Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html
 
WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

DejaVu
Even better, you added missed.

And is there any difference?

Of course that does not exist and it is true that the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.

Probably you not carefully read Dieckens analysis.

Dieckens
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


DejaVu
You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the key issues.
 
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PAGE 4: Summarized Percent Frequencies of R1b, R1a, I1b* (xM26), E3b1 and J2e.
Where is the rest of the haplogroups?

why do you post fake results? Are you blind?

serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

i2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
i1 7,8% __________ no data
r1a 14,5_________15,2%
r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
j2 5,0____________6,3%
g2a 2,2% _________ no data

serbia 89.8%?
macedonia 79.8%?
you know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




and here is the real results.

serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

i2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
i1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
r1a 14,5_________15,2%
r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
j2 5,6%____________12,7%
g2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
n 3,3% _______________ 0%
l 0,6% _______________ 0%

serbia 94,3% total - serbs
macedonia (fyrom) 96,3% total - ethnic macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/y-dna_haplogroups_by_groups_in_europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/f2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?
ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?
 
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
Sklavinia(i) (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:
  • The Serbs became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi) and eventually became independent.
  • The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians.
The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi and Antes. Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor. Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns).
In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').

The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?
 
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Serbian history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs
White Serbia or Bojka (Serbian: Белa Србиja; Archaic: Бојка, Greek: Boiki), is the mythical homeland of the ancestors of the Serbs, of the White Serbs (Serbian: Бели Срби, Beli Srbi).
The area adjacent to White Serbia was known as White Croatia, where the Croats trace their origin. White Serbia and its ethnic designates, the White Serbs, could be interpreted through attributes such as "the unbaptized" or "pagan" (Pre- Christian), according to the De administrando imperio.



The term White Serbia (Bela Srbija) is connected with that of Belarus (White Rus), in this case it may refer to it being an unbaptized land, in relation to the Serbs of the Balkans who were Christian.
Bojka, (Boiki, derived from the Proto-Slavic *bojь. = battle, war, fight) may be connected with the ethnographic group of Ukrainians, the Boyko, and the Celtic tribe of Boii, who in the 2nd century BC dwelled around the Danube.
The White Serbs formed Rascia.






The location of White Serbia has been disputed. It has been described as:


Early Serb state during the reign of Zhupan Vlastimir, c. 840 AD


House of Vlastimirović
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Vlastimirović
 
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

A very good test and yes there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae

DejaVu,
I must say that you are very unfair and nervous, and it is not clear why, though you see, I am max correct, and I will continue to be.

But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population.

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not.

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia.

But we're here not talking about the near history or the Middle Ages.

Just you and I are talking about a much more distant past.

And instead of giving arbitrary, unfair and meaningless conclusions, they are neither for comment, you can read what others write here all the forum and different opinions.

Still not clear that the former tribes makes up the bulk of the present I inhabitants of Serbia and Macedonia, where they are all moving.

But remember, I carriers have for centuries been in big rivers.

It is assumed that the I people have been about great rivers, such as the Danube, Morava and Vardar, for example.

There are assumptions that Vincans were I people but it can be reliably prove the only DNA analysis.

And many others, it is already written enough in this forum.
 
There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs (does not mean Serbs are hated). And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

Dont forget what the tread was about "The Serbs" and not the fabricated Serbs that dont exist.
If you have identity problems, go to a doctor maybe that can help you.
 
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There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs. And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

Dont forget what the tread was about "The Serbs" and not the fabricted Serbs that dont exist.
If you have identity problems, go to a doctor maybe that can help you.

DejaVu
You use hard words again and entirely without reason.

Simply you refuse any other participant of any constructive discussion so qualified, but it is wrong, certainly you have your qualities, and if a little more respected other interlocutors discussion could be much better.

Thus, your words kill any possible discussion (and when the caller sincerely wishes to take any real discussion with you) but what is wrong, there is depletion of some issues that should not provoke such a reaction, but the real problems are genuinely untouched.
 
DejaVu,
But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population.

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not.

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia.

You dont know what you are writing, or do you?
Do you know what that means, what you wrote above?
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian without any evidence.
You must read the history again or maybe you have learned the nationalistic history of Serbia and the falsification. If you dont know the real history why do you bother to discuss and claim what is untrue?
What is your problem? Do you think that everything matching Serbia is Serbian?

But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population?

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not?

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia?
 
You dont know what you are writing, or do you?
Do you know what that means, what you wrote above?
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian.

See how you all insulted me completely, but it is without reason.

You are acting like a fanatic, and certainly you aren't and you have your qualities, and it's totally unnecessary.

I have no words, but it has nothing to do with my attitude, generally I have a good opinion of Macedonians from former Yugoslavia, and the politics will change, trust me, and you will in a few years to think differently.
 
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian without any evidence.
You must read the history again or maybe you have learned the nationalistic history of Serbia and the falsification. If you dont know the real history why do you bother to discuss and claim what is untrue?

This is the biggest hypocrasy I have ever seen you say. FYROM has been claiming history from greeks and you say garrick has no right to do it with FYROM?

