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Thread: Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    You are 100% confused people

    Who are Slavs? Is it a language, culture or people?

    Some people who are slavs:
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    Russia - 46% R1a
    Belarus - 49% R1a
    Poland - 56,5% R1a

    Why is haplogroup I slavic, because of the Serbs?
    Who said the inhabitants in Serbia are 100% Serbs or Slavic?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia
    nope, I think Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them... however, Serbs who arrived on Balkan from Bohemia in 7th century are mostly I2a2 people....

    evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
    Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
    http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

    early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....





    according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    point is you cannot equate Slavs with R1a, especially that seems to be far from truth for south Slavs...

    well, look at Pelloponese....
    in Lerna/Franhtichi where you would expect lot of Slav influence, R1a is 1.8%
    while haplogroup I is 21.2%

    in Serbia R1a is around 15%, and haplogroup I all branches together close to 50%.... similar is in Macedonia and even more extreme in Bosnia....
    Montenegro has like 7% of R1a
    while non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have like 12%....

    do you realize now why R1a is not = Slavs? things are more complicated than that....



    Avars were probably J haplogroup...
    in Caucasus there are still Avars and they are mainly J haplogroup (71.4%)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

    part of J haplogroup in Serbia might indicate origin from Avars...
    Q might be about Huns...

    haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
    I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
    I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
    I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
    E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
    R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
    R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
    J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
    J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
    J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
    G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
    N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
    Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
    H______________2.2% ___1.5%
    L_______________0.6%____1.2%

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo



    exactly...




    actually, I think that haplogroup I might have originally spread indo-european...

    I think so, because Teshub weather god (analog to Zeus in Greece) is in Hatti (pre-Hettite inhabitants of Asia minor) called Taru, and in Germanic people is Thor, while in later Hettite people same god is Tarhun, while in Baltic it is Perkunas and in Slavic is Perun...

    Luwian and Hetite language would be origin of Balto-Slavic, while Hatti would be origin of Germanic...early Slavic people are of Veneti race which is I am sure about I2a2 people... and Veneti origin from Eneti of Paphlagonia... thus from Hettite state (there were other haplogroups in various regions of that state)

    genetically I relate Hatti with later Getae and them with I2b1... there are two hotspots of I2b1 - germanic tribes and west of Black sea where Getae lived....


    Slavic and Germanic did split from PIE rather recently in genetic timeline...

    ....


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages




    or mix of two...or J or E.... it is just not known...


    probably...



    ?
    all people ultimately came from Africa....
    but indeed genetically speaking I is much closer to J than to R...
    as for people being different, well no... culture makes people different more than genetics...

    OK that was much more succinct thank you.

    It is easier to pick up what you are saying now. I see your points about your position of the I people being the Indo European-bearers. I myself still strongly go with the R1b1b2/R1a thesis at this time but I am open to learning more. Whatever happened, it is clear that the 'I' people were an exceptionally vigorous group. The ancient accounts of the Germans seems to be comparable to that of what people here think of Southern Slavs as far as their physical makeup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    nope, Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them...


    http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

    early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....





    according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....
    Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
    Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
    SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it? Since when is it Called Siberia? Tracking back word names are really useless in genetics because of the timeline, and many names have been given by other countries or people who wrote history. Thats why its confusing with who the real inhabitans were when they was conquered and given other names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    OK that was much more succinct thank you.

    It is easier to pick up what you are saying now.
    To further illustrate the point, look at R1a map...



    Magyars settled area previously settled by Slavs...so they settled in center of Hungary and pushed Slavs to east and west...now, south Slavs, central Ukraine and Romania cluster with east and west Hungary, but not with center...
    however center is R1a dominant and not east or west of it... which means Magyars brought R1a in not so much R1a area....

    look at hotspot of R1a in north Greece..... it is higher than in surrounding Slavic lands...

    now look at ancient Macedonia...



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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
    you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
    proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
    there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto-whatever nation

    not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
    as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...

    Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
    SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it?
    read again quote from Klyosov about oldness of R1a throughout world...there are two ancient old pockets of it - South Sibir and Serb populated lands..doesn't that ring a bell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
    proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
    there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto--

    not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
    as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...
    But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
    Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?
    Kings or Rulers of any people or country dont need to be of same stock and thats a fact.
    For who did the name Serb or Serbia belong to, the rulers or the people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
    Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?
    tribal names are identity...
    YDNA haplogroup is just small part of our DNA... it can be replaced in 2 generations of invaders as it reflects only direct male line.... also it can be dilluted in YDNA of subjugated more populous tribe..

    however, YDNA haplogroup is very useful for detecting recent movements of people...

    there are two important things about YDNA haplogroups - frequency and variance... frequency speaks of recent past, variance of more distant past...

    in case of Serbs unprecedented oldness of R1a speaks of their ancestors being also ancestors of all other R1a people in Europe (note that other direction doesnot hold)... this is about past that we can date in tens of thousands years ago...

    but Serbs are also massive carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, which is about more recent past, that is about past from last several thousand years ago...when somehow merge of some I2 (perhaps not yet I2a2) and some R1a people happened, probably preserving R1a tribal name which may indicate that it was about R1a people ruling over I2 people...

