Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

[how yes no 2]

sea peoples invasion explains how Serians mentioned by Seneca
are Cimmerians, and related to Veneti and how both Serians and Veneti are same race - I2 people

Serians are without doubt the source of tribal name of Serbs and of I2a2 genetics of modern Serbs

more on thread about sea peoples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post371381

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post371418

[how yes no 2]

I am puzzled about R1a and I2a in proto-Serbs, but perhaps when searching for tribal identity I should look in mitohondrial lineages as Serbs tribal name probably origin from queen of Sheba, and we know that Ptolemy records Serboi as living next to Amazones


from article about genetic study of Etruscans...these are near eastern components in mtDNA of Tuscany....


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/

note how core of R0a is in area of ancient Sheba
there we find legendary queen of Sheba, known in south of her country as Makeda, and by Arabs (thus on east of her country) as Balkis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

this maps both by names and by geographical orientation to Serbs, to Macedonians south of Serbs, and to Bulgars east of them

look again at R0a in Europe - clearly Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgars and Etruscans... no one else nowhere around

but this indicates that there never was big movement of people!!

what could have happened is that pressed by Roman empire spreading part of Serbs, or Scordisci/Serdi goes up the Danube to Bohemia and to return after Roman empire is falling a part... and in same way that part of Bulgars retreat along shores of Black sea to Volga river and to return when Roman empire is falling a part....

this is in accordance with Russian primary chronicle

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied
the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and
the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of
Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

[zanipolo]

look again at R0a in Europe - clearly Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgars and Etruscans... no one else nowhere around

what does this mean ?

In that map I see - Macedomians, hellenic, epirots, dacians, illyrians and maybe on the fringes , the celtics


is this true on the meaning of serbs below?
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Serb

[how yes no 2]

I made nice summary of all my posts about white Serians...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post374710

[how yes no 2]

I would postulate possibility that Dorians were actually same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans...

Homeric Dera means fleece

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post365872

Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Seneca captures world spread of Serians:
in Europe living around Danube (as Scordisci/Serdi in that time do), ruling over Scythians, in Caspian higlands living among Sarmatians (as Serboi/Serbi do), in Asia where they make fleece, and on red sea (possible match are Sabeans)

369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
.....
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...

Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english

Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....

The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

thus, Seri = day
Zorya = dawn
Sera = Dera = fleece..
Seri = day and bull

The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....

Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these



this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....

land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...

Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


Zorya is also associated with moon

Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

thus,
Dera = Sera = fleece
Zorya = dawn
dan = day
Seri = day and bull
Sar = moon

Sar+dan = moon+day

moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")

The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...

isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...


isn't it same motive as celtic cross?


Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart

Scordus mountain named after Scordisci is in turikish "Shar Dagh" thus almost exactly the same as sherdana...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

clearly, Sherdana must have contributed to Kurds as their ancestors are only logical explanation for sea peoples puzzle considering the order of conquest of sea people

A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. [ie: cut down]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

order of contest Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya clearly places invading people in location of Kurds



Kurds have significant I2a-Din

back to Zorya...

The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

the home of white Serbs is Bohemia, where they also originally dwellt...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

Gomer or Cimmerians are thought to have settled Cappadocia
in Strabo's times both tribes of Cappodocians = white-Syrians

Serbs are called white-Serbs... other people who origin from Serica have names like Sarbans, Sarta, white-Sart... Cimmerians are white-Syrians which according to Strabo's text in fact meant white Sumerians..

and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.

2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

archeological findings of Thraco-cimmerians = spread of I2a-Din in Europe




and spread of early Slavs


manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...

in the end note the Siraces, who live among Sarmatians (most hellenized of all Sarmatians) and are thought to be same as Serboi (Serboi are those Serians who live in Caspian highlands unguarded from Sarmatians)

The Siraces (Greek: Sirakoi, Latin: Siraci, also Siraceni and Seraci[1]) were a hellenized Sarmatian tribe that inhabited Sarmatia Asiatica; the coast of Achardeus at the Black Sea south of the Caucasus mountains, Siracena[1] is mentioned by Tacitus as one of their settlements. They were said to be relatively small nation but with great moral.
...
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

[Dorianfinder]

hi yes no - first you convinced yourself that I2 was ancient Veneti marker and now you are convinced that I2 is the ancient Serb marker. Then you jump from Serb to Doric. Your posts could be much clearer, try to use Occam's razor (law of parsimony), you know a lot but you use your express your knowledge in a generally reckless manner (maps). I apologize for being so direct but I think you can make a great contribution if you choose to express yourself in short, succinct statements with a short conclusion to sum it up (note: you will need I2 frequencies in regions settled by the Serbs and Dorians). If you do this it will be easier to follow and more people may join in your discussion, just a thought.

[Bodin]

Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.

