IE BaltoSlavic
    R1b 5,1%
    R1a 15,2%
    I2a2 29,1 %
    E1b1b1 24,1%
    J2 6,3%

    You can see Dieckens analysis (2005) based on data Pericic et al and other relevant research at the time:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html



    After that there were other research I cited the differences.

    Probably you are confused about the Mirabal et al (2010) where is the rest of the data.

    Because I have a whole article; on the Internet is only available part.

    But you can look at the topics were given the results

    www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689&page=4

    DejaVu
    Many people in Macedonia FYROM (I am quite often in Skopje) know that the Serbs and Macedonians FYROM are close peoples.

    And trust me, when they hear someone speaks Serbian exactly see them to cheer.

    The problem is not people but politics.

    The politics is that of the Slavic Macedonians asked to renounce who they are and to embrace what you have never been, history of other nations, and this is what nature can not last forever, and you will see a time will come when you and I will run a lot constructive discussions.


    And as far as I haplogroups in the Balkans, I have never written that it is only Serbian.

    Peak is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia is the second and third in percentage is Croatia and I was giving this information in the other topic, if you want I can repeat.

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    WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
    I1 7,8% __________ No data
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,0____________6,3%
    G2a 2,2% _________ No data

    Serbia 89.8%?
    Macedonia 79.8%?
    You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




    AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
    I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,6%____________12,7%
    G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
    N 3,3% _______________ 0%
    L 0,6% _______________ 0%

    Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
    Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
    I1 7,8% __________ No data
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,0____________6,3%
    G2a 2,2% _________ No data

    Serbia 89.8%?
    Macedonia 79.8%?
    You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




    AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

    Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

    Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

    I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
    I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
    R1a 14,5_________15,2%
    R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    J2 5,6%____________12,7%
    G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
    N 3,3% _______________ 0%
    L 0,6% _______________ 0%

    Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
    Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html
    DejaVu
    Even better, you added missed.

    And is there any difference?

    Of course that does not exist and it is true that the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.

    Probably you not carefully read Dieckens analysis.

    Dieckens
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
    "Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

    Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


    DejaVu
    You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the key issues.
    Last edited by Garrick; 30-01-11 at 19:42.

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    PAGE 4: Summarized Percent Frequencies of R1b, R1a, I1b* (xM26), E3b1 and J2e.
    Where is the rest of the haplogroups?

    Quote Originally Posted by dejavu View Post
    why do you post fake results? Are you blind?

    serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

    serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

    i2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
    i1 7,8% __________ no data
    r1a 14,5_________15,2%
    r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    j2 5,0____________6,3%
    g2a 2,2% _________ no data

    serbia 89.8%?
    macedonia 79.8%?
    you know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




    and here is the real results.

    serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

    serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

    i2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
    i1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
    r1a 14,5_________15,2%
    r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
    e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
    j2 5,6%____________12,7%
    g2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
    n 3,3% _______________ 0%
    l 0,6% _______________ 0%

    serbia 94,3% total - serbs
    macedonia (fyrom) 96,3% total - ethnic macedonians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/y-dna_h...oups_in_europe
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/f2.large.jpg
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html
    The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?
    ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?

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    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
    "Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

    Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
    Sklavinia(i) (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:
    • The Serbs became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi) and eventually became independent.
    • The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians.
    The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi and Antes. Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor. Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
    In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns).
    In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').

    The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)



    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
    Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
    Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

    But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?
    Last edited by DejaVu; 30-01-11 at 18:58.

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    Serbian history

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs
    White Serbia or Bojka (Serbian: Белa Србиja; Archaic: Бојка, Greek: Boiki), is the mythical homeland of the ancestors of the Serbs, of the White Serbs (Serbian: Бели Срби, Beli Srbi).
    The area adjacent to White Serbia was known as White Croatia, where the Croats trace their origin. White Serbia and its ethnic designates, the White Serbs, could be interpreted through attributes such as "the unbaptized" or "pagan" (Pre- Christian), according to the De administrando imperio.



    The term White Serbia (Bela Srbija) is connected with that of Belarus (White Rus), in this case it may refer to it being an unbaptized land, in relation to the Serbs of the Balkans who were Christian.
    Bojka, (Boiki, derived from the Proto-Slavic *bojь. = battle, war, fight) may be connected with the ethnographic group of Ukrainians, the Boyko, and the Celtic tribe of Boii, who in the 2nd century BC dwelled around the Danube.
    The White Serbs formed Rascia.






    The location of White Serbia has been disputed. It has been described as:


    Early Serb state during the reign of Zhupan Vlastimir, c. 840 AD


    House of Vlastimirović
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...timirovi%C4%87

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