    this could have been as recent as 500 AD, since Sorbs in east Germany are R1a dominant people...
    but Serbs came from Bohemia which is I2a2 hotpot, they probably came there via Ukraine which is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Ukraine from Kuban region northeast of Black sea (Siraces tribe that are considered to be same as Serboi) that is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Kuban region from Caspian shores where tribe Serboi lived, which is most east place with decent I2a2).....

    when R1a proto-Serbs (R1a forefathers of Serbs) took aforementioned path and spread to Balkan is hard to say...there are two options:
    1) 11000 years ago.... from south Sibir to Balkan
    2) 100 AD from Caspian highlands to Kuban region, 200 AD from Kuban region to Ukraine, 500 AD from Ukraine to Bohemia, 700 AD from Bohemia to Serbia...note that whole this route is through I2a2 people...alternatively, I2a2 could have been trace of Serboi...

    regarding the merge of I2 and R1a note that some Byzantine historians used name Sarbans for Serbs...
    there are another Sarbans in Afghanistan... Pasthun tribe...

    Pasthuns have lot of R1a...
    and Pasthun Sarbans can be distinguished by traces of haplogroup I* that in that part of Asia exactly matches Sarbans...

    so, merge of R1a and I2 haplogroups as visible in Serbs and other Slavs may be ancient old...... and I2 might have in fact developed from I* that lived among R1a people, as it is hard to find high frequencies of I2 without R1a context....

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    Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
    Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.


    Moesia Superior in the 4th century
    The region was inhabited chiefly by Thraco-Dacians, and Illyrian peoples. The name of the region comes from Moesi, Thraco-Dacian peoples who lived there before the Roman conquest.

    Dalmatia
    Dalmatia's name is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Dalmatae who lived in the area of the eastern Adriatic coast in the 1st millennium BC. It was part of the Illyrian Kingdom between the 4th century BC and the Illyrian Wars (220, 168 BC) when the Roman Republic established its protectorate south of the river Neretva. The name "Dalmatia" was in use probably from the second half of the 2nd century BC and certainly from the first half of the 1st century BC, defining a coastal area of the eastern Adriatic between the Krka and Neretva rivers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


    Where are the Slavs or Serbs in 4th century? Where is the name of Serbs and Serbia?
    Serbs could be Thracians, Illyrians and many more geneticlly or?
    The name dont really need to be or have anything to do with the original population of the Serb Nation.

    No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
    Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name matching with Serb, what a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
    Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.
    only joke people are Serbo-Bulgarians who want to carry name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe...

    Serbo-Bulgarians is about Bulgarian language that you speak and dominant Serbo-Slavic I2a2 imprint of FYRM MAcedonians of today....

    Serbo-Greek is about ancient old R1a people who subjugated Greek tribes and adopted their language....



    Moesia Superior in the 4th century

    The region was inhabited chiefly by....
    you forget Scordisci

    The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

    and same Celtic tribe also recorded under name Serdi

    The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

    now what about Serians/Seres dwelling upon mount Athos according to Herodotous in times of ancient Greece, and around Danube in times of Roman empire according to Seneca....but also in central Asia (= south Siberia), and in arc from northwest China to India (= position of Sarbans), and around Red sea( = Sabeans/Sheba which leads us to name origin from legendary queen of Sheba whose name in her south countries was known as Makeda, hence traditional name Macedonians for south most Serbs)

    Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


    in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
    Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...


    Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

    Seres dwell upon mount Athos.... isn't that more or less where ancient Macedonia is?


    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    Serians are obviously same as Seres, as location is same, and both names are often mentioned in reference to secret of silk production... I guess Seres would be ancient Greece term, Serians early Roman empire term...

    Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

    on this map you can find Serboi as Serbi, recorded in Caspian highlands in Asian Sarmatia...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

    you can also read about Siraces living in Kuban region till 200 AD being same as Serboi

    They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

    medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...


    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
    the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula,
    and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
    and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    and again spread along Danube (or lands of Hungaria and Bulgaria) is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...

    spread of Roman empire causes their migration to north... notice that Scordisci lived along Danube, Sava and Morava valleys...and Thracians (also tribe Serdi among them) in lower Danube in Bulgaria....notice that both Scordisci and Thracians disappear from Balkan at time of spread of Roman empire... than with decline of Roman empire you have Serbs and Croats coming back from north areas to Balkan....

    besides notice that name Thracians is same tribal name as Rascians (first medival Serb state is Raska) and also in fact same tribal name as Russians.....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

    note that Etruscans who were also R1a carriers called themselves Rasena (Serbs are Rasani, Russians are Rusi) while Greeks called them Thyrsenians also inserting letter 'T' in front of the word...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans


    No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
    Serbia is almost till Tokio as Sibir is still held by R1a offspring of proto-Serbs... :)


    Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name Serb, what a joke.
    we have two pockets of ancient R1a one in south Siberia and other in Serbia...
    and we have Serians as link between them... as Serians lived in central Asia, but also upon mount Athos in north Greece and around Danube...

    well, I know it is hard to accept, but it is kind of obvious who were Serians and who is origin of both R1a and I2a2 in Bulgarian speaking Serbs that misuse name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe .. :)

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    All with Haplogroups I2a2 & R1a is Serbian and that means all who have those are Serbs?

