Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.

so, I guess you suggest that R1a came to Balkan with Slavs while I2a2 are autochtonos people?
I think it was opposite...but R1a and I2a2 were present in both old inhabitants and Slavic settlers... because that is same area of influence...

R1a is as established by Klyosov much much older in south and central Balkan than in all other parts of the world taken together.... which means it didnot come from anywhere, it was always there...

according to Maciamo's map I2a2 also shows up in areas never settled by Slavs - along west coasts of Asia minor, in parts of Greece never settled by Slavic people, along italian Adriatic coast that was settled by Illyrians but not by Slavic people...
 
If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.

Itas Argis
Read the post 365133 carefully (topic about Albanians and Berber).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA R1a in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.
 
Itas Argis
Read the post 365133 carefully (topic about Albanians and Berber).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA R1a in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

Again, I find this explanation to be clear, thorough, but not too lengthy.
It is striking as is appears to make much sense but also brings up points that I had never considered before. I get the feeling that these points are similar to some of those presented by 'How Yes No'. I can now picture an R1a-carrying group of Slavs migrating to this area, merging with local peoples and bringing their language with them.

I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.

 
it is a problem big that
the bind of R1 with I2 people

about the invasions of Slavic people it is mentioned in Historical times, you can't deny that, as a continue up and down, east and west of donau from almost 1rtst to 7 nth century AD

hm
it is an question

if we follow Dys etc of R1a then we have what?
Klyosov R1a is far behind
and I2 is a sum of older and new
or I2 is local and R1a entered,

the only we have to do is to compare the Viking R1a that entered east europe with the older Balkan R1a of Klyosov,
if no extract is found, then?
we search the I2 Dys as a possible gathering by invasions of 500-600 AD or before
if the results are same
I know it is difficult,
 
[
I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.


data.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

could it be that hotspots of haplpogroups R1a in Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in west central Crete and highlands of east most Crete are brought there by Slavs? Of course not...

anyway, your post made me wonder about something....
so I looked up again for Klyosov's paper...

There is no justification in the results of a
"Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1 ancient population
allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence has been
obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years
before the present (ybp) in South Siberia.
There are two
sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp
and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different
methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).

(c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations,
present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern
Europe have common ancestors who lived between
3550 and 4750 years ago
(the "youngest" in Scotland,
Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500
ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
(d) There are two different groups of Indian R1a1
haplotypes; one shows a good match with the Russian
Slavic R1a1 group,
having a common ancestor several
hundred years "younger" than the Russian R1a common ancestor (4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp). This
supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India
as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian
literature) around 3600 ybp. The other Indian R1a
population is significantly older, with a common ancestor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated
from South Siberia to South India.

(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

oldest Balkan R1a (much much older than in rest of east Europe) is not in Greece, but in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia, which equals Serb ethnic space... point is perhaps it is not about ancient old pocket of R1a that was in Balkan, but about ancient old pocket of R1a that has completely moved to Balkan.... however, this is a bit hard issue... R1a in Sorbs should be ancient old as well? what about other settlements along the line from Caucasus to Serbia via Bohemia... according to Byzantine emperor who is only historian who mention settlement of Serbs on Balkan (though with few centuries delay) they came from land of Boika (which based on many issues e.g. neighboring areas can be matched with Bohemia) where they always lived and were called white...now this white is probably about west Serbs = white Serbs as west is designated with white color for iranian and other steppe people.... always lived there should not be taken literary, but it means they lived there long long ago.... but than R1a in Czech republic should be ancient old as well, right? thus, it is possible that Klyosov is right in interpretation of these facts:

