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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

  1. #26
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    in fact taulanti is area of tiranacause we know it was next to epidamnus (durres) and Apollonia,,
    enceleians are next to lake ohrid,

    tosk is a slavic word or thracian
    in Greece we find the name tositsas - toskas - tokas among thracians of north East, and is connected with armani and Phanariotes (Greek -romanians from moldo-wallachia)
    in fact a minister was name Averov - Tositsas and was Greek from Moldo-wallachia
    Tokas is a common name to exchanged populations among Bulgaria and Greece at 1920-30
    comes from tuk - tak here
    in fact tosk and tok means local
    Last edited by iapetoc; 25-02-11 at 02:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.
    The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, not Tusci.
    The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin.
    As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.
    "Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."
    Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.
    hm, good point...

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In regards to this link

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03...pulations.html

    It says there are 4 groups of Albanians, the Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk. Since reading many links on these people , I came to the conclusion that they are part Epirote and part Molossian. The DNA from Ferri's tests indicate
    E* = 0.28
    E1b1b1 = 30.28
    G = 1.67
    H1 = 12.78
    I* = 13.61
    J1* = 1.39
    J2* = 18.89
    K* = 1.67
    R1* = 19.44

    It seems, they do not have much "illyrian" I haplotype , but more northern Greek, Pelagasian and Levant hapolgroup readings.

    @ Maciano , where did you get your Albanian tests from.?

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    I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .
    ancient documentation states no albanians anywhere, but albanian lands where settled by Epirote and Molossians, since I initially thought Pindo was a town in thessally ( home of the molossian/albanians. I found Pinto meant Pintus mountains, a region in northern greece.

    Finding that the 4 "tribes" of the albanians , Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk have different haplotypes as provided in the link, would seem to indicate that albanians where a mixed race

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../albanians.png

    It would be interesting to map where these 4 tribes are situated in albanian lands

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    Is the frequency of Y-dna H1 high in Albanians?

    That's really odd, if true.

    This haplogroup is also very high in balkan gypsies as well as south asian populations.

    Edit:

    Apparently the tribes, per the link provided above, to albanian H1 are primarily gypsy tribes in Albania. Apparently a lot of people in Albania are gypsies. So, i'm not sure whether or not the albanians consider them albanian or gypsies.

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    Is H1 from Gypsies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Is the frequency of Y-dna H1 high in Albanians?

    That's really odd, if true.

    This haplogroup is also very high in balkan gypsies as well as south asian populations.

    Edit:

    Apparently the tribes, per the link provided above, to albanian H1 are primarily gypsy tribes in Albania. Apparently a lot of people in Albania are gypsies. So, i'm not sure whether or not the albanians consider them albanian or gypsies.
    articles below confirms what you say

    http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...ow.dml/9193511.

    Since the Gabels where the Gypies and they only arrived in the 14th century, then this leaves the Tosks in the south, basically, epirote and Molossian lands from ancient times

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    ancient documentation states no albanians anywhere, but albanian lands where settled by Epirote and Molossians, since I initially thought Pindo was a town in thessally ( home of the molossian/albanians. I found Pinto meant Pintus mountains, a region in northern greece.

    Finding that the 4 "tribes" of the albanians , Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk have different haplotypes as provided in the link, would seem to indicate that albanians where a mixed race

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../albanians.png

    It would be interesting to map where these 4 tribes are situated in albanian lands
    Yes but there was ancient Illyrian town in southern Albania( in that time Epirus Nova ) called Albanopolis and illyrian tribe Albanoi in which aeria it was .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanopolis
    Hier is map of Gheg and Toska dialects of Albanian languague - border betwen them is on river Shkumba in central Albania.

    Dialects_of_the_Albanian_Language.jpg

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    Yes there is many Roma ( Gypsies ) in all Balkan lands , they comed with Turks in XIV century . But there is no H1 in real Albanians - Roma / Gabels are separate nation

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    Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.