    Why do Serbs exclusively have chameleon names and tribe belonging of their nation and people? (Celts, Slavs or whatever the name matching)
    Only The Serbs (100% Serbs in Serbia) in Balkan got the name left from the belonging tribes? (The chosen ones)

    Mostly here in this forum will laugh about your explanation.
    Get serious or be ignored even by Serbs, this is way to much claim in any history of any kind of people and country. Why dont you even claim humans as Serbian if you want to go that far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
    Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.

    Moesia Superior in the 4th century

    The region was inhabited chiefly by Thraco-Dacians, and Illyrian peoples. The name of the region comes from Moesi, Thraco-Dacian peoples who lived there before the Roman conquest.

    Dalmatia
    Dalmatia's name is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Dalmatae who lived in the area of the eastern Adriatic coast in the 1st millennium BC. It was part of the Illyrian Kingdom between the 4th century BC and the Illyrian Wars (220, 168 BC) when the Roman Republic established its protectorate south of the river Neretva. The name "Dalmatia" was in use probably from the second half of the 2nd century BC and certainly from the first half of the 1st century BC, defining a coastal area of the eastern Adriatic between the Krka and Neretva rivers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


    Where are the Slavs or Serbs in 4th century? Where is the name of Serbs and Serbia?
    Serbs could be Tharcians, Illyrians and many more geneticlly or?

    No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
    Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name matching with Serb, what a joke.
    DejaVu
    That you are talking is the propaganda.

    But unlike you who sue the other, none will sue you.

    Just you do not know or do not read.

    There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it.

    Certainly, Y-DNA tests will determine who tribes were I bearers in the Balkans, and that is not disputable.

    What is controversial is the fact that How yes no has one assumption and I have the other.

    I do not know which of the two of us are right, but one is.

    How yes no argues that the proto Serb were R1a people and I would argue that the proto Serbs were I people.

    May be to establish rigorous scientific tests but it requires resources, time, you know how goes the learning curve, so put together a mosaic of knowledge.

    But it's really nothing to do with propaganda, because a sentence "Serbia to Tokyo", which you underlined, is just it.

    You do not understand neither the meaning of this sentence.

    And you know that this sentence has little to do with this discussion between me and How yes no.

    Once I told How yes no that Serbian nationalists would like the Serbs have the opposite percent that R1a is 48% and I is 14%.

    On the other hand, Croatian nationalists would like to have more I and less R1a.

    A quite normal that the Croats have more R1a when a large part of the Pannonian plain was full of Slavs and it is clear that the word Slavonia says that it is a Slavic country.

    But you see the irony, Serbs are dominant I the people and the Croats still prevails R1a.

    So with the nationalists and propagandists and all idelogists is difficult to talk because they do not want to discuss, no facts, no sources, no information, nothing.

    But personally I got used to the nationalists and other ideologists, so that everything has a way, in fact one can adapt, what the objective is difficult is extracting some truth from scarce data, and the fact is that still not enough data, research, analysis and others about the haplogroups, in particular in relation to the past, to be able to draw relevant conclusions.

    So it is no wonder that the How yes no and I have opposite views on such an important issue, but we have not bothered to discuss with each other, although certainly one of the two of us are right and others wrong.

    Much more water will flow along the Sava and Danube until it is proven which of the two of us closer to the truth.

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    There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it.

    Try again with sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    All with Haplogroups I2a2 & R1a is Serbian and that means all who have those are Serbs?

    Why do Serbs exclusively have chameleon names and tribe belonging of their nation and people? (Celts, Slavs or whatever the name matching)
    Only The Serbs (100% Serbs in Serbia) in Balkan got the name left from the belonging tribes? (The chosen ones)

    Mostly here in this forum will laugh about your explanation.
    Get serious or be ignored even by Serbs, this is way to much claim in any history of any kind of people and country. Why dont you even claim humans as Serbian if you want to go that far.
    nope, what you keep posting is propaganda...

    everything I said in previous post is based on facts, on quotations from credible historic sources.... read again...think of it...research on your own...think again... and you will see that what I propose in previous post is very logical and very solid explanation of historical developments of Serb people.....

    possible mapping to haplogroups would be:
    tribal name Thracians = Russians = Rascians (Serb medieval alternative name) = Rasena (Etruscans) = R1a
    tribal name Seres = Scordisci = Serdi = Serboi = Sarbans = Serbs = Siraces = Scirii = Serians = I2a2 + R1a

    Thracians + Scordisci = Slavs living around Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary of times when Russian primary chronicle was written and migrating north after Vlakhs (Romans) started their conquest....

    ancient Macedonians were not counted in Slavs in Russian primary chronicle as they were hellenized Thracians and thus not culturally related to other Slavs....
    Macedonians of today are mix of recent spread of Slavs from north with romanized Paionians (ancient Macedonia was more to the south).... ancient Macedonians were originally Thracians or Serians, but they subjugated Greek tribes and accepted their language and culture... indication for this you have in Greek mythology,
    where Macedon is related to other Hellenic people (who origin from Hellen) via female line...(new nation is made out of invaders = male and subjugated = female and is in myths represented with birth of new person whose parents describe invader and subjugated tribes... often if invader is foreign not Greek nation than father was of course Zeus, who disguised in ant or whatever foreign tribe reminds of, in order to punish Greek people for some sin)

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=463

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    To tell you honestly DejaVu, if you noticed, with you I do not have any particular desire to discuss.

