Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

Waves of Balkan settlement

Not for Sprinkles who cannot develop discussion in the accepted way, I would like to put some short summarized information about the settlement of the Balkans, which could help for the interpretation of the facts, related to haplogroups. If something is not the facts taken from academic editions, it is indicated as my opinion. I'd like to discuss only scientifically accepted facts or scientifically based suggestions under internationally accepted rules of equity and tolerance.

[FONT=&quot]--- The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians. However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--- 2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--- 4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--- Gepids. They were also German people. They also could have some R1a haplogroups, as Slavs were their neighbors .[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]---5th century - Raids of Huns. Huns are of unknown origin; Chinese, Turkish and Iranian origin was suggested. Who knows which haplogroups they brought?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--- 5-7th Centuries - Avars raids. Again the origin is unknown, probably of mixed origins. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--- Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A lot of things about that could be read in [/FONT]Wiki. I am not allowed to put here addresses.

[FONT=&quot]So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]It is also a mistake to relate one haplogroup to one nation, whichever this haplogroup is. It could be that in prehistoric time, the tribes had less diversity in haplogroups. But even measurement in 2-5 years old groves in Europe and Asia already show some admixture. Especially now, after all this migrations, all the nations have mixed haplogroups, which reflects their history.[/FONT]
 
The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians.
Albanians are not ancient anthic tribe and if you try to connect them with modern Albanians it is stupidity per se.
However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.
Before any Indoeuropeans appeared in Balkan there was plenty of E1b, J2, G2a and other neolithic haplogroups there since the I haplogroup members migrated in northeastern direction in early neolithic. So, if the Illyrians and Thracians were Indoeuropeans, they could come on Balkan during Indoeuropean expansion in Bronze age, but in that time there was no I haplogroup on Balkan.
2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.
Honestly, I don't see any connection between Celts, modern Romania and R1b haplogroup as you suggested.
4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.
Goths were in Dalmatia and Balkan only for 200 years and wasn't so numerous to leave some significant genetic trace. Unexpected higher frequency of I1 haplogroup in Balkan maybe is due to them.
These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.
Nobody till now can say where exactly was White Serbia, but wherever it was it has nothing in common with Gothic migrations.
The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.
Slavs had some problems with Avars, but this raping episode is something what I heard for first time. Was it on CNN?
Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.
Very naive oversight of history I must say. Byzantine historians brings us totally different states.
Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.
So the Panonia was source, unexploited well of I2a, everybody who passes through Panonia will catch some I2a. Raping again?
8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called “Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.
Right of the first night is one of urban legends of Otoman period, not historical fact.
So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.
Your knowledge of Balkan history is more than poor and light-minded.
Honestly I was expected more after such bombastic announcement of yours.
 
Cell have you ever wonder that R1a could be Germanic,?
Sprinkles have you ever thought that I2a could be slavic?

R1a pass from minor asia to Greece and then central Europe and then To North Baltic, and from there they invade Russia volga river

just a scenario

Ρωςς Ross people are considered Vikings from baltic that invade Volga river,

in fact I believe that R1a has nothing to do with slavic,
and Clear slavic is I2,

in fact even if R1a came from north baltic they simply took I2 language, and make I2 to move back and south
a small prove of That is Bulgaria and Serbia
in east Bulgaria (varna) Bulgarian language was spoken (slavic) but no invasion of slavic people, why?
Serbia has a small difference in language that connects them with bohemia and more east to ucraine lithuania, but the differences with Bulgarian are almost very low to zero,
croatia slovenia although more west to central Europe and italy (german and roman speaking) still conected with Bulgarian language
why? probably the slavic language was the I2 language, and R1a (Viking) invaders accepted the slavic language
I keep my precautions to the above,
but I am mention it just to make some people think and again to put the problem

just a possible scenario
Hypothesis <->Thracian = proto Slavic

on the other hand if i2a is Germanic (no slavic speaking before 500AD) then slavic invasion in south slavic areas with R1a and a 15% Ydna change the language of people from slovenia to bulgaria wow,
and 50% Ydna in some areas in Germany and did not change language to them?


hmmmmm

the other possible scenario
Hypothesis <->Thracian = Germanic relative language


a 4rth scenario which combines R1a with I2a ...
I don't know,
simply i just want someones to think.
 
Maybe the south slavic people all speak slavic because thats the language they were christianized in? similar to how middle eastern people speak arabic because that's what islamized them?
 