Maybe I have a clue who were I peoples - Sarmatians . Pliny Elder mention Sarmatian tribes of Serboi ( Serbs) and Heruvatoi ( Croats ) ..Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" -Serbian word ledina means the same ,and its cognate to Germanic word land , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. Boiki do not call themselves that, its an egzonime , because they use word bo same to Bosnian bona or bo/bolan that is used in Mačva in Serbia ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Tacitus say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians ( others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria, Apenins-Italy , Asia Minor ) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family, Serbians comed from Boiki- Bohemia caled after Celtic tribe Boii, in Bohemia there is 3-4 times higher procent of I2a2 then in rest of Czech- 14,6% in Klatovy and 9,2% in Pisek , rest about 4% ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani , today Volga Tatars in this republic has 18,4% I2a2) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Sarmatian auxiliars - king Arthur) , Germany(Bavaria is also caled after Boii and could be part of Boiki , in southern Germany there is 5% I2a , and in the rest 1-2% ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving , and its not Slavic , it is spread in Slavic countries because they use to live on same lands and mixed a lot. When King of Germany Heinrich conquered White Serbs he bild fortres of Meissen in place of their main city Gaza , so center of White Serbs was not in todays Lužica but further west , so Sorabs are mainly descedants of Lugii , Celtic tribe , they have 60% of R1a . That could be partialy because Czechs rulers kill a lot of them during wars in Xth century , and there was probably a lot of raping .
There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see.They even use to speak simillar languague to Illyrian.
There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
Eneti were from Paphlagonia and there is also higher percent of I2a2 , displaced a bit to the west due to Turks conquering , they settled in today Veneto there , in neighbouring Trevizo(9%) and Slovenia(22%) is higher I2a2 than in the rest of Italy.Same roots as Eneti has Vandals , Anti , Veneti , Wends,... In northeast China - Xiangyang use to live nation Yuezhi who were caucasian , they have same roots like Alan tribe of Asii , and Yazigi .It is interesting that German gods are separated in two groups Vaeniri and Aesiri , maybe the names had to do someting with worshiping of particular group of gods .
Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K*.Also there is K* haplogroup in north Ossetia from 0% in Digora up to 21,7% in Zamankul.
I would like to say that I am not claiming that Serbs do not have Slavic origins at all , I only say that they ancestor were Sarmatians , who use to mix a lot with Slavs , so Serbian mthDNA is much closer to Slavic than yDNA , so Serbians ( and Croatians ) are Slavs but mostly by mother line .
My theory about haplogroup I is that it emerged in the aeria of Pamir in Tadjikistan from IJ and then gradualy moved toward the Europe . In Xingyang in China use to live nation of Yuezhi whose name is very similar to the name of Yazigi one of the Alan tribe, name Alan meen " one that live in stepes" .Today in Xingyang live Uygurs with 60% of R1a haplogroup and 33% of I haplogroup . That I from Pamir give Germanic I1 and I2b and Median I2a moving gradualy over Central Asia and mixing with R1a which one lived there.
There is story in Herodothus that Scythians were moved from they lands in Central Asia by Masagets in to the land of Chimmerians which is then given the name of Scythia . And Masagets and Tisagets are ancestors of Alans - later they conjoined and taked name Alan - one thet live in steppes .These movement of Masagets was probably in the same time like movement of Medes on Zagros and they were relatives .
Serbian and Croatian titles župan i ban are Iranian , Herodotus say that name of first ruler of Medes was Deyoka , acctualy that is a title dah yanka -lord of nation = župan.

[zanipolo]