The “mapping” of the enormous territory from the
Atlantic through Russia and India to the Pacific, and
from Scandinavia to the Arabian Penisula, reveals that
Haplogroup R1a men are marked with practically the
same ancestral haplotype, which is about 4,500 - 4,700
years “old.” through much of its geographic range.
Exceptions in Europe are found only in the Balkans
(Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about
11,650±1,550 ybp, and in the Irish, Scottish and Swedish R1a1 populations, which have a significantly
“younger” common ancestor, some thousands years
“younger” compared with the Russian, the German, and
the Poland R1a1 populations. These geographic patterns will be explored below in this section. The
haplogroup name R1a1 is used here to mean Haplogroup R-M17, because that is the meaning in nearly all
of the referenced articles.
The entire map of base (ancestral) haplotypes and their
mutations, as well as “ages” of common ancestors of
R1a1 haplotypes in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East
show that approximately six thousand years ago bearers
of R1a1 haplogroup started to migrate from the Balkans
in all directions, spreading their haplotypes.
A recent
excavation of 4,600 year-old R1a1 haplotypes (Haak et
al., 2008) revealed their almost exact match to presentday R1a1 haplotypes
, as it is shown below.
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf



anyway, there is older R1a pocket in south Siberia....

Some sources[2] say that the name is derived from the Tatar for "sleeping land." Another version is that this name was the tribal name of the Sybyrs, ancient people later assimilated to Siberian Tatars. It has also been asserted that the name Siberia is connected to the Sabir people. The modern usage of the name appeared in the Russian language after the conquest of the Siberia Khanate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia

so, it can as well be that Serbs were originally R1a people, and in fact that proto-Serbs are origin of other R1a people... note that Sorbs in east Germany have 60% R1a... in same time we have I2a2 as dominant haplogroup in modern Serbs.....question is where did merge of R1a and I2a2 take place.....if it was in Balkan, than how to explain I2a2 hotspot in Bohemia which is the place from which Serbs came to Balkan.... they probably arrived to Bohemia from Ukraine....which is again hotspot of I2a2.... to Ukraine they probably arrived from Kuban area northeast of Black sea (where Siraces who are thought to be the same as Serboi lived)...Kuban area is again hotspot of I2a2... to Kuban area they probably came from Caspian highlands (which is where Serboi tribe lived)...this area also show somewhat elevated I2a2..... and this is not too far from south Siberia..

question is where did mixing of haplogroup I2a and R1a take place....

I.png

R1a.png

R1A_map.jpg


we know that Scythians are dominantly R1a people and that I2a2 seems to be related to Veneti/Eneti/Antes tribes....

my guess is that mixing of I2a2 and R1a people in same tribe took place in Caspian highlands many thousand years ago...

Serboi would match Seneca's Serians who live in Caspian highlands.... but Seneca also speaks of Serians of northwest China (producing silk in land called Seres/Serica) which is in fact just a bit south of south Sibir, making thus historic link between oldest pocket of R1a in Sibir with the one in Balkan.... however, we can see that there was also haplogroup I in northwest China.... he also talks about Serians of Red sea, and Serians of Europe who dare to cross frozen Danube and who rule over scattered Scythians... mention of proto-Serbs (assumed based on previous that they were called Serians by Seneca) around Danube in Europe in times of Seneca means that expansion of Serbs to Europe was long time ago....
 
how yes no could it be that hotspots of haplpogroups R1a in Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in west central Crete and highlands of east most Crete are brought there by Slavs? Of course not... anyway said:
How Yes No,
I think that you may have been trying to answer the question that I asked of Garrick. If not, I apologize. If in deed you were, then you did not properly understand my question and I resubmit the following:


My question referred to the pocket of Slavs that remained distinct and presumably in charge of a region in the middle of the Peloponesse, not any part of Crete. The existence of this group that maintained its presence and control for over a hundred years is well known to history. That is why I asked Garrick if he thought that their presence may have consequently created an R1a presence in that region. I don't have a problem with you attempting to answer a question that I posed to another member, but it would be a lot easier if you ensured that you knew what I was asking prior to doing so.

Your posts clearly indicate that you do tremendous amounts of research, but they get packaged into a sort of artillery barrage that makes picking out your main point(s) very difficult. Try using a Dragunov as opposed to an entire division of artillery.
 