Serbs are majority Paleo-Balkan in genetic substratum with some Slavic. There are also minor contributions from Germanics (Goths) and Celts (Scordisci).
 
Serbs are majority Paleo-Balkan in genetic substratum with some Slavic. There are also minor contributions from Germanics (Goths) and Celts (Scordisci).

Yes, I talk all the time.

Serbs are not Slavs in origin, the word Serb is not Slavic, otherwise there are indications that the Serbs were mentioned in ancient Greek texts, I will post it once.

Second is the cultural influence and yet someone should reveal when and how the Serbs received Slavic language, the key thing is to find old I language.
 
Yes, I talk all the time.

Serbs are not Slavs in origin, the word Serb is not Slavic, otherwise there are indications that the Serbs were mentioned in ancient Greek texts, I will post it once.

Second is the cultural influence and yet someone should reveal when and how the Serbs received Slavic language, the key thing is to find old I language.


so that makes us to conclude that I2 people are not the majoruity of Slavic and R1a is the Slavic majority Y DNA,

In that case could I2 be a germanic speaking, ?????

means Thracians were simmilar to germanic? or another language
 
so that makes us to conclude that I2 people are not the majoruity of Slavic and R1a is the Slavic majority Y DNA,

In that case could I2 be a germanic speaking, ?????

means Thracians were simmilar to germanic? or another language

Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:
 
Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:

Finno-Ugric is not bad proposal as Serbs do have haplogroup N admixture while their other neighbours (including other south Slavs) do not....

but I think I2a2 was Celtic

according to Byzantine emperor, Serbs come from land of Boiki where their neighbour is Francia and white Croatia... he also states that Serbs lived in land of Boiki from always?? there they were also called "white"?... he states Croats were also called "white"

now, Vindelici/Veneti/Venedi have a a name that in Celtic language means white... we know that Jordanes says that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti... also at least one of Veneti tribes is known to play prominent role in Celtic world... Celtic Veneti lived in Britanny...


name Boiki is derived from Celtic tribal name Boii... Boii is origin of names Bohemia and Bavaria marking location where Boii lived from always till they disappeared from history...

spread of Celtic Boii derived tribes to south might have gone under name of Celtic Scordisci... position of Scordisci is changing along Danube and related rivers from Slovakia till Greece... I2a2 shows spread along Danube...

Serdi are Celts who became Thracians
they come to Thrace from area of Scordisci, and it is almost obvious that Scordisci and Serdi are same tribal name just Celtic and Thracian version...

it is known that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians (Strabo)
also Illyrians probably were close relation to Celtic people as:

According to the Illyrian Wars of Appian, Illyrius was the son of the Cyclops Polyphemus and his wife Galatea with siblings Celtus and Galas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

Serdi were neighbours to Illyrian Chelidoni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

in pre-Celtic part of prehistoric Iberia Seurbi live next to Caladuni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iberia_300BC.svg

thus, it is worth considering that tribal names Seurbi = Serdi and Chelidoni = Caladuni (and according to Scotish myth of origin = Kaledoni)

with spread of Roman empire many tribes moved to north....
Russian primary chronicle records early Slavs as living in around Danube in what was in year 1113 (when chronicle was written down) Hungary and Bulgaria (which includes areas around Danube in Serbia and Romania of today)... but moved north when Roman empire conquered those areas...

Rascian and Russian are same troibal name as Thracian
as we can see in Etruscans who are called Tyhrsenians by Greeks while they call themselves Rasena

tribal name Tyhrsenian/Rasena that is Thracian/Rascia/Russian corresponds to R1a spread...

what confuses me is Slavic language... where did it come from?
Etruscans are likely R1a and speak non-IE... thus R1a in Asia minor didnot speak IE

Thracians speak IE

also, why did Celtic languages disappear almost completely in continental Europe?
 
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.

According to Ken Nordtvedt I2a2a, called by him Dinaric, arose 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. Around 300 CE it has split into two varieties - N (northern) - older and S (southern) - younger.[30] In 2010 Nordtvedt suppoused that I2a2a-Dinaric is just too young to not have been a result of a sudden expansion on the Balkans. He has presumed it was the Slavic expansion from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.
South Slavs - Genetics
 
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.
South Slavs - Genetics

In my opinion it is incorrect to say that I2a2 came to Balkan with Slavs, and correct is that I2a2 returned to Balkan with Slavs...

it was pushed north with spread of Roman empire, and it returned back when Roman empire was collapsing....

