Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .
Wow, thanks. Your knowledge about this is huge!
 
In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")
Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...
 
Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.
 
Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...
Niiiiceeee!!!!!!:grin:
 
In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.
Well donkey / idiot is also Niiiiiceee!!!!!
 
In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.
Well, I can't write Kurdish. So maybe you're right.

We say gur, sounds more like between gur and gör (between u and ö). I used the whole "Kurdish" word as an example to find the roots of that word.

Maybe it's a children variant to call Erdogan an idiot (Kerdogan), but I mean really Kirdogan, more like d*ckh**d.
 
saying in Serbs "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

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Pasthun Sarbans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbans
Mohmand_abdul.jpg



Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg




(white) Sart people from Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart



696px-Sartscrop.jpg



Sarta people - northwest China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

280px-Streets_of_Dongxiang_Man_04.jpg
 

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actually, I was probably wrong all along......

latest research shows:
1) that haplogroup I in Afghanistan is in fact I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic tribes...so this may be remains of some prehistoric "drang nach Osten"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

2) this I2 is not found in Pashtuns who are considered to origin from Scythians and are R1a dominant people, but 2 in Hazara who dominantly origin from soldiers of Genghis Kan and 1 in Tajik sample...


for me this is indication that Serica, north of Tibet was I2b1, because Serica stretched into Tajikistan and it was likely subdued on start of Genghis Kan conquest....hence people from there were used as soldiers in Afganistan leaving Hazara as their offspring (apparently according to preserved tradition the word Hazara comes from number 1000 which was number of people in units that were left as settlements to rule the country)

so Serica was probably related to I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic people
=> same holds for modern Sart people who are descended from Serica people.....




regarding 2) it is rather low number of samples and it is not clear where 49 samples for Pasthuns come from (whether they include some Pashtun Sarbans but they probably do as Sarbans are largest tribal group of Pashtuns) but still based on that sample Pasthuns are 50% R1a and no haplogroup I, Sarbans are largest tribe of Pashtuns so probably roughly the same...


this suggest that I could be wrong all along with proposed links between tribes and haplogroups
 
from
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=399077&viewfull=1#post399077

Serdi and Scordisci are both celtic tribes in the balkans, they have nothing to do with Ser. The triballi became the Serbs after these celtic tribes destroyed the Triballi.
Serdi resided in modern day Bulgaria - basically the capital area of Sofia and the Scordisci where NW of them.

that is possible scenario...

but not very likely...


Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...

vistula.jpg


Russian primary chronicle does however list Serbs among Danubian Slavs who migrated to Vistula area when pushed from Danube by expanding Roman empire...
danube.jpg


Danubian Slavs are described to live along Danube in Hungary and Bulgaria of moment of writing Primary chronicle which was around year 1113 when Bulgaria was further to north encompassing also most of north Serbia and Hungary was in control of area of Vojvodina (north province of Serbia)... this is exactly Scordisci area prior to Roman expansion....

250px-Scordisci_state.png


in fact you can see at 1AD that they have already retreated to north....
entity_94.jpg


attacked people typically retreat to closest mountains that they can defend...it makes sense that Scordisci have retreated along Danube and towards north-west Carpathians and north from that using northwest Carpathians as defendable obstacle to spread of Roman empire.... hence using this logic they would end up in south Poland and Slovakia...from there expansion to east Germany and Czech republic makes sense in times when those areas are more or less vacant due to migrations of Germanic people (around 5th century)

eunewlnd.gif




now if thracanized Scord+isci were known as Serd+i, than slavicized Serdi would easily give Serb+i




it is unlikely that Tribali would take the path up the Danube and into northwest Carpathians when moving away from expanding Roman empire...



350px-Triballi_territory.jpg


i think that Tribali either stayed (they already lived in highlands and were thus relatively isolated from direct influence of Roman empire that rulled over them) and melted in Romanized populations or moved towards Black sea and east Carpathians.. or both..



considering their latin borrowings comming from north of Jirecek line in fact being the same as in area of Romania,

300px-Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg


it is more likely for Albanians to origin from Tribali that merged into Roman empire and than later retreated to mountains of Albania when Roman empire was crumbling and nations like Huns, Goths and Avars were terrorizing Balkan area...... in Albanian word "ballë" = front, facade
3-balli is thus facade of their living space, that is borderland with three other ethnic groups....

partially romanized Tribali probably merged with partially romanized Dardanians to give (D)Ardanasi-> Arbanasi (which is medieval name of Albanians)

note here same change from 'rd' to 'rb' as in Serdi->Serbi... this could be some issue in satem branch of IE

Illyrians have nothing to do with Albanians... few preserved Illyrian words whose meaning is known match Slavic much much better than Albanian... Illyrians are dinaric race like south Slavs, Albaians are east mediteranean.... Illyrians are tribes that wage wars among themselves all the time like south Slavs do, Albanians are firmly united despite religion differences...iIlyrians being proto-Slavic people is explanation why there are no borrowings from Albanian in Bosnia and Croatia, but there are lot of borrowings from Slavic in Albanian...