Maybe I have a clue who were I peoples - Sarmatians . Pliny Elder mention Sarmatian tribes of Serboi ( Serbs) and Heruvatoi ( Croats ) ..Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" -Serbian word ledina means the same ,and its cognate to Germanic word land , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. Boiki do not call themselves that, its an egzonime , because they use word bo same to Bosnian bona or bo/bolan that is used in Mačva in Serbia ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Tacitus say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians ( others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria, Apenins-Italy , Asia Minor ) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family, Serbians comed from Boiki- Bohemia caled after Celtic tribe Boii, in Bohemia there is 3-4 times higher procent of I2a2 then in rest of Czech- 14,6% in Klatovy and 9,2% in Pisek , rest about 4% ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani , today Volga Tatars in this republic has 18,4% I2a2) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Sarmatian auxiliars - king Arthur) , Germany(Bavaria is also caled after Boii and could be part of Boiki , in southern Germany there is 5% I2a , and in the rest 1-2% ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving , and its not Slavic , it is spread in Slavic countries because they use to live on same lands and mixed a lot. When King of Germany Heinrich conquered White Serbs he bild fortres of Meissen in place of their main city Gaza , so center of White Serbs was not in todays Lužica but further west , so Sorabs are mainly descedants of Lugii , Celtic tribe , they have 60% of R1a . That could be partialy because Czechs rulers kill a lot of them during wars in Xth century , and there was probably a lot of raping .
There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see.They even use to speak simillar languague to Illyrian.
There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
Eneti were from Paphlagonia and there is also higher percent of I2a2 , displaced a bit to the west due to Turks conquering , they settled in today Veneto there , in neighbouring Trevizo(9%) and Slovenia(22%) is higher I2a2 than in the rest of Italy.Same roots as Eneti has Vandals , Anti , Veneti , Wends,... In northeast China - Xiangyang use to live nation Yuezhi who were caucasian , they have same roots like Alan tribe of Asii , and Yazigi .It is interesting that German gods are separated in two groups Vaeniri and Aesiri , maybe the names had to do someting with worshiping of particular group of gods .
Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K*.Also there is K* haplogroup in north Ossetia from 0% in Digora up to 21,7% in Zamankul.
I would like to say that I am not claiming that Serbs do not have Slavic origins at all , I only say that they ancestor were Sarmatians , who use to mix a lot with Slavs , so Serbian mthDNA is much closer to Slavic than yDNA , so Serbians ( and Croatians ) are Slavs but mostly by mother line .
My theory about haplogroup I is that it emerged in the aeria of Pamir in Tadjikistan from IJ and then gradualy moved toward the Europe . In Xingyang in China use to live nation of Yuezhi whose name is very similar to the name of Yazigi one of the Alan tribe, name Alan meen " one that live in stepes" .Today in Xingyang live Uygurs with 60% of R1a haplogroup and 33% of I haplogroup . That I from Pamir give Germanic I1 and I2b and Median I2a moving gradualy over Central Asia and mixing with R1a which one lived there.
There is story in Herodothus that Scythians were moved from they lands in Central Asia by Masagets in to the land of Chimmerians which is then given the name of Scythia . And Masagets and Tisagets are ancestors of Alans - later they conjoined and taked name Alan - one thet live in steppes .These movement of Masagets was probably in the same time like movement of Medes on Zagros and they were relatives .
Serbian and Croatian titles župan i ban are Iranian , Herodotus say that name of first ruler of Medes was Deyoka , acctualy that is a title dah yanka -lord of nation = župan.

Do you have proof that Serbians are sarmatians ?. Since Goths resided on the black sea area for 250 years before the invasion of Roman empire and that the Germanic bastanae tribe was there before the Goths, seems to indicate that the sarmatians and syctians are further East. maybe between the black and caspanian seas

[Milovan]

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on syllables like ser, sar, ras etc a lot of it could be just wishful thinking. I do believe that all slavs are a hybrid people made up of scythian, sarmatian, cimmerian, greek bosporus and indigenous balkan peoples (possibly illyrian or pre illyrian vinca). I think y dna hap I is indigenous to the balkans and it migrated to the steppes where it mixed with scythian and sarmatian peoples of the steppes. Serbs and Croats kept their earlier Alan tribal names, possibly veneti, antes etc are earlier tribal names as well. In Iranian theories of yugoslavs you always hear about slavicization as if they are not slavs, i think that's wrong, yes there was slavicization but it was the melding of Hap I balkan people moving towards the steppes and the aryan hap R1a and R1b peoples already there that created slavs.
I also believe germanics to be a hybrid people of scythian, celtic and old european (hap I) as well.
I believe serbs and croats were originally a mix of R1a and I2 but R1a predominantly, then when they invaded the balkans and settled there mixing with balkan inhabitants they absorbed even more I2 (then they already had) and other greco-balkan haplogroups. I heard somewhere lusatian serbs (sorbs,wends) are over 70% R1a, I cannot remember the source of that though.


I think that the Alans along with other sarmatians were R1a dominant and that the G2a in Ossetians comes from the caucasus inhabitants they absorbed. I'd like to see an autosomal chart of Ossetians as I believe it will show them to be far closer to slavs then y-dna shows. Ossetian history talks about them being wiped out by Tamerlane, this could have been mostly men dying fighting while the women and children got away, the majority of women possibly found husbands of neighboring caucuses tribes that were able to speak there language, this would be a big change in y-dna towards a typical caucasus direction if it were true. Their folklore/mythology is like other caucasus tribes as well (nart sagas) it is not aryan like the armenian paganism or slavic paganism etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0BK-zLoJ4
the video is kind of political but it's the only link I have for you.
in the video you will see they are a lot like other caucusus peoples and you will see what they say about Tamerlane massacring them. they do not mention taking husbands of other tribes but based on y-dna and the absence of aryan mythology being replaced by caucasus mythology, I came to that conclusion.

I believe a lot of slavic warrior culture like the serbian/polish hussars, cossacks etc have obvious scytho-sarmatian influence especially the horsemen and their dress etc.