    ?
    Its says 12.78% of all albanians is H1 or am I reading it wrong?
    Unless you count roma albanian citizens as not being Albanians

    The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
    from present Bulgaria

    Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
    community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area and claim an Egyptian origin

    The 12.78 % of H1 of Albania
    would be 0.45% of non gypsie albanians
    3.6% of Jevgs albanians non gypsie
    9.1% of roma gypsie

    So, in Maciano DNA per country, he needs to place H1 ( unless he excludes this ) for Albania not counting Roam gypsies at about 4 %

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.
    There was some gene flow but maybe in new times - in old times that was strictly forbiden in all Balkans - for native girl to be with Roma man - family would probably killed her , and for native mans to marry roma girls - not to make them childs , that was more common . Name for Roma in Balkans is Cigani , and that is derived from Greek word Atziganoi - untouchable. They acctualy lived nomadicaly up to begining of XX century . Maybe Enver Hoja ( president of Alabania in second half of XX century ) , contributed to mixing , when he forbiden any other nation , name or languague except Albanian , during this proces lot of Serbs were albanized to

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    ?
    Its says 12.78% of all albanians is H1 or am I reading it wrong?
    Unless you count roma albanian citizens as not being Albanians

    The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
    from present Bulgaria

    Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
    community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area and claim an Egyptian origin

    The 12.78 % of H1 of Albania
    would be 0.45% of non gypsie albanians
    3.6% of Jevgs albanians non gypsie
    9.1% of roma gypsie

    So, in Maciano DNA per country, he needs to place H1 ( unless he excludes this ) for Albania not counting Roam gypsies at about 4 %
    Jevgs and Gabel are not Albanians they are separate nations , with different origins
    I found this research :

    Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming
    Gianmarco Ferri1 Contact Information, Sergio Tofanelli2, Milena Alu1, Luca Taglioli2, Erjon Radheshi1, Beatrice Corradini1, Giorgio Paoli2, Cristian Capelli3 and Giovanni Beduschi1
    (1) Section of Legal Medicine, Department of Diagnostic and Laboratory Services and Legal Medicine, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Modena, Italy
    (2) Department of Biology, Anthropology Unit, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy
    (3) Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
    ukratko.....
    Materials and methods
    Subjects
    DNA of 360 unrelated healthy Albanian males, of which
    165 were Ghegs (north Albania), 121 Tosks (south
    Albania), 33 Jevgs (alleged Balkan Egyptians) and 41
    Gabels (Roma of Albania), was purified from blood and
    saliva samples using either the Chelex method [15] or the
    QIAGEN micro Kit (Qiagen, Chatsworth, CA) according to
    the manufacturer's instructions.
    All the participants gave their informed consent, provided
    detailed information on their geographical origin, and had
    two generations of unrelated paternal ancestry in their region
    of birth.
    Results
    Y-SNP variation
    The binary profile (Fig. 2a–c ) mirrored the dual structure
    (Ghegs/Tosks vs Gabels/Jevgs) observed at Y-STR variation.
    Haplogroup H1-M52, which is strongly associated
    with European Roma tribes and to an Indian proto-gypsy
    ancestry [26, 29, 47], was found at very low frequency in
    the major Albanian groups (0.6–2.5%) but was by far the
    dominant haplogroup in the Gabels (68.3%) and the Jevgs
    (42.4%). Conversely, haplogroups I-M170 and E1b1b1-
    M35, which are common lineages in Balkan populations
    [48, 49], summed up to over the 50% of binary variability
    in the Ghegs and the Tosks but were less common in the
    Jevgs (24.2%) and even rarer in the Gabels (4.9%).
    Haplogroups J2-M172 and R1-M173 were observed at
    substantial frequencies in all the four Albanian groups. It
    has been suggested that J2 chromosomes were acquired by
    the proto-gypsy founder population through a Turkish–
    Aegean route and that R1 chromosomes entered in the
    Roma gene pool by admixture with local European
    populations [29]. For J2 and R1 lineages, no matching or
    neighbour haplotypes with Egyptian chromosomes were
    found in the YHRD (release 30, 23,979 Powerplex
    haplotypes from 221 populations worldwide) and in a
    manually edited archive of published and unpublished data
    (17,351 Powerplex haplotypes from 136 Eurasian populations).
    Chromosomes bearing mutations G-201, K-M9 and
    J1-M267 were observed only in the Gheg/Tosk pair at
    frequencies as low (4.2 in the Ghegs, 8.3 in the Tosks) as in
    the rest of the Balkan area [30, 50].
    The dissection of the main haplogroups into networks of
    12-locus haplotypes is given in Fig. 2a–c. The network of
    H-M69 haplotypes is in accordance with mode (strong
    founder effect) and times (800–1,100 yBP) [51, 52] at the
    origin of proto-gypsy migration from Asia to Europe and
    points to a deep common ancestry for Gabel and Jevg
    variation (rho-based TMRCA=1,110±582 yBP).
    The network of I-M170 haplotypes is structured into
    at least three sub-clades that we inferred to correspond
    to I1-M253 (A branch), I2a-P37 (B branch) and I2b-
    M223 (C branch) chromosomes [48] on the basis of
    SNP-typed haplotypes (data not shown). Gheg and Tosk
    haplotypes are closely associated with Balkan chromosomes
    in all the three sub-clades, whereas Jevg chromosomes
    appeared to be much more linked to Balkan than to
    Albanian chromosomes on the B branch only. The latter
    feature suggests that the flow of I chromosomes to the
    Jevg Y pool might not have been mediated by the Ghegs
    or the Tosks and most likely is to be traced back to an
    early phase of permanence of Roma tribes in the Balkan
    area.
    The absence of close links between Jevg and North
    African haplotypes in the network of E1b1b1-M35 chromosomes
    makes unlikely a recent common ancestry in
    Egypt. However, Y chromosomes with up to two mutational
    differences at 12 STR haplotypes can be considered
    compatible with putative Egyptian ancestors. Following
    this, we searched haplotypes differing 0–2 mutational steps
    from Jevg E chromosomes on databases. Three out of five
    haplotypes fully matched with a total of 76 chromosomes
    of Albanian (31.6%), Balkan (30.3%), Central European
    (28.9%), Italian (1.3%) but also North African (5.3%)
    origin. Whether the African matches (two haplotypes from
    Sohag, Egypt; one haplotype from El Minia, Egypt; two
    haplotypes from Sfax, Tunisia) are identical by descent to
    Jevg chromosomes or they are the effect of convergence, a
    phenomenon commonly observed among haplotypes belonging
    to E-M35 subgroups [36] could be checked only by
    typing a larger set of population samples for M35
    downstream mutations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Jevgs and Gabel are not Albanians they are separate nations , with different origins
    I found this research :

    Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming
    Gianmarco Ferri1 Contact Information, Sergio Tofanelli2, Milena Alu1, Luca Taglioli2, Erjon Radheshi1, Beatrice Corradini1, Giorgio Paoli2, Cristian Capelli3 and Giovanni Beduschi1
    (1) Section of Legal Medicine, Department of Diagnostic and Laboratory Services and Legal Medicine, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Modena, Italy
    (2) Department of Biology, Anthropology Unit, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy
    (3) Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
    ukratko.....
    Materials and methods
    Subjects
    DNA of 360 unrelated healthy Albanian males, of which
    165 were Ghegs (north Albania), 121 Tosks (south
    Albania), 33 Jevgs (alleged Balkan Egyptians) and 41
    Gabels (Roma of Albania), was purified from blood and
    saliva samples using either the Chelex method [15] or the
    QIAGEN micro Kit (Qiagen, Chatsworth, CA) according to
    the manufacturer's instructions.
    All the participants gave their informed consent, provided
    detailed information on their geographical origin, and had
    two generations of unrelated paternal ancestry in their region
    of birth.
    Results
    Y-SNP variation
    The binary profile (Fig. 2a–c ) mirrored the dual structure
    (Ghegs/Tosks vs Gabels/Jevgs) observed at Y-STR variation.
    Haplogroup H1-M52, which is strongly associated
    with European Roma tribes and to an Indian proto-gypsy
    ancestry [26, 29, 47], was found at very low frequency in
    the major Albanian groups (0.6–2.5%) but was by far the
    dominant haplogroup in the Gabels (68.3%) and the Jevgs
    (42.4%). Conversely, haplogroups I-M170 and E1b1b1-
    M35, which are common lineages in Balkan populations
    [48, 49], summed up to over the 50% of binary variability
    in the Ghegs and the Tosks but were less common in the
    Jevgs (24.2%) and even rarer in the Gabels (4.9%).
    Haplogroups J2-M172 and R1-M173 were observed at
    substantial frequencies in all the four Albanian groups. It
    has been suggested that J2 chromosomes were acquired by
    the proto-gypsy founder population through a Turkish–
    Aegean route and that R1 chromosomes entered in the
    Roma gene pool by admixture with local European
    populations [29]. For J2 and R1 lineages, no matching or
    neighbour haplotypes with Egyptian chromosomes were
    found in the YHRD (release 30, 23,979 Powerplex
    haplotypes from 221 populations worldwide) and in a
    manually edited archive of published and unpublished data
    (17,351 Powerplex haplotypes from 136 Eurasian populations).
    Chromosomes bearing mutations G-201, K-M9 and
    J1-M267 were observed only in the Gheg/Tosk pair at
    frequencies as low (4.2 in the Ghegs, 8.3 in the Tosks) as in
    the rest of the Balkan area [30, 50].
    The dissection of the main haplogroups into networks of
    12-locus haplotypes is given in Fig. 2a–c. The network of
    H-M69 haplotypes is in accordance with mode (strong
    founder effect) and times (800–1,100 yBP) [51, 52] at the
    origin of proto-gypsy migration from Asia to Europe and
    points to a deep common ancestry for Gabel and Jevg
    variation (rho-based TMRCA=1,110±582 yBP).
    The network of I-M170 haplotypes is structured into
    at least three sub-clades that we inferred to correspond
    to I1-M253 (A branch), I2a-P37 (B branch) and I2b-
    M223 (C branch) chromosomes [48] on the basis of
    SNP-typed haplotypes (data not shown). Gheg and Tosk
    haplotypes are closely associated with Balkan chromosomes
    in all the three sub-clades, whereas Jevg chromosomes
    appeared to be much more linked to Balkan than to
    Albanian chromosomes on the B branch only. The latter
    feature suggests that the flow of I chromosomes to the
    Jevg Y pool might not have been mediated by the Ghegs
    or the Tosks and most likely is to be traced back to an
    early phase of permanence of Roma tribes in the Balkan
    area.
    The absence of close links between Jevg and North
    African haplotypes in the network of E1b1b1-M35 chromosomes
    makes unlikely a recent common ancestry in
    Egypt. However, Y chromosomes with up to two mutational
    differences at 12 STR haplotypes can be considered
    compatible with putative Egyptian ancestors. Following
    this, we searched haplotypes differing 0–2 mutational steps
    from Jevg E chromosomes on databases. Three out of five
    haplotypes fully matched with a total of 76 chromosomes
    of Albanian (31.6%), Balkan (30.3%), Central European
    (28.9%), Italian (1.3%) but also North African (5.3%)
    origin. Whether the African matches (two haplotypes from
    Sohag, Egypt; one haplotype from El Minia, Egypt; two
    haplotypes from Sfax, Tunisia) are identical by descent to
    Jevg chromosomes or they are the effect of convergence, a
    phenomenon commonly observed among haplotypes belonging
    to E-M35 subgroups [36] could be checked only by
    typing a larger set of population samples for M35
    downstream mutations.

