Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

[Bodin]

Bodin, I do not want to sound impolite, I would entitle you to reformat your post because it's very awkward to read.

I would tray

 

[sparkey]

So there is posibility it camed after Hunic invasions?

You mean I2a-Din? The overall TMRCA is about 2500 years ago, so it's possible I suppose. Certainly, we want to focus on the Classical and Medieval periods to understand it fully.

 

[Shetop]

It is very dificult to explain how so manny people at all speak Slavic , because linguistics find Slavic to keep a lot of ancient characteristics which showing it was spoked by a small group of peoples during a long period .

Well I have to say I disagree with your theories.

As I and some other people already have written, I believe I2a1b1a is related to emergence of Slavic language around Pripyat Marshes.

Original Serbian tribe may have indeed been Sarmatian (Serboi), but it would only mean that some small group of people of Sarmatian origin (not related to I2a1b1a) transfered their name on much larger Slavic and other groups thus creating Serbian nation.

 

[Bodin]

You mean I2a-Din? The overall TMRCA is about 2500 years ago, so it's possible I suppose. Certainly, we want to focus on the Classical and Medieval periods to understand it fully.

Finaly someone agreed with me , if you look on my previous posts you will se I was focusing on Medieval and Classical periods , trying to prove that I2a2-Din couldnt be Illyrian . Thanks for answering

 

[Bodin]

Well I have to say I disagree with your theories.

As I and some other people already have written, I believe I2a1b1a is related to emergence of Slavic language around Pripyat Marshes.

Original Serbian tribe may have indeed been Sarmatian (Serboi), but it would only mean that some small group of people of Sarmatian origin (not related to I2a1b1a) transfered their name on much larger Slavic and other groups thus creating Serbian nation.

So you trying to say that all Slavic nations Russians , Poles , ... who are mainly R1a are acctualy not Slavic ( I2a1b1a ) , and only Serbs and Croats are Slavic , aldo they ruling class is olso not Slavic but Sarmatian -Serboi and Heruatai .
Maybe your theory is true but like S.Holmes say simplest is usualy true
How do you explain this :
1)Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
2)North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
3) 25% of I2a2-Din in Kurds
There is no proof any of these aerias was settled by Slavs

 

[Shetop]

So you trying to say that all Slavic nations Russians , Poles , ... who are mainly R1a are acctualy not Slavic ( I2a1b1a ) , and only Serbs and Croats are Slavic , aldo they ruling class is olso not Slavic but Sarmatian -Serboi and Heruatai .
Maybe your theory is true but like S.Holmes say simplest is usualy true
How do you explain this :
1)Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
2)North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
3) 25% of I2a2-Din in Kurds
There is no proof any of these aerias was settled by Slavs

There is no 25% I2a2-Din in Kurds. You have wrong data.
High percentage in Dagestan also means nothing because we don't no which subclade is it I2a1b1a or not. For example next closest clade to I2a1b1a clade is found in Great Britain and I think nowhere else.

Only one symbol in subclade notation means completely different population. Meaning geographical distribution and different history also. That is of course since the time of their common ancestor. Meaning I2a1b1a could be called Slavic but I2a1b1 can't.

The way you are looking at these issues is not deep enough. But I have to say I had the same problems when I first came in contact with haplogroups and more important their subclades.

 

[sparkey]

Finaly someone agreed with me , if you look on my previous posts you will se I was focusing on Medieval and Classical periods , trying to prove that I2a2-Din couldnt be Illyrian . Thanks for answering

To be clear, I was conceding a possibility rather than agreeing. We're getting down to such minute differences in timeframe and diversity within I2a-Din STR data that it's hard to say if it was principally Illyrian, or resulted from a later Slavic expansion, or what. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans (how yes no had a good post on that here).

Ancient DNA samples of Illyrians would be helpful here.

 

[zanipolo]

What Bodin is trying to say if I understood him correctly is that I2a2 was brought into the balkans by the Sarmatians/slavs and that the Illyrian/balkan area was already R1a

So, while I agree that no marker should be assigned as a cultural marker , example R1a is a slavic marker ????

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

 

[Shetop]

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

I believe Bodin has a point here - Illyrians and other Balkan groups were moving to Italy before Common Era. Magna Graecia is just one example. But compared to E-V13 we don't see enough I2a1b1a or R1a in any of these Italian regions today.