[Goga]

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on syllables like ser, sar, ras etc a lot of it could be just wishful thinking. I do believe that all slavs are a hybrid people made up of scythian, sarmatian, cimmerian, greek bosporus and indigenous balkan peoples (possibly illyrian or pre illyrian vinca). I think y dna hap I is indigenous to the balkans and it migrated to the steppes where it mixed with scythian and sarmatian peoples of the steppes. Serbs and Croats kept their earlier Alan tribal names, possibly veneti, antes etc are earlier tribal names as well. In Iranian theories of yugoslavs you always hear about slavicization as if they are not slavs, i think that's wrong, yes there was slavicization but it was the melding of Hap I balkan people moving towards the steppes and the aryan hap R1a and R1b peoples already there that created slavs.
I also believe germanics to be a hybrid people of scythian, celtic and old european (hap I) as well.
I believe serbs and croats were originally a mix of R1a and I2 but R1a predominantly, then mixing with balkan inhabitants they absorbed even more I2 and other greco-balkan haplogroups. I heard somewhere lusatian serbs (sorbs,wends) are over 70% R1a, I cannot remember the source of that though.

i believe that the Alans along with pother sarmatians were R1a dominant and that the G2a in Ossetians comes from the caucasus inhabitants they absorbed. I'd like to see an autosomal chart of Ossetians as I believe it will show them to be far closer to slavs then y-dna shows. Ossetian history talks about them being wiped out by Tamerlane, this could have been mostly men dying fighting while the women and children got away, the majority of women possibly found husbands of neighboring caucuses tribes that were able to speak there language, this would be a big change in y-dna towards a typical caucasus direction if it were true. Their folklore/mythology is like other caucasus tribes as well (nart sagas) it is not aryan like the armenian paganism or slavic paganism etc.

I believe a lot of slavic warrior culture like the serbian/polish hussars, cossacks etc have obvious scytho-sarmatian influence especially the horsemen and their dress etc.

I do agree with you about everything on Serbs, but Armenians and Slavs are NOT and were never Aryan. I don't know in which Gods they believed, but maybe they borrowed them from the small minority of Aryan tribes which they integrated into their ethnicity / society.

Ossetians are not Slavic, but Iranic (Aryan) folks. Their DNA is Iranic and they speak an East Iranic language.

[Goga]

I think that Serbs are mostly native to their homeland (I2a). In the ancient times they mixed with the Greeks (E & J2) and the Neolithic farmers. Because they're a member of the European family they also mixed a little bit with the Celto-Germanic tribes (R1b, R1a and I1) from the west & north and later they mixed a little bit with the Slavic tribes (I2a & R1a) from the east and from these Slavic tribes they got their language.

[zanipolo]

I think that Serbs are mostly native to their homeland (I2a). In the ancient times they mixed with the Greeks (E & J2) and the Neolithic farmers. Because they're a member of the European family they also mixed a little bit with the Celto-Germanic tribes (R1b, R1a and I1) from the west & north and later they mixed a little bit with the Slavic tribes (I2a & R1a) from the east and from these Slavic tribes they got their language.

So, they where ??? dacians?, bulgars , thracians?

The first time they where called Serbians ( actually Servians) was IIRC 800AD

[Milovan]

they were called sarbans before they reached the balkans and before slavs came to be, sarbans was an Alan tribe. if you hear the iranian croat theory it is the same they were chroates (croats) and haravati (hrvat). I'm sure most people have already heard that before. the sarmatian tribes (Alans were sarmatians) absorbed the scythians, the scythians absorbed some cimmerian before them in the steppe and there was a migration of I2a2 to what is now ukraine that was also absorbed, when the I2a2 people mixed with the steppe peoples slavs were created as a result. the polish also claim sarmatian descent. russians claim scythian descent.
also montes serorum was the old name for the carpathians in latin (serb mountains) those were the eastern serbs, the western serbs are the wends (sorbs) of germany. like I said there was slavs in modern day romania before romanians moved there. serbs came to the balkan in the 6th century, the slavic migration brought serbs to the balkans. from there they absorbed the local population of illyrians, triballi, and many others.

bulgars came to the balkans later and absorbed slavs, romanized thracians etc.
this is the accepted theories, the sarmatian one has less credibility but is the most accepted theory of serb and croat origins. Osprey publishing among many other book publishers stand by serb and croat being Alan tribal names.

when I say the word "Aryan" that means Indo-European, IE is the politically correct term for it, they never called themselves Indo-Europeans, they called themselves Aryans (R1a and R1b peoples). celts, germans, slavs, greeks, romans, persians, indo-aryans, scythians, sarmatians, tocharians, thracians, hittites and many others were Aryans. Everyone on this forum is an Aryan speaker because you are reading and writing in english.

