Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

[Shetop]

I also readed all post in thread about Serbian and Croatian Sarmatian origins , and havent find anything that would change my maind , it acctualy strenghtened my views , so if you can post reasons why do you believe I2a2 is Slavic.

I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.

[Bodin]

I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.

Point of any discusion I believe to be is to take another viewpoint on your own theories , to reinforce or abandone your theory based on facts , and sharing of facts is crucial for that . And I would quote Aristotelus : " Only fool never changes its oppinion ". So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue). So there is possibility you can say something that would change my mind.
I believe Sarmatian theory not to be based only on a name , there is also a lot of similarities ( Slavs usualy lived on banks of big rivers -Serbs and Croats settled on Dinaric mountains , Serbs and Croatische national clotes do not resemble Slavic- exept in parts of Voyvodina and Slavonia but do resemble clotes of some parts of Iran , Slavic main deity was Perun - thundergod , while ancestor of all Serbs - by legend and main deity of Serbs is Daybog - one that brings culture , similar to German Wotan , some time Serbs and Slavs call him Voden ,...)
Egzactly Slavic theory is based solely on languague , now I going to use you own proof against you " it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language " , than how could it happened that R1a ( five times more numerous than I2a2 in Slavs) wouldnt preserve they own languague , instead they speacking I2a2 langugue.

Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .
Thanks for answering

[Goga]

Here is the list of ancient Iranian peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

According to this list Lazyges clan was part of the Samartian tribe. Lazyges folks lived not far from the Balkans.

Here is the map where you can find this Lazyges clan.

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6451/romanempire.jpg

[Shetop]

So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue).

I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.

[Bodin]

Here is the list of ancient Iranian peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

According to this list Lazyges clan was part of the Samartian tribe. Lazyges folks lived not far from the Balkans.

Here is the map where you can find this Lazyges clan.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5606/sarmatae.png

Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .

[Bodin]

I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.

We have discussion to get to some evidence.
French get they name from ruling class of Franks , it is first name for Austrasia ( Frankonia in Deutschland - named after Franks , and they mainly descendants of Franks ) and Neustria ( Ill d France - aeria around Paris , also mainly populated by descendants of Franks ) , and only later it has spreaded on whole France state.
English get they name by Angli tribe , and they genetic contribution in England is not small at all - R1b - U106 is also Germanic , not only I1 and I2b .
Hungarians get they name by Turkic word Ungor/Ugor which mean 10 arows representing union of 7 Magyar tribes and 3 Kabiri tribes ( Kabiri- part of Khazars ) , they call themselves Magyars and state Magyarorsag . Yes they have low N frequency , but original Magyars were probably partially Q , R1a ( mainly Turkic R1a ) , and J2 from Khorazm ( also Turkic) . And Kabiri mostly R1a ( Slavic/ Scythian) , G2a and J2 .
Bulgarians get they name to Volga river , and us to be called like that since they are entered history . I dont know they ever changed they name , if you know please share , I would like to know that .
Russians get they name by rulling class of Varingians ( Ruotsi is Finnic name for Sweden ) , or by Roxolans .
I believe they just changed they languague , like it has hapened on all of Near East- Syrria , Lebanon , ... and North Africa - Egypt , Morroco , Algeria ,... they all abandoned they languagues and now speacking Arabian.
Thanks for answering.

[Goga]

Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .

thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Mitanni, Kassites, Guti, Corduchi and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like; Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians and that Corduchi were related to Scythians

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.

[Bodin]

thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Corduene, Mitanni, Kassites, Guti and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians.

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.

Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answering

[Goga]

Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answering

Serbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.

[Goga]

People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/...lonaise02.html

[Goga]

"Ancient Sarmatian traditions survived in Poland for a long time. A belief in the Sarmatian origin of Poland was widespread among the Polish Nobility"[34].

http://cgca.net/coglinks/origin/East....htm#_ftnref34

[Goga]

I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.

[Bodin]

Serbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.

Serbs have biger percent of I2a2-Din , Croats have even biger 42% , and in Herzegovina ( east part are mostly Serbs , and west mostly Croats ) there is 71% . There is probably some variations in I2a2 levels in Kurdistan to , if you or someone else has data please post . But there is more Kurds ( 40-50 millions ) and only 12 millions Serbs.
Yes in Midle Ages Polish nobility use to claim they are descedants of Sarmatians , maybe they were descendants of White Croats ( Bielochorbatoi) , I dont know that is the best I could think of . Also nobility of Grand Dutchy of Litva use to claim they are descendants of Saramatians , and there is 6% of I2a2 in Litva , and neighboring and also Baltic state of Lithuania has only 1% of I2a2 .
Thanks for answering

[Bodin]

People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/...lonaise02.html

Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .

[Bodin]

'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.

I had just readed your article about Szlachta and there is few things I have noticed: dvor is also word thet Serbs use to describe they houses in old times , aldo word for house is kuća and dvor has a meaning of palace .
There was 15% of nobility( szlachta) in Poland in XIX century , in Midle Ages in ex Yugoslavia lands there was about 5% of nobility , but in Herzegovina there was about 20% of nobility .
In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")

[Goga]

Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .

Wow, thanks. Your knowledge about this is huge!

[Goga]

In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")

Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

[Alan]

Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.

[Bodin]

Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

Niiiiceeee!!!!!!

[Bodin]

In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.

Well donkey / idiot is also Niiiiiceee!!!!!

[Goga]

In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.

Well, I can't write Kurdish. So maybe you're right.

We say gur, sounds more like between gur and gör (between u and ö). I used the whole "Kurdish" word as an example to find the roots of that word.

Maybe it's a children variant to call Erdogan an idiot (Kerdogan), but I mean really Kirdogan, more like d*ckh**d.

[how yes no 3]

saying in Serbs "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"









Pasthun Sarbans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbans







(white) Sart people from Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart






Sarta people - northwest China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

[how yes no 3]

actually, I was probably wrong all along......

latest research shows:
1) that haplogroup I in Afghanistan is in fact I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic tribes...so this may be remains of some prehistoric "drang nach Osten"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0034288

2) this I2 is not found in Pashtuns who are considered to origin from Scythians and are R1a dominant people, but 2 in Hazara who dominantly origin from soldiers of Genghis Kan and 1 in Tajik sample...


for me this is indication that Serica, north of Tibet was I2b1, because Serica stretched into Tajikistan and it was likely subdued on start of Genghis Kan conquest....hence people from there were used as soldiers in Afganistan leaving Hazara as their offspring (apparently according to preserved tradition the word Hazara comes from number 1000 which was number of people in units that were left as settlements to rule the country)

so Serica was probably related to I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic people
=> same holds for modern Sart people who are descended from Serica people.....




regarding 2) it is rather low number of samples and it is not clear where 49 samples for Pasthuns come from (whether they include some Pashtun Sarbans but they probably do as Sarbans are largest tribal group of Pashtuns) but still based on that sample Pasthuns are 50% R1a and no haplogroup I, Sarbans are largest tribe of Pashtuns so probably roughly the same...


this suggest that I could be wrong all along with proposed links between tribes and haplogroups

[Gosh]

actually, I was probably wrong all along......

Finally, I'll have to agree with you ;)

[how yes no 3]

maybe I was not wrong...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=395850&viewfull=1#post395850