    You much insulted me, I can understand the passion and desire to say something, and trying to defend your opinions, all I can understand, but sentences and language that you used, I can you give some examples to see what you wrote, believe me, there is little sense.

    What is still bad, you did not understand some sentences of which I spoke, and when I was in line with some of your ideas, however, and this is truth, though now, from this perspective, there are my few posts which I would now deleted because I was a bit resentful, and started to build on some sentences that are not usually my style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    nope, what you keep posting is propaganda...

    everything I said in previous post is based on facts, on quotations from credible historic sources.... read again...think of it...research on your own...think again... and you will see that what I propose in previous post is very logical and very solid explanation of historical developments of Serb people.....
    Your version is your own or the Serbian version of history or maybe its the known fact over the world? Cant find the information you posted as Serbian history on the web.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    To tell you honestly DejaVu, if you noticed, with you I do not have any particular desire to discuss.

    You much insulted me, I can understand the passion and desire to say something, and trying to defend your opinions, all I can understand, but sentences and language that you used, I can you give some examples to see what you wrote, believe me, there is little sense.

    What is still bad, you did not understand some sentences of which I spoke, and when I was in line with some of your ideas, however, and this is truth, though now, from this perspective, there are my few posts which I would now deleted because I was a bit resentful, and started to build on some sentences that are not usually my style.
    "There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it."
    Do it for your own people and the others here, not for me and try again with sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Your version is your own or the Serbian version of history or maybe its the known fact over the world? Cant find the information you posted as Serbian history on the web.
    that is because official historians in Serbia are too lazy to search own history in historical sources, even though today with computers it is very easy to search large texts for short time... and unoffical historians are mythomans who wrongly see proto-Serbs where they are not, but systematically fail to see them where they are...

    besides official historians were in communism brainwashed with 19 th century Germanic school of history that puts Slavs in position of cowards who breathe on straws hiidng from mighty Germans...of course that is same school who made Veneti Germanic people, even though Jordanes states clearly that early Slavs are of Veneti race.... same school that claims it is coincidence that Slavs were called Wends and that it is about they moving into land where Veneti previously lived...

    now, one has to be idiot not to see that that was clearly 18th and 19th century politically motivated theory in order to claim Poland as Germanic land... and also to invent historic right on keeping east most Germany that was in those days still fairly aware of its Slavic origin...

    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html
    Jordanes- origin and deeds of Goths

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    "There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it."
    Do it for your own people and the others here, not for me and try again with sources.
    DejaVu
    Just because you do not want to look at is your problem.

    I told you, I wrote but on another topic.

    I give an example.

    Triballians
    The Triballi (Greek: Τριβαλλοί, Bulgarian, Serbian: Трибали/Tribali) were an ancient Thracian tribe whose dominion was around the plains of southern modern Serbia[14][15] and west Bulgaria, at the Angrus and Brongus (the South and West Morava) and the Iskur River, roughly centered where Serbia and Bulgaria are joined.[15]
    This Thracian tribe has etymologically been connected with the Serbs,[16][17] as many medieval Byzantine historians referred to the Serbs as the Triballians[18] (Serbian name for Triballians is "Srblji/Србљи", Thracians is rašani - the first Serbian state was Rascia, present-day Serbia). Trebinje, a present city of Herzegovina and historical Serbian principality (Travunija, sometimes rendered as Triballia) has also been connected with this tribe.
    From the 11th century until the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the Serbs were called Triballians in Byzantine works.[19][20][21][22][23] For example in the works of historian Niketas Choniates (1155–1215), Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos (1391–1425), it is explained that Triballians are synonymous with Serbs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_o...rbs_and_Serbia

    [16] The letters of Manuel II Palaeologus


    Manuel II Palaeologus (Emperor of the East)

    http://books.google.se/books?id=AdbgOudLnj4C

    [18] The development of the Komnenian army: 1081-1180

    [19] JSTOR: The English Historical Review, Vol. 53, No. 209 (Jan., 1938), pp. 129-131

    [20] Mehmed II the Conqueror and the fall of the Franco-Byzantine Levant to the Ottoman Turks Page 65, 77: "Triballians = Serbs"

    [21] The letters of Manuel II Palaeologus Page 48: "The Triballians are the Serbs"

    [22] The Journal of Hellenic studies Page 48: "Byzantine historians [...] calling [...] Serbs Triballians"

    [23] Studies in late Byzantine history and prosopography Page 228: "Serbs (were) Triballians"


    ...
    Triballians are one of the Serbian tribes, and as you can see the they are Thracians.