[Milovan]

So, they where ??? dacians?, bulgars , thracians?

The first time they where called Serbians ( actually Servians) was IIRC 800AD

sorry dude but you're wrong, serbs were mentioned earlier in the balkans. earliest as slavs from the migration but afterwards in 649 by Constantine III. this is from wikipedia, not that they are the end all be all source but my point is this widely accepted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

The Serbs are a Slavic people, specifically of the South Slavic subgroup, which has its origins in the 6th and 7th century communities developed in Southeastern Europe (see Great Migration). Slav raids on Eastern Roman territory are mentioned in 518, and by the 580s they had conquered large areas referred to as Sclavinia (transl. Slavdom, from Sklavenoi - Σκλαυηνοι, the early South Slavic tribe which is eponymous to the current ethnic and linguistic Indo-European people).[35] In 649, Constantine III relocates conquered Slavs "from the Vardar" to Gordoservon (Serb habitat). Among communities part in the Serb ethnogenesis are the Romanized Paleo-Balkan tribes of Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians, Celts, Greek colonies and Romans.
In 822, the Serbs are mentioned as "inhabiting the larger part of Dalmatia" (Serbian lands), and Emperor Constantine VII (r. 913–959) writes in his work "Administration of the Empire"[36] (De Administrando Imperio) about the Serbs, mentioning the White Serbs that "migrated from Βοϊκι" and formed a principality, as well as an early chronological list of Serbian monarchs starting from the 7th century. The Serbs subsequently developed a Byzantine-Slavic culture, like the neighbouring Bulgarians (who derive their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars, founders of their nation). The establishment of Christianity as state-religion took place around 869 AD, during the rule of Emperor Basil I (r. 867–886). The Serbian Orthodox Church was established in 1219. By the time of the Serbian Empire, the Serbo-Byzantine cultural sphere had besides the initial territories much of the Macedonia region and Epirus.


notice in 649 Constantine mentions serbs need to be relocated, meaning they were already there for sometime probably causing trouble at that point in time hence the relocation.
they were in the balkans roughly 100 years prior to that possibly wandering like nomads before settling certain areas. serbs were in the balkans before bulgarians.

also if you've ever heard the "unknown archont" story
heres more wikipedia

The Slavs invaded Balkans during Justinian I rule (527–565), when eventually up to 100,000 Slavs raided Thessalonica. The Western Balkans was settled with "Sclaveni", the east with Antes.[62] Archaeological evidence in Serbia and Macedonia conclude that the White Serbs may have reached the Balkans earlier, between 550-600, as much findings; fibulae and pottery found at Roman forts point at Serb characteristics.[63] and thus could have been a fraction of the early invading Slavs who upon organizing in their refuge of the Dinaric region, formed the ethnogenesis of Serbs and were pardoned by the Byzantine Empire after acknowledging their suzerainty.
According to Byzantine tradition (De Administrando Imperio, by Porphyrogenitus); The Serbs are recorded in the Byzantine Empire; Balkans with the arrival of the Unknown Archont and his part of the Serb tribe. The White Serbs came from White Serbia, situated in present day western Poland, led by this archont who took half of the people after the death of his father, who was a King. The first Serb settlement in the Balkans took place between 610 and 626 after being sent for by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius to secure the Byzantine frontier from the problematic Avars. They lived briefly in Servia, in the province of Thessalonica where they were settled, but soon decided to return to their homeland, however on their way back, near the Danube, they requested the land of Western Balkans to settle in through the military governor at Belgrade.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_of_Serbs.png

[zanipolo]

sorry dude but you're wrong, serbs were mentioned earlier in the balkans. earliest as slavs from the migration but afterwards in 649 by Constantine III. this is from wikipedia, not that they are the end all be all source but my point is this widely accepted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

The Serbs are a Slavic people, specifically of the South Slavic subgroup, which has its origins in the 6th and 7th century communities developed in Southeastern Europe (see Great Migration). Slav raids on Eastern Roman territory are mentioned in 518, and by the 580s they had conquered large areas referred to as Sclavinia (transl. Slavdom, from Sklavenoi - Σκλαυηνοι, the early South Slavic tribe which is eponymous to the current ethnic and linguistic Indo-European people).[35] In 649, Constantine III relocates conquered Slavs "from the Vardar" to Gordoservon (Serb habitat). Among communities part in the Serb ethnogenesis are the Romanized Paleo-Balkan tribes of Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians, Celts, Greek colonies and Romans.
In 822, the Serbs are mentioned as "inhabiting the larger part of Dalmatia" (Serbian lands), and Emperor Constantine VII (r. 913–959) writes in his work "Administration of the Empire"[36] (De Administrando Imperio) about the Serbs, mentioning the White Serbs that "migrated from Βοϊκι" and formed a principality, as well as an early chronological list of Serbian monarchs starting from the 7th century. The Serbs subsequently developed a Byzantine-Slavic culture, like the neighbouring Bulgarians (who derive their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars, founders of their nation). The establishment of Christianity as state-religion took place around 869 AD, during the rule of Emperor Basil I (r. 867–886). The Serbian Orthodox Church was established in 1219. By the time of the Serbian Empire, the Serbo-Byzantine cultural sphere had besides the initial territories much of the Macedonia region and Epirus.


