Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

Shetop said:
I was there where you are now: My abandoning of Sarmatian theory
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Sory I make a mistake and send only half of message last time , this is whole of it :
You shouldnt calculate numbers from percents because Russia is lot wider region then Balkan - lot more food and space which are conditions for faster spreading of population . Also there was lot of Sarmatian nations( Yazigi , Alani , Yazigi , Roxolani , Yaxamatae, Asii,...) , and on Balkans there is only 2 : Serbs and Croats . And some of them left behind in Boiki ( Bavaria , Bohemia , Lusitania -Lužica) -Serbs and some in Moravia and Czech - Croats . During IX century some Croats moved to White Croatia ( Slovakian Tatras , Lviv region in Ukraine , and Krakow region in Poland = Galicia ) , and some Serbs moved to Red Ruthenia ( Northwest Ukraine and Southwest Belarus ) .Dušans empire use to have same population like conterporary England , but today UK have 58 000 000 and Serbia ( not whole in empire ) , Greece ( not whole in empire ) , Macedonia and Albania has only 25 000 000 . Also during I WW died 1/4 of population of lands of former Yugoslavia , and during II WW 1/4 more
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).
Which studies about Caucasus had you looked?
Thanks for answering . Are theories ard basicaly same , there is only thing thet separate them who brought I2a2 on Balkan Sarmatians , or protoSlavs around Pripyat.
You had make mistake abandoning good theory , when do you plan to abandon heresy and go back to real values?:)-Joke
 
Bodin said:
Sory I make a mistake and send only half of message last time , this is whole of it :
You shouldnt calculate numbers from percents because Russia is lot wider region then Balkan - lot more food and space which are conditions for faster spreading of population . Also there was lot of Sarmatian nations( Yazigi , Alani , Yazigi , Roxolani , Yaxamatae, Asii,...) , and on Balkans there is only 2 : Serbs and Croats . And some of them left behind in Boiki ( Bavaria , Bohemia , Lusitania -Lužica) -Serbs and some in Moravia and Czech - Croats . During IX century some Croats moved to White Croatia ( Slovakian Tatras , Lviv region in Ukraine , and Krakow region in Poland = Galicia ) , and some Serbs moved to Red Ruthenia ( Northwest Ukraine and Southwest Belarus ) .Dušans empire use to have same population like conterporary England , but today UK have 58 000 000 and Serbia ( not whole in empire ) , Greece ( not whole in empire ) , Macedonia and Albania has only 25 000 000 . Also during I WW died 1/4 of population of lands of former Yugoslavia , and during II WW 1/4 more
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).
Which studies about Caucasus had you looked?
Thanks for answering . Are theories ard basicaly same , there is only thing thet separate them who brought I2a2 on Balkan Sarmatians , or protoSlavs around Pripyat.
You had make mistake abandoning good theory , when do you plan to abandon heresy and go back to real values?:)-Joke
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So that I may ubderstand you, you are saying that the serbians are the sarmatians who carry I2a2 and that the illyrians ( in the north) of the bronze and iron ages are R1a. Since the Romans and greeks historians did not know of any slavic people in their sphere of the world, then I cannot doubt you in saying that the serbians could be sarmatians. On the other hand Scytians which became hunnic and that huns are magyar.
What where the goths, vandals and burgundians , I1a ?

Its strange that in the last 20 years, slovenes, croatians and now serbians are saying that they where never slavic.
it seems that historians in the dark ages that noted that slavi where only russians could be correct.
 
zanipolo said:
So that I may ubderstand you, you are saying that the serbians are the sarmatians who carry I2a2 and that the illyrians ( in the north) of the bronze and iron ages are R1a. Since the Romans and greeks historians did not know of any slavic people in their sphere of the world, then I cannot doubt you in saying that the serbians could be sarmatians. On the other hand Scytians which became hunnic and that huns are magyar.
What where the goths, vandals and burgundians , I1a ?

Its strange that in the last 20 years, slovenes, croatians and now serbians are saying that they where never slavic.
it seems that historians in the dark ages that noted that slavi where only russians could be correct.
Click to expand...
Yes I am saying Serbs ( and Croats to ) are Saramatians , atleast it looks most probable to me from all theories. And yes I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a .
Huns are definetly of Azian Scythians - Saka , atleast parts of them. Magyars are just partially Huns , and partially Finnic ( not from Finland but Uralic group of peoples ) . Descedants of Huns are also partially Bulgars ( all of them , Balcanic , and ones in Russia ) , also Bulgars are partially Sarmatian .Descendants of Huns were also Khazars ( Hunic tribe Akatziroi) . Also some nations on northern ridge of Caucasus has partially Hunic origin.
Goths , and Burgundians mainly I1a with some R1a , and R1b like in Sweden. Vandals maybe I1a , maybe R1a and what I would guess I2a1-M26 on Sardinia , but that is realy under ?
Well it is not realy since 20 years Pop Dukljanin Anales writer from XII century( oldest preserved native historiographer ) claims that Serbs and Croats are Gots - and Alans and Sarmats were few centuries under Gothic rule , so maybe they accepted they name .
Also historian from XVI century Josif Rajačić say that before Serbians have moved to Bohemia from where they come on Balkans , they use to live on banks of Meotian lake ( Azov see ) - same spot where Pliny placing Serboi.
Well not realy , Poles , Czechs , Slovaks , Slovenians are Slavs , and each of them is constituted of several Slavic nations . Even on Balkans is settled several Slavic nations : Severyani and 6 other Slavic tribes in Bulgaria ; Yezeriti and Milinzi on Peloponesus (Milinzi could be Serbs , because there was Serbian tribe of Milinčani - but these is only wild guess based on similarity of names ) ; Berziti , in FYR Macedonia ; Strimoni and Smolyani in Greek Thracia ; Draguviti, Rinhini , Sagudati ,Velegeziti and Vajuniti in Greek Macedonia ; Timočani and Moravlyani in east Serbia . Thanks for answering
 
Shetop said:
I was there where you are now: My abandoning of Sarmatian theory
Click to expand...
I would like to know why you had abandoned theory of Sarmathian origin of Serbs , maybe it would change something in my oppinion by providing new perspective. I folowed your link , but havent find anything that would change your theory .Except it is what that guy ( imperorum romanorum or something like that ) said that Iranians are Assyrians , thats not truth , you know ? :)- Joke
I also readed all post in thread about Serbian and Croatian Sarmatian origins , and havent find anything that would change my maind , it acctualy strenghtened my views , so if you can post reasons why do you believe I2a2 is Slavic.
 