    You can easily draw the conclusion that the Serbs = Thracians.

    In my estimation Triballians were I carriers.

    I have already said, I disagree with the How yes no but very appreciate his efforts.

    My thinking is that originally Serbs were I the people as today, and not R1a.

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    All you need to know about the Y-dna of Serbs and Montenegrins is in the below link.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25997
    Also it's clear that there is not enough research done in Serbia on Y haplogroups.
    Not to mention that the current ethnic definition of a Serb is always changing, when under Ottoman rule a Serb was a Slavic speaker of Orthodox faith with no affiliation to Bulgars. This ruled out all the Serbs who converted to the Islamic faith. Also Serbs from different regions of Serbia and Balkans are very different. A Serb from Kosovo is different from a Serb from Vojvodina, and a Serb from Montenegro is different from a Serb from Timocka Krajna, just like a Serb from Bosnia is different from a Serb from Sumadija. Anyway until further research is done within the different micro regions of Serbia the modern day Serb can't truly be known. Serbs have also on a number of different occasions lost a large amount of the male population, the two most known examples being WWI and the battle of Kosovo, making current Y-DNA a little less reliable when looking into the past for answers. It seems to me that you are all using the lack of current data to propagate your own theories of Serbs or what you want the Serbs to be. Also I think this thread was created by Dejavu just for the sake of arguing, so I think it should be closed down.

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    StillSrb,
    My opinion is that with R1a among the Serbs is exaggerated.

    In accordance Klyosov, R1a in Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, FYROM, and possibly Greece and Albania belong ancient Balkans people, although perhaps if there was some migration of the Slavs in the seventh century AD, some R1a came then.

    However, I am persuaded, that Proto Serbs, and today's Serbs and all Serbs in the distant and near history are I people.

    Of course, it is good to research Y-DNA people during the Nemanjic Dynasty, and in 10 and 5 century AD, 10, 20, 50 centuries BC, Vincians and so on.

    However, Nemanjices are very likely to be I people, and many others Serbs during the written and unwritten of history. The Americans carried out the Y DNA of some famous American historical figures who originally were Serbs and they were haplogroup I.

    Regardless of whether Serbs from Bosnia, Herzegovina, Sumadija, or Kosovo, and so on are different, no they aren't, high probability they are the I haplogroup. What is often neglected in American research Mirabal et al, that is real scientific research haplogroup in the territory of Serbia, is in Serbia 16% of the population are ethnic minorities.

    So if I haplogroup in Serbia is 48%, among ethnic Serbs, the percentage may be higher and exceed 50%, it can for example 55% or another, you should make a special investigation, and by region.

    Another issue is the language and culture that is R1a origin, therefore it is once, to own opinion, there was I language spoken by Proto Serbs.

    When and why I people received R1a language is not known, but it could be a long, long time, since the R1a live in the Balkans, 11,000 years if the scientist Klyosov right.

    I think we should explore Vincians Haplogroups because they can be one of the keys to unraveling the secrets.

    So receiving R1a language that could have happened much earlier than in the written history, and this is something that we do not know.

    However, that the original Serbs were I people should not have doubts, at least I have no doubt, and those who seek to prove that the Serbs originally were R1a people would have to find a very strong evidence based on what basis such a claim, but if someone look at the facts of such arguments can hardly be.

    And the word Serb is not Slavic. The word Serb is very very old, term can be found throughout Europe and Asia, including India. There is no agreement what the term in an old I language could exact mean, it is mentioned: a human, a cousin, alive, strong, a guardian, etc.

    To me not be misunderstood, really have nothing against R1a, I’m just a researcher working on the basis of available data from all eras concluded that the Proto Serbs and Serbs from the beginning were the I people.

    ...
    Just talking on the facts about those who are propagandists/ideologists, trying to prove that one people are (falsely) other people, and taking the history of others, not worth discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Another issue is the language and culture that is R1a origin, therefore it is once, to own opinion, there was I language spoken by Proto Serbs.
    ....
    To me not be misunderstood, really have nothing against R1a, I’m just a researcher working on the basis of available data from all eras concluded that the Proto Serbs and Serbs from the beginning were the I people.
    you obviously have something against R1a being related to Serbs...

    thing is there is strong correlation in spread of R1b with I1 and Ra1 with I2... this suggest possible scenario in which R and I people probably were mixed in very ancient history... with part of R-I mix surviving ice age in one refuge and part in another giving rise to R1b-I1 vs R1a-I2 mix..... e.g. it seems that Pasthun Sarbans have mix of R1a and I* haplogroup... and among R1b- I1 people you have tribal names like Suebi and Swedes that are in my opinion derived from same tribal name as Serbs and Sarbans....though there is name Sardinia name for I2a1 people...


    if however R1a and I were separate people, there are high chances that proto-Serbs were originally (thousands or tens thousands years ago) R1a...well, you say yourself that language Serbs speak is R1a language.... and there is saying in Serbia "speak Serbian so that whole world understands you" which probably reflects some past time emotion of being proud that own language was widely accepted by other people.... indo-european languages are closest to PIE in R1a areas from India to Poland...besides, Sorbs in east Germany are most R1a people in the world...word Sibir/Siberia likely origin of tribal name of people who lived there and R1a has two pockets where it is ancient old - among Serbs of Balkan and in Siberia.... that cannot be coincidence.... all this suggests that tribal name Serb was related to R1a... on other hand as Sardinia tribal name is about I2a1 people, it is also highly possible that originally tribal name Serbs was related to haplogroup I.... in fact, I think R and I were mixed long long time ago as I proposed in previous paragraph... and tribal name Serbs is derivation from tribal name that was about R-I mix...