notice in 649 Constantine mentions serbs need to be relocated, meaning they were already there for sometime probably causing trouble at that point in time hence the relocation.
they were in the balkans roughly 100 years prior to that possibly wandering like nomads before settling certain areas.

Thanks for post # 138 and 139..............but I was inquiring about serbians in the time of the iron-age

[Taranis]

when I say the word "Aryan" that means Indo-European, IE is the politically correct term for it, they never called themselves Indo-Europeans, they called themselves Aryans (R1a and R1b peoples). celts, germans, slavs, greeks, romans, persians, indo-aryans, scythians, sarmatians, tocharians, thracians, hittites and many others were Aryans. Everyone on this forum is an Aryan speaker because you are reading and writing in english.

Sorry, no. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" is from the 19th century. It has little to do with political correctness that the term because nowadays, at least in the linguistic context, the term "Aryan" just refers to either the Indo-Iranic languages or just the Iranic languages alone.

[Milovan]

there was more then one wave of serbs into the balkans both from white/western serbia in the 7th century(unknown archont first serbian dynasty claimed descent from him) and eastern serbia when they came over the carpathians "montes serorum" in the first slavic invasion 6th century.

the word white in old slavic also means western, hence belarus= white russia= western russia
white serbia= western serbia

[Milovan]

Sorry, no. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" is from the 19th century. It has little to do with political correctness that the term because nowadays, at least in the linguistic context, the term "Aryan" just refers to either the Indo-Iranic languages or just the Iranic languages alone.

they commonly use the term more then the west these days because of political correctness, there is no world war 2 hitler stigma over there so they have no reason to be ashamed of the name of their ancestors.
sarmatians and scythians whom both slavs and germanic peoples have partial descent (among many other groups) were Iranian speakers. Ireland's name derives from Eire a word derived directly from the word Aryan, celts in Ireland obviously called themselves Aryans. wish i could remember the source for that but I can't I heard it a long time ago.

[Bodin]

Do you have proof that Serbians are sarmatians ?. Since Goths resided on the black sea area for 250 years before the invasion of Roman empire and that the Germanic bastanae tribe was there before the Goths, seems to indicate that the sarmatians and syctians are further East. maybe between the black and caspanian seas

I believe I do , I am not 100% convinced , thats why I need to cheeck my teories sharing knowledge with others , so thank you for asking .1) Like I writed in previous post Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmatian tribes Serboi and Haruatoi , those names are same as Serbs and Croats . 2) I2a2 spreading map is the same as the map of moving of Sarmatians as I explained in previous post . 3) Serbs have very small procentage of Slavic R1a1a1a7 ( comon ancestor before about 3.500 years ) , and most of 15% of Serbian is much older ( comon ancestor before 11.000 years ) , and R1a is higher in Voyvodina then in the rest of Serbia . In Croatia there is more R1a because Slavonia is settled by Slavs who were moved here by Avars to serve as they border guards -Krajišnici. In Bosnia is greater diversity of R1a genes in Europe that can mean only there was several waves of R1a or that R1a is originated on Balkan - it is not Slavic 4) I allready mentioned title of župan and ban which are Iranian R1a 5) Burrial customs : Slavs use to burn they deads and then buried they ashes with no artefacts , Sarmatians use to buried whole body , with a lot of artefacts , like it is in the Banat where they lived during Avar Khaganate , Croatians had same burial practises , Serbians use to burn them deads and put ashes in special builded cotages of dried grass and wood ,which is simillar to burial customs of Scythians like portraed in Herodotus , only Scythians use to balm they deads and not to burn them. 5) Mythology : In Serb , Croat and Bulgarian mythology there is creature called i zmaj , and it is not same like Slavic zmei which is more like Serbian aždaha ( also Iranian word, aži are giant sneakelike creatures , and až Dahan is one of them ) - have multiple heds , and are evil . On the other hand Serbian zmaj is smaller ( up to 2 m ) ,sneakelike , but it can take of the scales and become a man , it is not evil unless it is offended . That creature is same like Chinese
dragon which is bringing god fortune and helping humans , it is also very potent - have intercourse with womans and meers , later they born heroes ( Miloš Obilić , Zmaj Ognjeni Vuk ,... ) and god horses ( Jabučilo ) . Also there is same legend that Chinese dragon and Serbian zmaj are becomed of very old carp . So Serbians , Croats , Bulgarians use to have contacts with China like Sarmatians
You say that Goths comed on Black see before invasion to Rome ,and that is true but Goths could not carry I2a2 - there is no in Gotalanda in Sweden where they come from . But Goths made they mark on Serbs and Croats genes - I1 ( 7% both) is probably mostly Gothic ,some of it is Saxon ( Sasi -miners) , and some from mercenaries of Midle ages kings , some of R1a is also Gothic - it is strong in Gotalanda.