Again, I find this explanation to be clear, thorough, but not too lengthy.
It is striking as is appears to make much sense but also brings up points that I had never considered before. I get the feeling that these points are similar to some of those presented by 'How Yes No'. I can now picture an R1a-carrying group of Slavs migrating to this area, merging with local peoples and bringing their language with them.

I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.

Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.
 
How Yes No,
I think that you may have been trying to answer the question that I asked of Garrick. If not, I apologize. If in deed you were, then you did not properly understand my question and I resubmit the following:


My question referred to the pocket of Slavs that remained distinct and presumably in charge of a region in the middle of the Peloponesse, not any part of Crete. The existence of this group that maintained its presence and control for over a hundred years is well known to history. That is why I asked Garrick if he thought that their presence may have consequently created an R1a presence in that region. I don't have a problem with you attempting to answer a question that I posed to another member, but it would be a lot easier if you ensured that you knew what I was asking prior to doing so.

Your posts clearly indicate that you do tremendous amounts of research, but they get packaged into a sort of artillery barrage that makes picking out your main point(s) very difficult. Try using a Dragunov as opposed to an entire division of artillery.

point is you cannot equate Slavs with R1a, especially that seems to be far from truth for south Slavs...

well, look at Pelloponese....
in Lerna/Franhtichi where you would expect lot of Slav influence, R1a is 1.8%
while haplogroup I is 21.2%

in Serbia R1a is around 15%, and haplogroup I all branches together close to 50%.... similar is in Macedonia and even more extreme in Bosnia....
Montenegro has like 7% of R1a
while non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have like 12%....

do you realize now why R1a is not = Slavs? things are more complicated than that....


Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?
Avars were probably J haplogroup...
in Caucasus there are still Avars and they are mainly J haplogroup (71.4%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

part of J haplogroup in Serbia might indicate origin from Avars...
Q might be about Huns...

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo


However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.
exactly...


Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

actually, I think that haplogroup I might have originally spread indo-european...

I think so, because Teshub weather god (analog to Zeus in Greece) is in Hatti (pre-Hettite inhabitants of Asia minor) called Taru, and in Germanic people is Thor, while in later Hettite people same god is Tarhun, while in Baltic it is Perkunas and in Slavic is Perun...

Luwian and Hetite language would be origin of Balto-Slavic, while Hatti would be origin of Germanic...early Slavic people are of Veneti race which is I am sure about I2a2 people... and Veneti origin from Eneti of Paphlagonia... thus from Hettite state (there were other haplogroups in various regions of that state)

genetically I relate Hatti with later Getae and them with I2b1... there are two hotspots of I2b1 - germanic tribes and west of Black sea where Getae lived....


Slavic and Germanic did split from PIE rather recently in genetic timeline...

....

Specialists have postulated the existence of such subfamilies (subgroups) as Italo-Celtic, Graeco-Armenian, Graeco-Aryan, and Germanic with Balto-Slavic.
...
The diversification of the parent language into the attested branches of daughter languages is historically unattested. The timeline of the evolution of the various daughter languages, on the other hand, is mostly undisputed, quite regardless of the question of Indo-European origins.


mid 2nd millennium BC distribution


mid 1st millennium BC distribution


post- Roman Empire and Migrations period distribution
2500 BC–2000 BC: The breakup into the proto-languages of the attested dialects is complete. Proto-Greek is spoken in the Balkans, Proto-Indo-Iranian north of the Caspian in the emerging Andronovo culture. The Bronze Age reaches Central Europe with the Beaker culture, likely composed of various Centum dialects. The Tarim mummies possibly correspond to proto-Tocharians.
2000 BC–1500 BC: Catacomb culture north of the Black Sea. The chariot is invented, leading to the split and rapid spread of Iranian and Indo-Aryan from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex over much of Central Asia, Northern India, Iran and Eastern Anatolia. Proto-Anatolian is split into Hittite and Luwian. The pre-Proto-Celtic Unetice culture has an active metal industry (Nebra skydisk).
1500 BC–1000 BC: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italic speakers into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.
1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Baltic languages are spoken in a huge area from present-day Poland to the Ural Mountains.[28] Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Siddhartha Gautama attains enlightenment and preaches Buddhism. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe.
500 BC–1 BC/AD: Classical Antiquity: spread of Greek and Latin throughout the Mediterranean, and during the Hellenistic period (Indo-Greeks) to Central Asia and the Hindukush. Kushan Empire, Mauryan Empire. Proto-Germanic. The Anatolian languages are extinct.
1 BC/AD 500: Late Antiquity, Gupta period; attestation of Armenian. Proto-Slavic. The Roman Empire and then the Migration period marginalize the Celtic languages to the British Isles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages



Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population
or mix of two...or J or E.... it is just not known...

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes
probably...


But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.
?
all people ultimately came from Africa....
but indeed genetically speaking I is much closer to J than to R...
as for people being different, well no... culture makes people different more than genetics...
 
You are 100% confused people

Who are Slavs? Is it a language, culture or people?

Some people who are slavs:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Russia - 46% R1a
Belarus - 49% R1a
Poland - 56,5% R1a

Why is haplogroup I slavic, because of the Serbs?
Who said the inhabitants in Serbia are 100% Serbs or Slavic?
Serbian history in balkan starts with Rascia (Raška)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia
The state(s) anachronistically called Raška were first known collectively as Serbia.

Many different people have joined other people and united for same cause thru history so finding one haplogroup for any kind of country or people is a big joke. Continue for your fantasy search if you believe in it, but the truth is something else.
Did there exist any country with people of same haplogroup in history? Dont think so because of mixture long way back, before any nations existed.
 
Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.

Ok, Understood thank you.
 
You are 100% confused people

Who are Slavs? Is it a language, culture or people?

Some people who are slavs:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Russia - 46% R1a
Belarus - 49% R1a
Poland - 56,5% R1a

Why is haplogroup I slavic, because of the Serbs?
Who said the inhabitants in Serbia are 100% Serbs or Slavic?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

nope, I think Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them... however, Serbs who arrived on Balkan from Bohemia in 7th century are mostly I2a2 people....

evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Origins_500A.png



according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....
 
point is you cannot equate Slavs with R1a, especially that seems to be far from truth for south Slavs...

well, look at Pelloponese....
in Lerna/Franhtichi where you would expect lot of Slav influence, R1a is 1.8%
while haplogroup I is 21.2%

in Serbia R1a is around 15%, and haplogroup I all branches together close to 50%.... similar is in Macedonia and even more extreme in Bosnia....
Montenegro has like 7% of R1a
while non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have like 12%....

do you realize now why R1a is not = Slavs? things are more complicated than that....



Avars were probably J haplogroup...
in Caucasus there are still Avars and they are mainly J haplogroup (71.4%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

part of J haplogroup in Serbia might indicate origin from Avars...
Q might be about Huns...

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo



exactly...




actually, I think that haplogroup I might have originally spread indo-european...

I think so, because Teshub weather god (analog to Zeus in Greece) is in Hatti (pre-Hettite inhabitants of Asia minor) called Taru, and in Germanic people is Thor, while in later Hettite people same god is Tarhun, while in Baltic it is Perkunas and in Slavic is Perun...

Luwian and Hetite language would be origin of Balto-Slavic, while Hatti would be origin of Germanic...early Slavic people are of Veneti race which is I am sure about I2a2 people... and Veneti origin from Eneti of Paphlagonia... thus from Hettite state (there were other haplogroups in various regions of that state)

genetically I relate Hatti with later Getae and them with I2b1... there are two hotspots of I2b1 - germanic tribes and west of Black sea where Getae lived....


Slavic and Germanic did split from PIE rather recently in genetic timeline...

....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages




or mix of two...or J or E.... it is just not known...


probably...



?
all people ultimately came from Africa....
but indeed genetically speaking I is much closer to J than to R...
as for people being different, well no... culture makes people different more than genetics...


OK that was much more succinct thank you.