Thracian language was closest to Baltic languages....and Slavic language was probably its derivative while at least part of I2a2 was perhaps Celtic speaking.... if this is the case question is when and why did I2a2 switch to Thracian derived languages...
 
Thracian language was closest to Baltic languages....

That is a projection of communist Bulgarian scientist Ivan Duridanov who had a goal to connect pre and post migration period Bulgarian population.
 
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.


South Slavs - Genetics


What happened with I bearers in the Balkans, they all disappeared and suddenly I haplogroup appeared with the Slavs???

It is absolutely impossible that R1a clan originated in Central Asia, and I clan originated in Anatolia and came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago, are the same population!!!

These are just attempts to make some kind of clasp I bearers with the Slavs, but it is illogical.

But Serbs are not Slavs and there is evidence.

I have already given a lot of sources where Tribals = Serbs and Tribals were the Thracian tribe, and I think the participants is making a mistake that the Thracians were R1a, it is likely that the Thracians were I carriers.

Certainly, should do further research.

And it can be find the link: Lydia (Asia Minor), Thrace, Rascia (the Serbs), Rasena (Etruscans).
 
What happened with I bearers in the Balkans, they all disappeared and suddenly I haplogroup appeared with the Slavs???

new wave of I merged with older waves of I....

It is absolutely impossible that R1a clan originated in Central Asia, and I clan originated in Anatolia and came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago, are the same population!!!

25 000 years ago is long long time ago...

These are just attempts to make some kind of clasp I bearers with the Slavs, but it is illogical.

why is it illogical?
nations of today are of mixed origin...
why should this not be the case for tribal groups from 1500 years ago?

But Serbs are not Slavs and there is evidence.
what evidence?

I have already given a lot of sources where Tribals = Serbs and Tribals were the Thracian tribe, and I think the participants is making a mistake that the Thracians were R1a, it is likely that the Thracians were I carriers.
it is not known what were haplogroups of Thracians...
we can only guess...


And it can be find the link: Lydia (Asia Minor), Thrace, Rascia (the Serbs), Rasena (Etruscans).
Russia/Russians?

How do you explain that there is no I2a2 at all in Etruscan/Rasena lands, but there is R1a that exactly matches their spread?
 
No Shetop
I agree with Garrick

In south Italy we have a quite big R1a % in area sarendino (ex Greek colony) and not in areas near,
Meaning that part of R1a is ancient that past from anatolia not from north,
offcourse that R1a coulb be Normands if Normands have enough R1a, but it is in Greek population,
about paleolithic I
lets see
R1b from west celtic,
R1b from east anatolian
J2 is greek probably 5000 Bc or before but not in central balkans
E-v13 came at 2000 Bc (dienekes article) to peloponese and expand in mountain areas north slowly
so the only remain is I2,
the change that I2 enter at 500 Bc is not so correct with me,
someone should live before
exept if they were J2 people and were pushed south by I2
or R1b anatolian,
R1a is enough to be ancient,
but not to be predominant,
an analyst can go back time with mutation time 30 per generecation and find how old is I2 in Balkans,

I agree with Garrick that I2 is the old Y Dna,
only R1b anatolian could be older than I2 in balkans,
altough I am maybe wrong, but I dont think so


I still believe that Thracians were not R1a,
not the second nation after India,
I2 coulb be second nation (thracians)
(Thracians are the 2nd most big nation (population)

But there was another R1a branch that came from Persia to Greece and Balkans and Italy
If R1a is far ancient in Greece,
or slavs manage to reach and settle in Greek colonies of Magna Grecia
if someone knows the data well search in area Lokri and Sarendo in south italy,
one has R1a one Not,

about Etruscans
also Greek Τυρρενιιοι or Ετρουριοι -> means tower people en turris = in towers
from Turris also Trojer
see greek cities Tyris (Τυρις-νθος) Troy
the Etrurians were Pelasgic
Pelasgic is third branch of GrecoAryan
Aryan split to Armenian Persian and Pelasgic-Phoenician
Pelasgic split to Aegean(Greek) Etrurian(Latio) Thracian
Pelasgic also split to Phoenisian
aegean pelasgic and phoenician invade to Illyria (ancient Illyrian)
Anatolian languages have influence of Pelasgic and Hettit
Thracian are consider the middle
In Thracian we find Hettit Persian and Pelasgic, means that was aryan language
A % of words that past to other languages comes from romanization
in around Etruria we have near enough J2 and G minor asian

many times I said the the Greco-Aryan is better to expalin ancient civilizations
than the IE approcah,
the obsidian valley, the Cappadokia(and armenia) or the Syria shoyld be first aryan speaking area

The I2a people should be in Here at pelasgic times and balkans
if Slavic language is adopted to I2a people then Thracian could be Proto-germanic or proto-Goth
the I2a in Spain and N africa follows the raid and movement of Visigoths and Vandals
Gothic Languge? is relative germanic?

Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:
Although it seems Funny for you

Can you explain the explain the Gaete-Thracians, Goeth-Thracians
as also the ancient Greek pelasgic word Caieta (Gaete people who live in caves, Tyrrageti people live in towers, troglodytae live in trogle, straw pole houses, Thyssagatae bush culture Thyssan Greek bush, hole in forest 'Tzuma' with bushes, no trees in area only bushes, Massagatae, the mass μαζα the central of getae)
This gaete tribes are very ancient as Tomyris Queen
besides the connection Dachoi (Greek) with Persian Dage(stan) Scaugdae Thracians with persian Sogdiane
maybe Jordanes Getica is mistaken in the begin, and Goth people are Thracian and Scythian speaking
probably near Germanic if Goth is consider relative of Germanic language


Shetop

I don't know about celtic but in ancient Greek there is enough connection with Germanic as PIE
they are consider non Pelasgic, but exist from Hommers time,
Meaning that Thracian could be a far beyond language relative to germanic

If Gaete are R1a (although I don't believe it) then i2a is Illyrian (Illyricum) or South thracian,
If Gaete are I2a as the rest thracians in Balkans then you have a good answer to Thracian being a relative Germanic language, or even pre-Germanic
Zalmoxis o Kronos (the god that Greeks fight to send away)
 
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How do you explain that there is no I2a2 at all in Etruscan/Rasena lands, but there is R1a that exactly matches their spread?

The Romans destroyed the Etruscans.

"Slowly, over the course of the next century, the Etruscan cities would be added to the Roman fold one by one. In various forms over this time, they would side with various opponents of the Romans in desperate attempts to break their hold on power in central Italy. The obscurity of the Etruscan people, however, in the perspective of regional power, was inevitable by this point. Their lack of unity and cooperation, despite joining various enemies of Rome in the waning years of Italian independence, led directly to their own demise. By 273 BC, Etruria and the Etruscans would be completely within the domain of Rome. "

www.unrv.com/empire/veii-and-the-etruscans.php

The question is how many does the Etruscans survived.

R1a of whom you speak may be very different populations and has nothing to do with the Etruscans.
 
I agree with Garrick that I2 is the old Y Dna

Since it looks important to many here, I will say it - it is indeed probable that some I2 branches entered Europe (including Balkans) before E-V13. We can see it by different I2* subclades found in Europe, with highest frequency in Crete (5-6%). There is also I2a* in Alpine regions which appears to be very old, and a couple of other older I2 branches, all found in Europe.

But now look at this, we have I2a2a-Disles only found in British Islands and I2a2a-Dinaric is on opposite side of Europe! What I want to say is that each of those branches from above had their own history. And there are even more I2a1 with its own 6 subbranches, than there is I2a2b-Isles, I2b1, I2b2 and others are also possible.

In order to understand what happened you have to analyse every I2 branch separately, and if someone just says that whole I2 are these or those people I think he will never find the truth.

And at the end, whatever happened with I2 and E-V13, discussion about which Y-DNA has more rights is completely out of the line. No people will live better because genetic research shows this or that.
 
The Romans destroyed the Etruscans.
R1a of whom you speak may be very different populations and has nothing to do with the Etruscans.[/QUOTE]
destroyed is not equal killed them all...

what other populations?
Romans? why is there no R1a that matches their initial spread?
Celtic Boii? Why does spread not match their location?
Germanic people? perhaps.. I need to look more in locations of Germanic people in Italy

what are the odds for random spreads to match exact curves as R1a in Italy and Etruscans?
what are the chances that the area in Asia minor from which Etruscans moved to Europe shows hole in R1a spread there?

now find me such indications that will relate Romans or Celts with R1a? I see none...

493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png

R1A_map.jpg
 

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