[Bodin]

Also you said that Sarmatians use to live in betweh stean Caspian and Black sea , that is true but during V century BC , afterwards they moved in north stepes of the Black sea , and then on west (there was Sarmatians in Banat , Alans moved with Vandals in Spain and Africa , Sarmatians in today Romania fight the Rome on the Marcomanic side during Marcoman wars , and in III and IV century). Bastarnae : they origin is not certain , they name is cognate to word bastard and they were mixed , even they culture is half German , half Sarmatian

[Milovan]

Also you said that Sarmatians use to live in between the Caspian and Black sea , that is true but during V century BC , afterwards they moved in north stepes of the Black sea , and then on west

depends on what maps you look at, scythians were on both sides of the caspian during certain times, I saw one map where scythians were west of the caspian and sarmatians were east of the caspian. the sarmatians obviously moved west into scythian territory from there. before east of the caspian was considered sarmatian territory it was scythian territory which proves herodotus theory that sarmatians descend from scythians (at least partially)

yes you were right serboi, not sarban thats the pashtun tribe I think, I had the names confused.

[Bodin]

What are you talking about?

None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina.

1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.

2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia.

3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a.

So, to claim I2a2 Slavic is idiotic. There's various mutations within I2a2 that now we differentiate between dinaric north, south and eastern european dinaric (russian).

We don't consider ourselves Slavs, and stay away from our people.

I2a2 cant be Illyrian because , Mesapic tribes in Italy were Illyrians that crosed Adriatic sea , they even speaked same languague , and there is no I2a2 in Mesapic aereas. Also newcomers -Serbs and Croats have more I2a2 then old Albanians , Romanians and Greeks.
I2a2 is not Slavic neather but Sarmatian , as I explained before it spread matches spread of Sarmatian moves , it is present in Slavic lands because Sarmatians use to live there and rule protoslavic nations ( remember Jordanes say that name Slav is new one , and they use to call themselves differently) . They also use to marry and to sleep with Slavic womans ( read Herodotus report about very free sexual life of Sarmatians ) , so when Slavs were created as new nation some of them were I2a2 , so I2a2 is partially Slavic .
Also about name of Serbs and Siberia , if you won to se do two words have simillar roots just remove vocals SRB and SBR is not the same , Siberia is named after Turkic Sabirs , and it means "land of dreams" on Tatar languague.
Lot of Indoeuropean nations have the name made of Sora ( sanskrit: sky , old, wise , gard ,... ) , it not necesarly mean that they are conected with Serbs

[Milovan]

I2a2 cant be Illyrian because , Mesapic tribes in Italy were Illyrians that crosed Adriatic sea , they even speaked same languague , and there is no I2a2 in Mesapic aereas. Also newcomers -Serbs and Croats have more I2a2 then old Albanians , Romanians and Greeks.
I2a2 is not Slavic neather but Sarmatian , as I explained before it spread matches spread of Sarmatian moves , it is present in Slavic lands because Sarmatians use to live there and rule protoslavic nations ( remember Jordanes say that name Slav is new one , and they use to call themselves differently) . They also use to marry and to sleep with Slavic womans ( read Herodotus report about very free sexual life of Sarmatians ) , so when Slavs were created as new nation some of them were I2a2 , so I2a2 is partially Slavic .
Also about name of Serbs and Siberia , if you won to se do two words have simillar roots just remove vocals SRB and SBR is not the same , Siberia is named after Turkic Sabirs , and it means "land of dreams" on Tatar languague.
Lot of Indoeuropean nations have the name made of Sora ( sanskrit: sky , old, wise , gard ,... ) , it not necesarly mean that they are conected with Serbs

theres no proof I2a2 is sarmatian I believe it is proto-illyrian/proto balkan and some of them moved east to the steppes to mix with the steppe scytho-sarmatian people and became slavs from this mixing, then the balto-slavic union from there.
yes I2a2 is present in all slav nations but majority R1a except those that migrated to the balkans later on (the I2a2 homeland) where I2a2 became more prevalent then R1a due to absorbing the locals. yes not every word with an "S" and an "R" in it mean serb, thats wishful thinking.
if I2a2 is sarmatian why isn't there any in asia between the caspian and the altai? the sarmatians were there and slavs weren't, those turkicized peoples are R1a heavy from scytho-sarmatian blood. how much I2a2 is in central asia?