 

[sparkey]

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

Now THAT I find unlikely. If I2a-Din was in the Balkans pre-Bronze Age, then it probably got totally displaced or bottlenecked to a single individual elsewhere circa 2,500 years ago. That, combined with the fact that we've yet to find a Neolithic sample with it in it, makes me think that it was a rare lineage until at least the Classical Age, and wouldn't have really defined any population.

Probably, Neolithic Haplogroup I in the Balkans was mostly proto-I2a1a and maybe something like proto-I2b-ADR... things that have been mostly displaced by modern expanding I2a-Din.

 

[Shetop]

I think this map of Slavic migrations to Balkans (V-VII century) was proposed by one Croatian historian. It could well explain how did I2a1b1a came to Balkans (through Romania):

 

[sparkey]

I think this map of Slavic migrations to Balkans (V-VII century) was proposed by one Croatian historian. It could well explain how did I2a1b1a came to Balkans (through Romania):

Without looking, if this expansion pattern was true, we would expect I2a-Din to increase in frequency Ukraine -> Romania -> Serbia and increase in diversity Serbia -> Romania -> Ukraine. Looking, the frequency pattern seems to hold, although I can't find a diversity analysis for I2a-Din in Romania (not enough data). BUT Ukraine seems to have an interesting diversity hotspot, via Battaglia et al. So, plausible. But if the Illyrian rather than Slavic model is true, are we guaranteed that the migration pattern would be different?

 

[Shetop]

Without looking, if this expansion pattern was true, we would expect I2a-Din to increase in frequency Ukraine -> Romania -> Serbia and increase in diversity Serbia -> Romania -> Ukraine. Looking, the frequency pattern seems to hold, although I can't find a diversity analysis for I2a-Din in Romania (not enough data). BUT Ukraine seems to have an interesting diversity hotspot, via Battaglia et al. So, plausible. But if the Illyrian rather than Slavic model is true, are we guaranteed that the migration pattern would be different?

I recognize you are trying to stick to methods provided by genetic science. I admit that my conclusions are not that "pure". Migration pattern I proposed is a result of several heterogeneous arguments which I find important and beside genetics they are very much based on what I learned from historical science, but also from my interest in ethnographical groups existing in the region.

 

[Bodin]

There is no 25% I2a2-Din in Kurds. You have wrong data.
High percentage in Dagestan also means nothing because we don't no which subclade is it I2a1b1a or not. For example next closest clade to I2a1b1a clade is found in Great Britain and I think nowhere else.

Only one symbol in subclade notation means completely different population. Meaning geographical distribution and different history also. That is of course since the time of their common ancestor. Meaning I2a1b1a could be called Slavic but I2a1b1 can't.

The way you are looking at these issues is not deep enough. But I have to say I had the same problems when I first came in contact with haplogroups and more important their subclades.

there is 20% of I in Kurdistan by Eupedia data and it is I2a2
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
there is also other data that says there is 25% I in Turkic Kurdistan . But what is important there was not Slavic settlement in Asia Minor that I am avare of , and I do know history.
Believe subclade in Dagestan , Abhazia and North Ossetia is same like on Balkans, Moldavia , Romania , Czech , Slovakia, Ukraine and in Kurdistan .
I would ask again because you havent answered me last time , do you saying Russians are not Slavic ( over 50% R1a , no I2a2 -Din ) ? Please answer this time if you
won to give some weight to your theory. I dont understand why do you avoid this answer

 

[Bodin]

What Bodin is trying to say if I understood him correctly is that I2a2 was brought into the balkans by the Sarmatians/slavs and that the Illyrian/balkan area was already R1a

So, while I agree that no marker should be assigned as a cultural marker , example R1a is a slavic marker ????

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

I believe I already asked you to calculate percent of Balkanic population before Hunic migration ( IV century AD ) in today population of Serbia and present score .Please do this time

 

[Shetop]

there is 20% of I in Kurdistan by Eupedia data and it is I2a2
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
there is also other data that says there is 25% I in Turkic Kurdistan . But what is important there was not Slavic settlement in Asia Minor that I am avare of , and I do know history.
Believe subclade in Dagestan , Abhazia and North Ossetia is same like on Balkans, Moldavia , Romania , Czech , Slovakia, Ukraine and in Kurdistan .
I would ask again because you havent answered me last time , do you saying Russians are not Slavic ( over 50% R1a , no I2a2 -Din ) ? Please answer this time if you
won to give some weight to your theory. I dont understand why do you avoid this answer

I'm not avoiding anything.