It is easier to pick up what you are saying now. I see your points about your position of the I people being the Indo European-bearers. I myself still strongly go with the R1b1b2/R1a thesis at this time but I am open to learning more. Whatever happened, it is clear that the 'I' people were an exceptionally vigorous group. The ancient accounts of the Germans seems to be comparable to that of what people here think of Southern Slavs as far as their physical makeup.
 
nope, Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them...


http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Origins_500A.png



according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....

Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it? Since when is it Called Siberia? Tracking back word names are really useless in genetics because of the timeline, and many names have been given by other countries or people who wrote history. Thats why its confusing with who the real inhabitans were when they was conquered and given other names.
 
OK that was much more succinct thank you.

It is easier to pick up what you are saying now.

To further illustrate the point, look at R1a map...

R1A_map.jpg


Magyars settled area previously settled by Slavs...so they settled in center of Hungary and pushed Slavs to east and west...now, south Slavs, central Ukraine and Romania cluster with east and west Hungary, but not with center...
however center is R1a dominant and not east or west of it... which means Magyars brought R1a in not so much R1a area....

look at hotspot of R1a in north Greece..... it is higher than in surrounding Slavic lands...

now look at ancient Macedonia...

750px-Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg.png

749px-Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg.png
 
Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto-whatever nation

not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...

Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it?

read again quote from Klyosov about oldness of R1a throughout world...there are two ancient old pockets of it - South Sibir and Serb populated lands..doesn't that ring a bell?
 
you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto--

not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...

But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?
Kings or Rulers of any people or country dont need to be of same stock and thats a fact.
For who did the name Serb or Serbia belong to, the rulers or the people?
 
But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?

tribal names are identity...
YDNA haplogroup is just small part of our DNA... it can be replaced in 2 generations of invaders as it reflects only direct male line.... also it can be dilluted in YDNA of subjugated more populous tribe..

however, YDNA haplogroup is very useful for detecting recent movements of people...

there are two important things about YDNA haplogroups - frequency and variance... frequency speaks of recent past, variance of more distant past...

in case of Serbs unprecedented oldness of R1a speaks of their ancestors being also ancestors of all other R1a people in Europe (note that other direction doesnot hold)... this is about past that we can date in tens of thousands years ago...

but Serbs are also massive carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, which is about more recent past, that is about past from last several thousand years ago...when somehow merge of some I2 (perhaps not yet I2a2) and some R1a people happened, probably preserving R1a tribal name which may indicate that it was about R1a people ruling over I2 people...

this could have been as recent as 500 AD, since Sorbs in east Germany are R1a dominant people...
but Serbs came from Bohemia which is I2a2 hotpot, they probably came there via Ukraine which is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Ukraine from Kuban region northeast of Black sea (Siraces tribe that are considered to be same as Serboi) that is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Kuban region from Caspian shores where tribe Serboi lived, which is most east place with decent I2a2).....

when R1a proto-Serbs (R1a forefathers of Serbs) took aforementioned path and spread to Balkan is hard to say...there are two options:
1) 11000 years ago.... from south Sibir to Balkan
2) 100 AD from Caspian highlands to Kuban region, 200 AD from Kuban region to Ukraine, 500 AD from Ukraine to Bohemia, 700 AD from Bohemia to Serbia...note that whole this route is through I2a2 people...alternatively, I2a2 could have been trace of Serboi...

regarding the merge of I2 and R1a note that some Byzantine historians used name Sarbans for Serbs...
there are another Sarbans in Afghanistan... Pasthun tribe...

Pasthuns have lot of R1a...
and Pasthun Sarbans can be distinguished by traces of haplogroup I* that in that part of Asia exactly matches Sarbans...

so, merge of R1a and I2 haplogroups as visible in Serbs and other Slavs may be ancient old...... and I2 might have in fact developed from I* that lived among R1a people, as it is hard to find high frequencies of I2 without R1a context....
 
Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.


Moesia Superior in the 4th century
The region was inhabited chiefly by Thraco-Dacians, and Illyrian peoples. The name of the region comes from Moesi, Thraco-Dacian peoples who lived there before the Roman conquest.