    Quote Originally Posted by StillSRB View Post
    All you need to know about the Y-dna of Serbs and Montenegrins is in the below link.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25997
    Also it's clear that there is not enough research done in Serbia on Y haplogroups.
    Not to mention that the current ethnic definition of a Serb is always changing, when under Ottoman rule a Serb was a Slavic speaker of Orthodox faith with no affiliation to Bulgars. This ruled out all the Serbs who converted to the Islamic faith. Also Serbs from different regions of Serbia and Balkans are very different. A Serb from Kosovo is different from a Serb from Vojvodina, and a Serb from Montenegro is different from a Serb from Timocka Krajna, just like a Serb from Bosnia is different from a Serb from Sumadija. Anyway until further research is done within the different micro regions of Serbia the modern day Serb can't truly be known. Serbs have also on a number of different occasions lost a large amount of the male population, the two most known examples being WWI and the battle of Kosovo, making current Y-DNA a little less reliable when looking into the past for answers.
    I think you are right there....
    we should wait with theories until more data is present for different regions, as Balkan is in general genetically very diverse area.

    btw. if we want to simplify current findings, we could claim that high frequency of haplogroup I makes Serbs related to Germanic people, while ancient old haplogroup R1a makes them forefathers of east European people.... thus, a natural bridge between east and west Europe....

    At first we were confused. The East thought that we were West, while the West considered us to be East. Some of us misunderstood our place in the clash of currents, so they cried that we belong to neither side, and others that we belong exclusively to one side or the other. But I tell you, Ireneus, we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East, to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us, and here on earth—no one
    —St. Sava to Ireneus, 13th century
    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sava_of_Serbia

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    you obviously have something against R1a being related to Serbs...

    thing is there is strong correlation in spread of R1b with I1 and Ra1 with I2... this suggest possible scenario in which R and I people probably were mixed in very ancient history... with part of R-I mix surviving ice age in one refuge and part in another..... e.g. it seems that Pasthun Sarbans have mix of R1a and I* haplogroup... and among R1b- I1 people you have tribal names like Suebi and Swedes that are in my opinion derived from same tribal name as Serbs and Sarbans....


    if however R1a and I were separate people, there are high chances that proto-Serbs were originally (thousands or tens thousands years ago) R1a...well, you say yourself that language Serbs speak is R1a language.... and there is saying in Serbia "speak Serbian so that whole world understands you" which probably reflects some past time emotion of being proud that own language was widely accepted by other people.... indo-european languages are closest to PIE in R1a areas from India to Poland...besides, Sorbs in east Germany are most R1a people in the world...word Sibir/Siberia likely origin of tribal name of people who lived there and R1a has two pockets where it is ancient old - among Serbs of Balkan and in Siberia.... that cannot be coincidence.... tribal name Serb was for sure related to R1a...



    I think you are right there....
    we should wait with theories until more data is present for different regions, as Balkan is in general genetically very diverse area.

    btw. if we want to simplify current findings, we could claim that high frequency of haplogroup I makes Serbs related to Germanic people, while ancient old haplogroup R1a makes them forefathers of east European people.... thus, a natural bridge between east and west Europe....


    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sava_of_Serbia
    How yes no
    I really have nothing against R1a. I just do not see evidence that the Serbs can be, in the Y DNA sense, associated with R1a, except in relation to language and culture.

    My guess is that over thousands of years of living together R1a and I, I people, Proto Serbs, received language and culture R1a people, of course, there are other scenarios.

    Probably the key would be to explore Vincians which haplogroup they belonged.

    It is theoretically possible that the Proto Serbs were both the I and R1a people but again only in terms of culture but not the origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    How yes no
    I really have nothing against R1a. I just do not see evidence that the Serbs can be, in the Y DNA sense, associated with R1a, except in relation to language and culture.

    My guess is that over thousands of years of living together R1a and I, I people, Proto Serbs, received language and culture R1a people, of course, there are other scenarios.

    Probably the key would be to explore Vincians which haplogroup they belonged.