Sure, Russians are Slavic speaking nation today.
And sure, large part of R1a took part in Slavic ethnogenesis in antiquity. I see no problem in scenario where genetically mixed populations forms linguistically related groups. Same thing can be said for I1 and R-U106 which are both attributed Germanic.

But in antiquity North of Slavic homeland on a huge territory lived Balts and Finno-Ugrians. Where are these people today?

Also there of course is I2a2a-Dinaric among Russians, 15-20%.

And I don't understand why should I believe that "I subclade" found in Dagestan is the same as in Balkans. Because you say so?

 

[Bodin]

http://vigg.academia.edu/KazimaBulayeva/Papers/125870/The_key_role_of_patrilineal_inheritance_in_shaping_the_genetic_variation_of_Dagestan_highlanders
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-9-47.pdf
These abowe show that I is comon in Caucasus, and I2a2 is present only in Southwestern Russia - Sarmatian aerias , ancient Russian sites Vladymir , Ryazan ,... showed even biger percent of R1a up to 80% all of Russia has 10% I2a2 wher did you get 20% :
I2a2 (formerly I1b) is typical of the Dinaric Slavs (Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks). Its highest density is observed around ex-Yugoslavia and Moldova, but it is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Northern Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and southwestern Russia.
This Russian site say that I among Dasgins is actualy I2a2
I2a2 (snp M423) типична для населения юго-восточной Европы. Наиболее высокая плотность — в Далмации (Хорватия) и Боснии-Герцеговине (>50 %). Предполагается, что в этой области на Динарском нагорье эта ветвь и произошла из I2a около 7500 лет назад. Чаще всего гаплогруппа I2a2 встречается среди славянских народов (особенно южнославянских), а также найдена среди румын, молдаван, венгров, южных литовцев, албанцев, греков, жителей северо-востока Италии, в западной Анатолии и на Северном Кавказе.
Hier Serbs , Slovenians and Bulgars are clustered with Lesgins from Dagestan in MDS and rest of Balkanic are not it is small sample but it tell a story :
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/multidimensional-scaling-in-italy.html
Dargins have highest I -58% in whole world after Herzegovina.
Ther is I2a in Armenia to:
The common ancestor of the seven Armenian I2*'s lived approximately 4,500 years ago.

Here's the most recent post on this subject by Ken Nordtvedt: "The I2* cluster is an enigma because overall I2* is probably the strangest haplogroup in Hg I. I2* is generally spread across every quarter of Europe except noticeably light in Scandinavia. I2* has a strong and much older Armenian/Turkish presence and shows up elsewhere in the MidEast/Levant. Because of the bias of our good databases, however, an objective statement of its relative strength across this vast span of territory can not yet be made. But no other subhaplogroup of I is so lacking in geographical concentration. And I2* is old in the time back to its TMRCA --- only being challenged as oldest Hg I clade by I2a1 M26+ Sardinian." With regards to the I2a branch, I am more and more enclined to believe it represents one of the major genetic components of the Indo-European speaking "Armen" people, themselves part of the Phrygian people, who came into Anatolia from the West around 1,300 B.C. As per Dr. Roy King: " ... Assyrians and Armenians are practically identical [genetically] except for language which must be reflected in the I2 and perhaps E1b1b1a-V13 frequencies for the Indo-European superstratum. This is interesting in that it suggests that the Indo-European Armenian speakers came from the Balkans rather than via the Caucasus."
Link for that:http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news
Sorry couldnt find anymore data , because Dagestan is not that much tested.
About Balts and Finno ugric : Balts are in the same place they allways use to be - Lithuania , Litva , North east Poland ( Prussi , Mazuri ,... ) and north east Russia , Finno Ugric are in Northeast Russia ( mari , Kommi , ... ) , Finland and Estonia and they are represented by N1c which is in Europe since 20.000 years ago .
About strong I2a2 in upper Pripyat it could be explained by setling of White Croats in IX century ( patriarch Nicophorus of Constantinopolis write about escape of parts of Serbs and Croats from Balkans infront of Franks ) -they hill forts are present since IX century up to XI century .
All of I2a2 amongs slavic populations can be explained by Sarmatian settlement , Serboi and Heruatai were Sarmatian tribes , and where they goes I2a2 follow .