Garrick stop taking this guy seriously, he's been brainwashed by Tito for far too long. His parents didn't know better, they lived under communism, he has no excuse for his stupidity.

FYROM, fabricating history since 1991! (y)
 
Maybe your dream will come true Serbia united with FYROM again and all will speak Serbian and become the fake Serbs, keep on dreaming.

Is it hard to write about Serbian history? Or the history of Serbia is not enuff for the Nationalists?

Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZHKvAJNZqg
 
This is the biggest hypocrasy I have ever seen you say. FYROM has been claiming history from greeks and you say garrick has no right to do it with FYROM?

Garrick stop taking this guy seriously, he's been brainwashed by Tito for far too long. His parents didn't know better, they lived under communism, he has no excuse for his stupidity.

FYROM, fabricating history since 1991! (y)

Elias

Indeed you're right.

I have tried in every possible way to accept him as a participant, I was maximum correct but I received insults, I really have no words, simply put discussion is not possible.
 
Maybe your dream will come true Serbia united with FYROM again and all will speak Serbian and become the fake Serbs, keep on dreaming.

Is it hard to write about Serbian history? Or the history of Serbia is not enuff for the Nationalists?

Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA
http ...

Now look at this:

Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

And so about the old people with old genes, who instead of a great (or ancient) knowledge, is still wild, primitive and stupid.
 
The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?
ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?

DejaVu
So you did not read carefully.

Only I left out information that is not relevant to the analysis that was done Dienekes (Dienekes did not take into consideration haplogroups with small precentage in order not be complicated calculation), nor would it change anything in the result because this is a small percentage.

So all the information I have given are correct and you're trying to impute to me something that is not true, you are trying to manipulate.

But I will not say you're FYROM nationalist fanatic or anything else that is offensive.

But I will tell you that YOU ARE VERY AGRESSIVE.

This is because persistently you trying to prove what is unprovable.

All facts and factors, including DNA haplogroups indicate that the Slav Macedonians are close to the Serbs, generaly South Slavs.

But when I say it I do not claim requirements what you're trying to impute to me.

I love Slavic Macedonia.


But I point out the problem:

FYROM Macedonians can not be larger Greeks than the real Greeks.

FYROM Macedonians are Slav Macedonians, a fact.



But the problem that some FYROM Macedonians want to be who they are not, ie. more Greeks than real Greeks is an artificial problem created by the Communists since 1945 and continued by the current FYROM elite.

And FYROM Macedonia now has much bigger problems.

But the elite of FYROM (not just the government) is trying to cover up the real issues with artificial problems and cause unnecessary tension in the region.

But this is not a proper subject for this kind of debate. There is a topic of Macedonia, where you can read the writing about it.
 
FYRO Macedonians or ethnic Macedonians dont consider themselfs anything then ethnic Macedonians and they live all over the world. I have relatives in Serbia Nis and Novi Sad and they live there today as Serbs and there is no hate against any Serbs or other nationality from my side. If I understand your post in my way maybe its wrong, then write much better to understand what your point is, without claiming anything before there is any real evidence.
Can be many reasons why same haplogroup appears in many nations as "I2a2".
I dont accept "I2a2" as Serbian only (because of generalization purpose) and the people of FYRO Macedonia as Serbs, thats all.
 
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oh, that's fine, you can call I2a2 anything you want...
of course it is obvious from spread of I2a2 today, that it is not only Serbian haplogroup, but if we look for ancestors of Serbs and other south Slavs we need to follow the trace of I2a2....
 
FYRO Macedonians or ethnic Macedonians dont consider themselfs anything then ethnic Macedonians and they live all over the world. I have relatives in Serbia Nis and Novi Sad and they live there today as Serbs and there is no hate against any Serbs or other nationality from my side. If I understand your post in my way maybe its wrong, then write much better to understand what your point is, without claiming anything before there is any real evidence.
Can be many reasons why same haplogroup appears in many nations as "I2a2".
I dont accept "I2a2" as Serbian only (because of generalization purpose) and the people of FYRO Macedonia as Serbs, thats all.

DejaVu
About I2a2 you can read posts of How yes no, Iapodos, Shetop and other, I write also but more deal with haplogroup E.

You can see I2a2 results for countries ex Yugoslavia:



1. Bosnia and Herzegovina (Pericic et al, 2005)
Herzegovina 63,8%
Bosnia 52,2%

2. Serbia 38,5% (Mirabal et al, 2010)
It is interesting Total I in Serbia: 48%

3. Croatia 32,4% (Pericic et al, 2005)
Peak is in Dalmatia.

4. Montenegro 29,2% (Mirabal et al, 2010)

5. Macedonia, FYROM 29,1% (Pericic et al, 2005)

Now look at the absolute amounts:

I2a2

Federation Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia (7 cantons): about 600,000
West South Herzegovina (3 cantons): about 125,000

Republic of Srpska (Serbian) here was not considered.

Croatia: about 700,000

Montenegro: about 90,000

Macedonia FYROM: about 290,000


Serbia: about 1,400,000

Serbs in the Balkans: about 1,800,000
 
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If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.
 

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