The medieval nobility of Serbs always took the triballi as their origins..
never heard of that...
some Byzantine historians did call Serbs Triballi though...
but they also attributed ancient names to some other people based on the current location...
so, this may be about location of Tribali north of their empire.....

as for Croats, they may origin from Carpi that moved from Black sea towards west (pressed by Roman empire from south and Huns from east) along east Carpathians....
eventually they occupied south of Poland neighnbouring Serbs...there their language started merging..... according to De administrando imperio, 'white Serbia' borders state of Franks on west and 'white Croatia' on east....
 
never heard of that...
some Byzantine historians did call Serbs Triballi though...
but they also attributed ancient names to some other people based on the current location...
so, this may be about location of Tribali north of their empire.....

as for Croats, they may origin from Carpi that moved from Black sea towards west (pressed by Roman empire from south and Huns from east) along east Carpathians....
eventually they occupied south of Poland neighnbouring Serbs...there their language started merging..... according to De administrando imperio, 'white Serbia' borders state of Franks on west and 'white Croatia' on east....

from the net

in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles

With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia

The seal of the Serbian parliament has the Serbian cross and the Triballi boar.


For the fourteenth century writers Pachymeres, Gregoras, Metochites and Kantakouzenos the Serbs were Triballi.

The only historical fact is that in 577 CE , 100000 slavs arrived in the balkans, ..........It does not say serbs, croats or anything else......the ancient triballi or what was left of them where slavitized by language and became serbians. Byzantine historians even noted this. The serbians are not all pure blooded slavs from polish lands, not today, not in the medieval times and not in the dark ages period.

Why should I accept the term slav to any other people except poles and ukraines ?.......being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history
 
How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?
 
The only historical fact is that in 577 CE , 100000 slavs arrived in the balkans, ..........It does not say serbs, croats or anything else.....
source?

only source that speaks in details about the settlement of Slavs on Balkan is De administrando imperio... it says that they have settled desolated lands...
and it speaks of Serbs and Croats not of Slavs in general...
the ancient triballi or what was left of them where slavitized by language and became serbians. Byzantine historians even noted this. The serbians are not all pure blooded slavs from polish lands, not today, not in the medieval times and not in the dark ages period.

Why should I accept the term slav to any other people except poles and ukraines ?.......being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history
How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?
Haplogroup E comes from assimilated Tribali and Dardanians...

part of it was already absorbed by Scordisci....


regarding idea that Scordisci did carry some Ewith them.....

south and east Germany and west of Czech republic is where Serbs come from to Balkan in 6th century (probably after living there for relatively short period) ..in east and south Germany E1b1 is 7.5% and 8% (larger than in Croatia)...Czech republic has 6% (same as Croatia), and for Serb related E1b1 one should search only in west Bohemia...of course I do not claim that much of this E origin from Serbs... but some E might have been carried from Germany to Serbia (by Serbs) and other way around (by Scordisci)...
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

in fact, looking at Czech republic
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20500/abstract

we can see that percentage of I2a-Din dramatically rises
(from 4.1% to 9.2% and 14,6%) and E percentage dramatically drops (from 8.2% to 4.2% and 1.5%) in area (west parts of Bohemia) from where Serbs come to Balkan...

indicating that haplogroup E in Serbs is more or less exclusively obtained after settling in Serbia, while I2a-Din was carried by them...

but if Serbs did not carry any significant percentage of haplogroup E to Balkan, how come there is so big difference in haplogroup E in modern Serbs and Croats?


in Croatia and Bosnia haplogroup E is much less than in Serbia, FYRM and Montenegro because Illyrians were not haplogroup E people while Tribali and Dardanians were E dominant people....

Bosnia is like one big wood with lot of mountains....its so easy for any population to survive there by hiding... but we are led to believe that Illyrians were wiped out from Bosnia and Croatia.... and if pockets of them survived and if their language was like Albanian, where are loan words from Albanian in Croatia and Bosnia? there are no loan words from Albanian there...but Albania is full of Slavic place names and Albanian is full of Slavic words...
this can be interpreted only by population speaking a language alike to Slavic living there before Albanians...
 
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How Yes No?

the HG E Serbs came from Bohemia Moravia?
or you believe that Nis Leskovac etc are not Serbians?

They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!
 
They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!

they are ethnic Serbs...
they do not genetically origin from proto Serbs in direct male line (looking at father of father of father of father...in times when proto-Serbs settled Balkans)...that's all..

even if you stress genetics origin, I do not expect that looking at autosomal genetics Serbs carrying haplogroup E yDNA really differ much or at all from the rest of Serbs...