 

[Bodin]

Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.



Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536

As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?

This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?

What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).



This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.



If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes?

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century.



I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.



You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! etrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.

This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.



Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain.

Hier is reformated post like you ask me to do , hope this one would be more understandable :
Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000536
I never said there was no paleolitic I in Europe .Maybe it come from aeria around Vistula river where it has been long time , and later being involved in creation of Vandals .Maybe it is absent from that aeria due to move of whole Vandal tribe infront invading Huns and Slavs . There was Slavic tribe of Lendžani in that aeria of Poland that got they name from living on "ledina " empty / deserted land .Vandals carry it to Basque , Aragon and Sardinia.

Beaker Bell Culture could also be I2a1.

What do you mean Vandals were on Sardinia less than a century , if they were ther for century , they couldnt just dissapear after Byzantium ( Justinian ) conquered Sardinia , they would stay there for XV centuries more - untill today .
Yes Magyar is classified as Uralic languague because basic words ( family members , food ,... about 50 words ) are Uralic , but 99,99% of Magyar is IE loan words . Magyars moved from Ural in about III century AD , somewhere in steppes around Don , that land is called Levadia by their duke Levenda , there they mixed with Alans ( legend about Levenda married Dulo princess of Alans , they have some Alan words like Vert- sword ) . And with Huns and other Turks ( they have 100 words from preOttoman Turkic ) .In IX century was formed aliance of 10 tribes 7 Magyar and 3 Kabir ( Khazars ) which was called Ungor/ Ugar ( 10 arrows in Turkic ) .894 Byzantine emperor Leon VI called Ugars to attack Bulgar emperor Simeon who attacked Byzantium , they raid north Bulgaria , but Simeon called tribe of Pechenegi who use to live on east from Ugri , Pechenegi beated Ugri , and Ugri escaped to Slavic state of Panonia ( Franks vassals ) known also like Balaton principate ,by the legends Slavs didnt object they coming and there was no war , they just exepted Ugar rule . If you are interested in Hungary/ Magyarorsag history I could recomend you some great books.as
About no R1b in Neolithic sites : maybe R1b was yet in Iberia , and latter spread to France , especially Germany .

"Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa. This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco.[2] The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain, and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian peninsula "
-from Wikkipedia (type Iberians., thats only one theory of origin)
I am not realy shore but I believe Paussanias write in his "Description of Hellas " that Iberians came in Iberia from Africa.Thanks for answering

 

[Shetop]

all of Russia has 10% I2a2 wher did you get 20%

You percentage appears closer to reality. I was to fast with my statement about Russia, I just wanted to say that I2a2a-Dinaric exists in Russia. 10% or 12% out of 120 million is more than 12 million. Probably a bit more than in Balkans.

About Caucasus - I never saw data in any study which shows that I2a2a-Dinaric has significant presence there.

 

[Bodin]

You percentage appears closer to reality. I was to fast with my statement about Russia, I just wanted to say that I2a2a-Dinaric exists in Russia. 10% or 12% out of 120 million is more than 12 million. Probably a bit more than in Balkans.

About Caucasus - I never saw data in any study which shows that I2a2a-Dinaric has significant presence there.

You cannt calculate the numbers , Russia is lot wider aeria with lot more space to populate . In Russia there is lot biger number of Sarmatian tribes and in Balkans only two : Serbs and Croats. Some of them stayed in Boiki ( Bohemia , Bavaria and parts of Saxonia Anhalt - Lusitania)-Serbs , and Croats in Moravia and Czech where they were before coming on Balkans . Some of them leaved Balkans during IX century and settled Red Ruthenia ( northwest Ukraine , southwest Belarus ) -Rusini-Serbs , or White Croatia ( Lviv district in Ukraine , Tatras in Slovakia , and Krakow region in Poland ) . Dušan empire use to have same population like contemporary England , but now England have 58 000 000 and whole of Greece( , Macedonia ,Albania and whole Serbia ( not whole in empire)