bulgaria and greece were never illyria, the dinaric alps was
illyrian albanian theories I've heard say this too then the illyrians took epirus
yugoslavia region was only inhabited by illyrians and vinca before roman empire
epirus was epirus (greek) for a long time before illyrians came there
the I2a2 homeland is illyria

also people say hap I is indigenous to europe
meaning it did not come from asia like the sarmatians did
show me hap I or I2a2 originating in asia then I'll believe it

[Bodin]

Not for Sprinkles who cannot develop discussion in the accepted way, I would like to put some short summarized information about the settlement of the Balkans, which could help for the interpretation of the facts, related to haplogroups. If something is not the facts taken from academic editions, it is indicated as my opinion. I'd like to discuss only scientifically accepted facts or scientifically based suggestions under internationally accepted rules of equity and tolerance.

--- The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians. However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.
--- 2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.
--- 4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.
--- Gepids. They were also German people. They also could have some R1a haplogroups, as Slavs were their neighbors .
These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.
---5th century - Raids of Huns. Huns are of unknown origin; Chinese, Turkish and Iranian origin was suggested. Who knows which haplogroups they brought?
--- 5-7th Centuries - Avars raids. Again the origin is unknown, probably of mixed origins.
The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.
--- Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.
Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.


8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called “Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.

A lot of things about that could be read in Wiki. I am not allowed to put here addresses.

So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.



It is also a mistake to relate one haplogroup to one nation, whichever this haplogroup is. It could be that in prehistoric time, the tribes had less diversity in haplogroups. But even measurement in 2-5 years old groves in Europe and Asia already show some admixture. Especially now, after all this migrations, all the nations have mixed haplogroups, which reflects their history.

You numbered almoust all setllement waves , but you forgot to say that Slavs populated Balkan during the rule of emperor Focas ( Byzantine 602-610 ) from Vlachia , they for shore setled in Thracia , Macedonia and Hellas as far as Pelopones , but it seems that Bosnia, Herzegovina and Dalmatia is populated by Avars not Slavs , Avars bringed Slavs in Slovenai- Caranthania to serve as borderguards-krajišnici , and Slavs in Slavonia . You forget about most important setlling wave for this discusion - setlling of Serbs and Croats during rule of emperor Heracleos ( 610-641) , and after the siege of Constantinopolis 626 . Serbs and Croats were called by
emperor to protect empire from Slavs and Avars .

[Bodin]

depends on what maps you look at, scythians were on both sides of the caspian during certain times, I saw one map where scythians were west of the caspian and sarmatians were east of the caspian. the sarmatians obviously moved west into scythian territory from there. before east of the caspian was considered sarmatian territory it was scythian territory which proves herodotus theory that sarmatians descend from scythians (at least partially)

yes you were right serboi, not sarban thats the pashtun tribe I think, I had the names confused.

Acording to Herodotus ( the most reliable story , others being they are descendants of Herakleos and woman-sneak) , Scythians use to live betwen Caspian and Aral sea , and then come Masagets and push them west , so Scythians conquered Cimmerian land pushing Cimmerians in Asia Minor . Former Cimmerian land was called Scythia after Scythians , and it was allmoust perfect square with sides long 20 days of walk , laying on Black sea shore. Herodotus say that Sarmatians are descendants of Scythians and one sheep of Amazon wariors , regarding there is no proff that Amazons ever egzisted , I believe more in Diodorus version of Sarmatian origin: During the Scythian rule in Asia ( VII century BC) they brought parts of Medians north of Caucasus , that Medians are called Sarmatians or Solar Medes . Kurds are partualy descendants of Medians , and they have 25% I2a2-Din . About end of I century and begining of II century Saramatians previosly Scythian vasals conquered Scythia and moved there -south Ukraine, and united themselves with Alans during III century . Alans were tribal union of Masagetes and Tisagetes . Alan means "one that live in steppes " , Alans speak same Iranian languague like Sarmatians , and similar to Scythian ( Herodotus say that Saramatians speak spoiled Scythian - similar but somehow diferent ) . During I century Sarmatians helping Dacians in batle against Rome . When Rome lived Dacia Sarmatians moved in especialy in Banat where were found lots of Sarmatian artefacts and graves , they lived there even during Avar khaganate . Acordin to Tacitus Vandals were olso Sarmatian , there is strong I2a2 in Sardinia - settled by mixed Alans and Vandals from Spain and Africa - there is some I2a2 in North Africa especially Lybia . In IV century Gots come down from Vistula and conquered center of Sarmatian state on Black sea separating Sarmatians in two halfs , one living on north of Caucasus , and second living in Europe in todays Moldavia , Romania , Banat and north to Baltic - Vandals.