YDNA haplogroups make sense only for tracing movements of big groups of people...they have not much value for establishing some personal genetic traits...
 
source?

only source that speaks in details about the settlement of Slavs on Balkan is De administrando imperio... it says that they have settled desolated lands...
and it speaks of Serbs and Croats not of Slavs in general...


Haplogroup E comes from assimilated Tribali and Dardanians...

part of it was already absorbed by Scordisci....


regarding idea that Scordisci did carry some Ewith them.....

south and east Germany and west of Czech republic is where Serbs come from to Balkan in 6th century (probably after living there for relatively short period) ..in east and south Germany E1b1 is 7.5% and 8% (larger than in Croatia)...Czech republic has 6% (same as Croatia), and for Serb related E1b1 one should search only in west Bohemia...of course I do not claim that much of this E origin from Serbs... but some E might have been carried from Germany to Serbia (by Serbs) and other way around (by Scordisci)...
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

in fact, looking at Czech republic
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20500/abstract

we can see that percentage of I2a-Din dramatically rises
(from 4.1% to 9.2% and 14,6%) and E percentage dramatically drops (from 8.2% to 4.2% and 1.5%) in area (west parts of Bohemia) from where Serbs come to Balkan...

indicating that haplogroup E in Serbs is more or less exclusively obtained after settling in Serbia, while I2a-Din was carried by them...

but if Serbs did not carry any significant percentage of haplogroup E to Balkan, how come there is so big difference in haplogroup E in modern Serbs and Croats?


in Croatia and Bosnia haplogroup E is much less than in Serbia, FYRM and Montenegro because Illyrians were not haplogroup E people while Tribali and Dardanians were E dominant people....

Bosnia is like one big wood with lot of mountains....its so easy for any population to survive there by hiding... but we are led to believe that Illyrians were wiped out from Bosnia and Croatia.... and if pockets of them survived and if their language was like Albanian, where are loan words from Albanian in Croatia and Bosnia? there are no loan words from Albanian there...but Albania is full of Slavic place names and Albanian is full of Slavic words...
this can be interpreted only by population speaking a language alike to Slavic living there before Albanians...

you are too nationalistic for this forum. language plays no part in ethnicy...as an example ,
to be Italian you have to qualify for jure sanguinis, this is a ethnicty law which states that a Italian as a people is only valid from 1861, so if your parents left italy prior to 1861, regardless if your family was there for a 1000years you cannot be Italian. All people prior to 1861 where not Italian.
What does this mean for us in this forum, well the term Italian prior to 1861 referred to a geographical people that was living in Italy, the term is like being called, British, Iberian, Scandinavian, etc...these names are not people just an area. The reason for this is because the Italian government agrees that there where no Italians prior to 1861.

You on the other hand are claiming to be a serb of slavic origin purely because the serbs speak a slavic tongue, you ignore all ancient people in the area which is Serbia now.
being called or saying you are slav due to linguistic knowledge of the slavic tongue clearly distorts ancient history
 
They are national Serbs but not ethnic. They mainly belong to pre-slavic population in Balkans.

The same thing as I2a or R1a in Greece. Are they Greeks today? Yes, they are!

I Know I just ask How Yes NO cause sometimes has some 'strange' views.
almost denying in another post the Trballi contribution to modern Serbian population.
 
from
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=399077&viewfull=1#post399077





Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...

The Proto-Slavs were part of Zarubintsy Culture, and after formed Kiev culture.
They expand west and southwest absorbing a lot of Sarmatian,Dacian, and Germanic communities.


Here is some Dacian archaeological evidence, in the future Slavic area:


http://uw.academia.edu/MarcinRudnic...e-Roman_Dacia_and_territory_of_Central_Poland

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/1mpdy058w01fm3q2/images/10-42de38e174.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setidava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burs_(Dacia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli


Also, Dacian tribe Biessi(see Burs article),and Beskids mountains.

Romanian substratum word "magura" means"high hill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamagurie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spišská_Magura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/măgură/paradigma


an interesting analysis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/
 
The Proto-Slavs were part of Zarubintsy Culture, and after formed Kiev culture.
They expand west and southwest absorbing a lot of Sarmatian,Dacian, and Germanic communities.


Here is some Dacian archaeological evidence, in the future Slavic area:


http://uw.academia.edu/MarcinRudnic...e-Roman_Dacia_and_territory_of_Central_Poland

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/1mpdy058w01fm3q2/images/10-42de38e174.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setidava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burs_(Dacia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli


Also, Dacian tribe Biessi(see Burs article),and Beskids mountains.

Romanian substratum word "magura" means"high hill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamagurie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spi%C5%A1sk%C3%A1_Magura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/măgură/paradigma


an interesting analysis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/

We basically agree on what I have been saying in other threads that the true slavs came from around Kiev, the polish came from the east side of Kiev and migrated to modern day Poland..........of these true slavs, what numbers went into the Balkans. The best/most numbers I have is only 100,000 by Byzantine historians
 

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