Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:

Haplogroup_R1b.gif


Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.
 
@Pyrub

Some "non genetical" evidence from me:

How would you explain different linguistical situation before 6th century and after 7th century in Balkans? Before 6h century Slavs were unknown for people living in Balkans, and in second half of 7th century Slavic language was spoken in more than a half of Balkans. Slavic migration resulted in great diversity of Slavic dialects and even 4 (or 5) different Slavic languages existing in Balkans today.

My answer would be that only large number of people migrating could have resulted in what we have today. And only Y-DNA numerous enough to fit in this scenario is I2a1b1.

Second huge reason in favor of I2a1b1 arriving with Slavs is the one I did mention on the forum: Greek colonies. If I2a1b1 was in Balkans before common era than we would have it all over Mediterranean coasts.
 
Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.

I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.
 
I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.

you don't think that R1b came by ship and landed between barcelona and genoa, then spread from there. The balkan scenario seems only plausible if they went via the danube river. But then when the celts went back down the danube later on, the percentages would have been greater in that area
 
If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

R1bmap.JPG


Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.
It dont seem like geographic barier to me , mising of R1b is clear prove that Huns , Avars and Sarmathians ethnicly cleansed previous population of Balkans in that aeria - before IV century AD there have to be significant R1b - because of strong Celtic influence
Same is with E -it was on Balkans long ago , and it is not from slave trade , only it was pushed on small aeria by incoming invaders and that is reason of such drop in percentages - boundaries betwen newcomers and old Illyro-Romans
 
I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

Both together can reach something like 30%.

Any possible explanation?
 
I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .
There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.
 
I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

Both together can reach something like 30%.

Any possible explanation?

That is cause of the Bulgarian Empire from the IX to the XI century which majorly affected the toponimics in southern Albania, still noticeable today cause unlike the neigbhouring countries, which mainly during the 1900 and after WWI, but even after WWII changed the toponimics, in Albania mainly cause of interior problems remain unchanged even today.

The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...

There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.

Actually there Norman invasions during the XI and XIII century. Obviously their objective was not Albania or it's lands but they passed there.

I didn't find much on the internet about it (even though i didn't search much) but in Albanian school books are mentioned the 1065 crusade, 1085 Robert Guiscard crusade and the 1204 crusade (the IV crusade) which actually destroyed Constantinople and weakened Byzantium which lead in the creation of the "first" Albanian state (in fact it was a principality). The Principality of Arbër.
 
The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...
albanians.png

This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.
 
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.
 
View attachment 5714

This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.

where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?
 
Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.

I believe the illyrians where all different tribes from central europe that move southward into the balkans ( getting away from the advancing germanic people who where pushing them from the north). I think these "illyrians" where R1b, R1a, I1 and other minor markers.
 
where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?
Actually it's higher in Ghegs and J2b2 isn't related much to Greeks since they're mostly J2a as most of the populations bordering Albanians. They were probably the legendary Pelasgians but i'm just speculating here.
 
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.
 
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

That would be interesting
Very interesting
G2a is divided to certain groups

if it was correct It can tell us many, even things we can not imagine
 
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

There's not study where southern albanians have ever scored 10% G2a
 
There's not study where southern albanians have ever scored 10% G2a

Sorry, my mistake. I think it was Arberesh people in a Italian city which scored 10% G2a not Tosks overall.

Anyway, why is a Finn so concerned about Albanian genetics? I see most of your posts is about us.
 
I read that 8% of Kosovo R1b is a special subclade related only to Kosovar's. Kosovar's really stand appart in Ballkans. There are 3 haplogroups centered in Kosovo E, J, R1b
 
I read that 8% of Kosovo R1b is a special subclade related only to Kosovar's. Kosovar's really stand appart in Ballkans. There are 3 haplogroups centered in Kosovo E, J, R1b
It's R1b- M269.
An older clade that is typical for Balkans, Bell Beakers were R1b...
 
It's R1b- M269.
An older clade that is typical for Balkans, Bell Beakers were R1b...
Thanks for the explanations. I am a beginner in genetics. I like the forum, your comments and Maciammo,s most of the time.
 

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