Dalmatia
Dalmatia's name is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Dalmatae who lived in the area of the eastern Adriatic coast in the 1st millennium BC. It was part of the Illyrian Kingdom between the 4th century BC and the Illyrian Wars (220, 168 BC) when the Roman Republic established its protectorate south of the river Neretva. The name "Dalmatia" was in use probably from the second half of the 2nd century BC and certainly from the first half of the 1st century BC, defining a coastal area of the eastern Adriatic between the Krka and Neretva rivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


Where are the Slavs or Serbs in 4th century? Where is the name of Serbs and Serbia?
Serbs could be Thracians, Illyrians and many more geneticlly or?
The name dont really need to be or have anything to do with the original population of the Serb Nation.

No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name matching with Serb, what a joke.
 
Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.
only joke people are Serbo-Bulgarians who want to carry name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe...

Serbo-Bulgarians is about Bulgarian language that you speak and dominant Serbo-Slavic I2a2 imprint of FYRM MAcedonians of today....

Serbo-Greek is about ancient old R1a people who subjugated Greek tribes and adopted their language....



Moesia Superior in the 4th century

The region was inhabited chiefly by....

you forget Scordisci

The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

and same Celtic tribe also recorded under name Serdi

The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.

300px-ThracianTribes.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

now what about Serians/Seres dwelling upon mount Athos according to Herodotous in times of ancient Greece, and around Danube in times of Roman empire according to Seneca....but also in central Asia (= south Siberia), and in arc from northwest China to India (= position of Sarbans), and around Red sea( = Sabeans/Sheba which leads us to name origin from legendary queen of Sheba whose name in her south countries was known as Makeda, hence traditional name Macedonians for south most Serbs)

Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

Seres dwell upon mount Athos.... isn't that more or less where ancient Macedonia is?


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians are obviously same as Seres, as location is same, and both names are often mentioned in reference to secret of silk production... I guess Seres would be ancient Greece term, Serians early Roman empire term...

Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

on this map you can find Serboi as Serbi, recorded in Caspian highlands in Asian Sarmatia...

800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_neighbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

you can also read about Siraces living in Kuban region till 200 AD being same as Serboi

They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...


After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula,
and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

and again spread along Danube (or lands of Hungaria and Bulgaria) is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...

spread of Roman empire causes their migration to north... notice that Scordisci lived along Danube, Sava and Morava valleys...and Thracians (also tribe Serdi among them) in lower Danube in Bulgaria....notice that both Scordisci and Thracians disappear from Balkan at time of spread of Roman empire... than with decline of Roman empire you have Serbs and Croats coming back from north areas to Balkan....

besides notice that name Thracians is same tribal name as Rascians (first medival Serb state is Raska) and also in fact same tribal name as Russians.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

note that Etruscans who were also R1a carriers called themselves Rasena (Serbs are Rasani, Russians are Rusi) while Greeks called them Thyrsenians also inserting letter 'T' in front of the word...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans


No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
Serbia is almost till Tokio as Sibir is still held by R1a offspring of proto-Serbs... :)


Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name Serb, what a joke.
we have two pockets of ancient R1a one in south Siberia and other in Serbia...
and we have Serians as link between them... as Serians lived in central Asia, but also upon mount Athos in north Greece and around Danube...

well, I know it is hard to accept, but it is kind of obvious who were Serians and who is origin of both R1a and I2a2 in Bulgarian speaking Serbs that misuse name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe .. :)
 
All with Haplogroups I2a2 & R1a is Serbian and that means all who have those are Serbs?

Why do Serbs exclusively have chameleon names and tribe belonging of their nation and people? (Celts, Slavs or whatever the name matching)
Only The Serbs (100% Serbs in Serbia) in Balkan got the name left from the belonging tribes? (The chosen ones)

Mostly here in this forum will laugh about your explanation.
Get serious or be ignored even by Serbs, this is way to much claim in any history of any kind of people and country. Why dont you even claim humans as Serbian if you want to go that far.
 

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