    It is theoretically possible that the Proto Serbs were both the I and R1a people but again only in terms of culture but not the origin.
    I did somewhat edit my post before you posted this....
    because I remembered that Sardinia is related to I2a1....

    yes, I think mix of R and I happened long long time ago...
    about language, I think there was PIE language spoken by R-I mix... however R-I mix was split by some event (perhaps ice age) on two separate parts... one part developed R1b-I1 and centum variant of PIE and other developed R1a and I2 and satem variant of PIE...

    since R1a is ancient old in Balkan, R1a and I2 might have been isolated in Balkan refuge that was connected to Asia minor and Black sea refuge...

    and I am not sure about R1b and I1, it could have been Iberian refuge because I1 is not too present outside of Europe... and because their language deviates more from PIE root which seems to be preserved much better in zone from India to Poland...so the refuge must have been far from there...thus not Black sea, nor Balkan... it had to be Iberia.... I2a1 might have been there as well... I2a1 settled mostly in north Africa (google Garamantes) and in islands like Sardinia... with ice melting R1b and I1 rushed to north and settled in Scandinavia and north Germany

    and there was additional later arrival of more R1b to Europe that filled in south and central Europe...

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    Regarding ancient old R1a in Serb populated areas in Balkan, there are two possibilities:
    1) ancient old pocket comes from stream-like spread that was stretching from south Siberia (22000 years old R1a) and was broken in two parts leaving two pockets: Balkan and south Siberia...
    2) ancient old R1a pocket completely moved from some other place to Balkan in more recent times

    as there is no ancient old R1a along the way from Siberia to Balkan, one could as Klyosov conclude it is case 1, but I would be more cautious there...

    I think it may also be the case that it arrived with Serbs...
    reason I say this is that Seneca speaks of Serians

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    Now these Serians (also named Seres by some authors) are a tribe that lives both around Danube and in what is now north west China north of Himalayas, but this location can be seen as south Siberia or very close to it. This makes Serians good candidate for ancient old R1a pockets... I argue that besides ancient old R1a, they also carried haplogroup I...

    Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

    the arc of Serians from India to China is likely reflected today in Pashtun Sarbans... who by looking at their spread and spread of haplogroup I in Asia, besides R1a also carry some I haplogroup that makes them stand out from non-I haplogroup environment...


    look at arc of Serians from China to India clearly visible in spread of haplogroup I..it really is arc...



    now look carefully how Pasthun Sarbans match big part of this arc pretty well in Afghanistan and Pakistan



    Seres/Serians are known for silk production and are by Pliny the Elder written as Serve

    that beyond the Emodian Mountains they look towards17 the Serve, whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce;
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...&redirect=true

    *Emodian mountains are Himalayas..and north of them are Seres who trade silk...

    Seneca mentions their braveness to cross frozen Danube, to live unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian mountains, and also the ones who control the Red sea

    now, the ones in Caspian highlands may be Serboi tribe


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

    interestingly, Serboi/Serbi lived there north of Caucasian Albania same like on Balkan Serbia is north of Albania... coincidence?

    the Serians who control the Red sea I can only relate to Sabaeans/Sheba but I have no genetic indication that this is correct...they would be remainder of Sherdana sea peoples which left single toponym - Serbonian bog (it was lake in Egypt)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba

    The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples



    but note that Seres also dwell upon mount Athos in time of Aristotle...

    Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

    Now in time of Aristotle, we have Serians/Seres living upon (north of?) mount Athos..

    location of Serians both around Danube, north of mount Athos, and in south Siberia suggests that ancient old pocket of R1a is related to Serians and relation of Serians to tribal names such as Serve/Sarbans/Serboi tells us that they are likely to be proto-Serbs... note that this is not only about ancient old R1a pocket moving around as haplogroup I also shows correlation with spread of Serians...

    if we look for similar tribal names to Serians north of mount Athos they could have been known as Scordisci and Serdi...in my opinion Serdi and Scordisci is about same people but Celtic and Thracian version of tribal name because Serdi originally Celtic people enter Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci and become thracanized...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

    expansion of Celtic Serdi perhaps also is the reason for I2a2 spread along west coasts of Asia minor (though this can as well be earlier spread)




    now regarding Scordisci and Serdi being two versions of same tribal name (because Celtic Serdi came to Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci) Scordisci can be read Sordisci (same as Sclaveni are in fact Slaveni) and -isci ending is due to them being Celtic...which igives same "srd" root in trobal names Scordisci and Serdi

    similarly Thracians are same tribal name as Rascians (see medieval Serbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia)/Russians/Rasena (tyrhsenian /Etruscan)


    In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

    Etruscan areas show clear correlation with R1a spread in Italy




    Thracian tribal name is about R1a people...
    Scordisci might be Serians and mix of R1a and I haplogroup...

    back to Serboi living north of Caucasian Albania,
    Scordisci live north of Illyrians and are according to Strabo mixed with Illyrians and their allies...