Bodin said:
I also readed all post in thread about Serbian and Croatian Sarmatian origins , and havent find anything that would change my maind , it acctualy strenghtened my views , so if you can post reasons why do you believe I2a2 is Slavic.
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I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.
 
Shetop said:
I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.
Click to expand...
Point of any discusion I believe to be is to take another viewpoint on your own theories , to reinforce or abandone your theory based on facts , and sharing of facts is crucial for that . And I would quote Aristotelus : " Only fool never changes its oppinion ". So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue). So there is possibility you can say something that would change my mind.
I believe Sarmatian theory not to be based only on a name , there is also a lot of similarities ( Slavs usualy lived on banks of big rivers -Serbs and Croats settled on Dinaric mountains , Serbs and Croatische national clotes do not resemble Slavic- exept in parts of Voyvodina and Slavonia but do resemble clotes of some parts of Iran , Slavic main deity was Perun - thundergod , while ancestor of all Serbs - by legend and main deity of Serbs is Daybog - one that brings culture , similar to German Wotan , some time Serbs and Slavs call him Voden ,...)
Egzactly Slavic theory is based solely on languague , now I going to use you own proof against you " it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language " , than how could it happened that R1a ( five times more numerous than I2a2 in Slavs) wouldnt preserve they own languague , instead they speacking I2a2 langugue.

Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .
Thanks for answering
 
Bodin said:
So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue).
Click to expand...

I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.
 
Goga said:
Here is the list of ancient Iranian peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

According to this list Lazyges clan was part of the Samartian tribe. Lazyges folks lived not far from the Balkans.

Here is the map where you can find this Lazyges clan.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5606/sarmatae.png
Click to expand...
Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .
 
Shetop said:
I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.
Click to expand...
We have discussion to get to some evidence.
French get they name from ruling class of Franks , it is first name for Austrasia ( Frankonia in Deutschland - named after Franks , and they mainly descendants of Franks ) and Neustria ( Ill d France - aeria around Paris , also mainly populated by descendants of Franks ) , and only later it has spreaded on whole France state.
English get they name by Angli tribe , and they genetic contribution in England is not small at all - R1b - U106 is also Germanic , not only I1 and I2b .
Hungarians get they name by Turkic word Ungor/Ugor which mean 10 arows representing union of 7 Magyar tribes and 3 Kabiri tribes ( Kabiri- part of Khazars ) , they call themselves Magyars and state Magyarorsag . Yes they have low N frequency , but original Magyars were probably partially Q , R1a ( mainly Turkic R1a ) , and J2 from Khorazm ( also Turkic) . And Kabiri mostly R1a ( Slavic/ Scythian) , G2a and J2 .
Bulgarians get they name to Volga river , and us to be called like that since they are entered history . I dont know they ever changed they name , if you know please share , I would like to know that .
Russians get they name by rulling class of Varingians ( Ruotsi is Finnic name for Sweden ) , or by Roxolans .
I believe they just changed they languague , like it has hapened on all of Near East- Syrria , Lebanon , ... and North Africa - Egypt , Morroco , Algeria ,... they all abandoned they languagues and now speacking Arabian.
Thanks for answering.
 
Bodin said:
Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .
Click to expand...
thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Mitanni, Kassites, Guti, Corduchi and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like; Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians and that Corduchi were related to Scythians

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.
 
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Goga said:
thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Corduene, Mitanni, Kassites, Guti and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians.

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.
Click to expand...
Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answering
 
Bodin said:
Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answering
Click to expand...
Serbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.
 
People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/polish/polonaise02.html
 
Goga said:
I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)
Click to expand...
'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.
 
Goga said:
Serbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.
Click to expand...
Serbs have biger percent of I2a2-Din , Croats have even biger 42% , and in Herzegovina ( east part are mostly Serbs , and west mostly Croats ) there is 71% . There is probably some variations in I2a2 levels in Kurdistan to , if you or someone else has data please post . But there is more Kurds ( 40-50 millions ) and only 12 millions Serbs.
Yes in Midle Ages Polish nobility use to claim they are descedants of Sarmatians , maybe they were descendants of White Croats ( Bielochorbatoi) , I dont know that is the best I could think of . Also nobility of Grand Dutchy of Litva use to claim they are descendants of Saramatians , and there is 6% of I2a2 in Litva , and neighboring and also Baltic state of Lithuania has only 1% of I2a2 .
Thanks for answering
 
Goga said:
People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/polish/polonaise02.html
Click to expand...
Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .
 
Goga said:
'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.
Click to expand...

I had just readed your article about Szlachta and there is few things I have noticed: dvor is also word thet Serbs use to describe they houses in old times , aldo word for house is kuća and dvor has a meaning of palace .
There was 15% of nobility( szlachta) in Poland in XIX century , in Midle Ages in ex Yugoslavia lands there was about 5% of nobility , but in Herzegovina there was about 20% of nobility .
In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")
 
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