    what are you saying?
    I gave you this link from ferri

    besides at least 4% of Albanians must be H1 ( excluding the Roma) according to Ferri

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    what are you saying?
    I gave you this link from ferri

    besides at least 4% of Albanians must be H1 ( excluding the Roma) according to Ferri
    2,5% Toska has H1 and only 0,6% Gegh . This is from mixing with Roma , and it was not in Balkans before XIV century. And mixing occured as late as second half of XX century , when many Roma were Albanized . Thats what I saying

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    I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
    I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.
    We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

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    Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

    Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

    Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

    If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

    Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

    Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

    If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.
    We are talking about logic of course Pyrub.Gegh Albanians or Kosovars mountainers are more isolated than Bosnians/Croats/Montenegro and the rest of Albanians.They lack the I2A2 gene they have the same Illyrian traits and most importantly the language.Kosovars are predominantly EV13 R1b and J2b.I think R1b is the Indo-European Illyrian trait.I2A2 fails to explain the Indo-European language of Albanians and their ancestors Illyrians.I2A2 is also found in Moldavia Ukraine and Belorusia at high amount.This is my opinion afterall.I dont know how can you exclude the Albanians from the logic when they have the language the traditions and mostly the south genes.Kind regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.
    sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.
    while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

    some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.
    Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrub View Post
    Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

    Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

    If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.
    Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
    sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b
    That sounds reasonable, they were probably an R1b IE branch with some other admixture like the Albanians and Hellenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

    some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.
    Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

    And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.

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    Probably mountanious Albanians have much higher amount of R1b in them than those percentages that were taken from cities where they consider themselves more religious and didn't have problem to mix with slav and turkish muslims.

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