    I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
    The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
    The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=

    Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

    now this may explain why haplogroup E is so large in numbers in Serbs (also in Bosnian Serbs)...
    Illyrian component would be E-V13, tribal name may origin from Serians which makes them mix of R1a and I*, and classifying them as Galatae would be about dominant I2 (some authors relate original Celts/Galatae to Germanic people (haplogroup I) with word German meaning original, some relate it to Gomer people who match I2a2 island in asia minor and its spread north of Black sea... also there are indicators that Veneti were I2a as well and that among Celts prominent tribe were Celtic Veneti from Britanny...see more about original Gomer/Cimmerians at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...659#post363659 and of original Celts issue on http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...658#post363658 )

    now, in Celtic areas of prehistoric Iberia we find Kaladuni (ancestors of Scotish people also known as Albanah in Gaelic) next to Seurbi, and in Illyria we find Chelidoni close to Serdi...we saw that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians...so Celtic Iberia would be map of Balkan mix...coincidence?
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...929#post365929

    well, let's see whether Scordisci can be Seres who dwelt upon mount Athos...
    on first view one expect Scordisci in north Serbia around Danube and in Pannonia....

    but Serdi and Scordisci did also live much more to the south, e.g. we can find them in south Serbia on this map




    The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. . Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

    Scordisci are the origin of name Sar mountain...Sar mountain is practically going along border of Macedonia and Albania...



    If we look again to map above that is showing Illyrian/Hellenic/Thracian tribes and Serdi and Scordisci, It is reasonable to consider that on one side of Sar mountain lived Illyrians and on other Scordisci and perhaps to them related people Paioni (same as Pannoni and Scordisci are spread in Pannonia)...

    They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

    now, this zone of influence from Macedonia to Bohemia, explains Serbs coming from Bohemia to Balkan in 7th century...

    Scordisci are Celtic people related to Boii, Serbs come in 7th century to Balkan from land of Boika (Bohemia named after Boii)

    Scordisci might have retracted to north with Roman expansion and came back with weakening of Roman empire.... location of Scordisci is consistent with mention of Serians around Danube as Seneca the younger who mentions Serians around Danube lived (c. 1 BC – AD 65) and in that time frame Scordisci are still located around Danube

    Scordisci at 1AD


    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula
    , and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
    and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    (translation of early medieval Russian document from year 1113th that narrates about history of Slavic people...read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle)

    note that in time it is written Bulgaria and Hungary were neighboring states, which means this is about proto-Slavic people area around Danube from Black sea to Bohemia including parts of Serbia and Romania around Danube... this in antic people matches Thracians, Scordisci (or Serdi), and Pannoni....

    note that also I2a2 shows spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and also spread along Carpathian mountains which is where it was pushed with advance of Roman empire...

    Danube


    Carpathians


    Both Danube and Carpathians are natural borders and obstacles to spread coming from south....
    It is very logical that tribes south of Danube would (when systematically attacked from south) cross Danube in order to use Danube as natural border, so Danube was one line of defense from Roman spread and when this line was broken retreat is made to Carpathians and behind Carpathians, that is to Vistula region...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 26-02-11 at 15:10.

  25. #75
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    Guys!

    I am very sorry that your discussion time to time goes to politics. You better have to avoid this and be based only on facts. Both Garrick and Dejavu are right and wrong time to time, but I did not see that Garrick manipulated data.

    I lived in Serbia for many years, speak and read this language, know the situation and customs, and I am very interested in the history of Balkan. I read a lot of academic literature about Balkan based on the ancient greek, latin and orient documents.
    Besides, I contribited into the Russian forum on this topic for several years and I understand a lot about haplogroups and math and biology around this. Unfortunately, I am very limited in time. So I will put more information later (weeks?), but now I have to tell several things which I find important for your futher discussion.

    - History and population of the Balkan Peninsula in the prehistoric and historic time was very complicated, a lot of layers. And a result, there definitely should be mostly European and in part Aasian Haplogroups, and any simple interpretation cannot be done.

    - Slavs populated Balkan in 7th centure. They were definitely from different Slavic tribes, not only from White Serbs (Beli Serby). The contribution of the White Serbs in population of Balkan was not yet scientifically proven, but the last data on the subclades of the haplogroup I2a rather confirms this contribution. Another essential direction was from Carpathian, and probably, some others places.

    - Definitely, Macedonians and Serbs are very close genetically and in language, and these nations respect one another very much, but it is wrong to use the same name "Serbs" for all Balkan Slavs. The Slav nations on Balkan were formed from different Slavic tribes.

    - The idea of "scientist Aklyosov" about the very old R1a from Balkan is very disputable ( as a lot of his other ideas) and in any way understood in a wrong way here.
    First, according his calculations, not ALL R1a from Balkan are "old”, but only a small part (<10%, one small branch on the tree). All the other R1a groups are younger and definitely came in 7th century.
    Second, even this small branch could be wrong, because (1) the calculations were based on the old, not confirmed data on haplotypes, and (2) the subclades on R1a were not taken into consideration (different subclades should come into different branches, but they were put into one branch). In general, he likes to distribute his not confirmed ideas very wide, so you should not take each his word as the last true. Moreover, in general, the methods they use are very-very approximate, and, unfortunately, it does not look that they could be seriously improved.
    - So, the most probably, we will know the true about the ancient DNA in Balkan only when it is measured in the remnants from the old graves, as it is being done now for other places as Germany, France and so on.
    In addition, I looked quick some maps of this Forum with proposed distribution haplogroups and directions, and found that some of them are definitely not updated. For example, the haplogroups from Tarim Basin Mummieswere measured, and they are mostly R1a, while R1b is indicatedon the map.
    If you have any question I can answer, I will be happy to do this.

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