Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

what are you saying?
I gave you this link from ferri

besides at least 4% of Albanians must be H1 ( excluding the Roma) according to Ferri
2,5% Toska has H1 and only 0,6% Gegh . This is from mixing with Roma , and it was not in Balkans before XIV century. And mixing occured as late as second half of XX century , when many Roma were Albanized . Thats what I saying
 
I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.
 
I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.

We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.
 
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.
 
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

We are talking about logic of course Pyrub.Gegh Albanians or Kosovars mountainers are more isolated than Bosnians/Croats/Montenegro and the rest of Albanians.They lack the I2A2 gene they have the same Illyrian traits and most importantly the language.Kosovars are predominantly EV13 R1b and J2b.I think R1b is the Indo-European Illyrian trait.I2A2 fails to explain the Indo-European language of Albanians and their ancestors Illyrians.I2A2 is also found in Moldavia Ukraine and Belorusia at high amount.This is my opinion afterall.I dont know how can you exclude the Albanians from the logic when they have the language the traditions and mostly the south genes.Kind regards.
 
We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b
 
We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.
 
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion.

:rolleyes:

There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."

Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.
 
sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b

That sounds reasonable, they were probably an R1b IE branch with some other admixture like the Albanians and Hellenes.

while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.

Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.
 
Probably mountanious Albanians have much higher amount of R1b in them than those percentages that were taken from cities where they consider themselves more religious and didn't have problem to mix with slav and turkish muslims.
 
:rolleyes:



Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."



Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.

If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

In the case of Albanians.

Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.
 
If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Of course it leads to a disruption of gene flow, what's your point? That it's so impenetrable that migrations couldn't have happened so quickly? Don't forget that Y-DNA is a biased marker that tends to magnify effects of migration.

And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:

Ken Nordtvedt said:
I2a2a-Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

Now to figure out from where the expansion began? The traditional Slavic "homeland" of the Pripet marshes is as good a guess as anything for me at the moment.

At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.

Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

Attack the message, not the messenger... I'm warning you as a mod, not because you're arguing against me, specifically.

The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.

It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.

The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis.

Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.

It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

Except that's not my claim... I'm only saying that there was probably Y-DNA gene flow from migrations, probably Slavic, into the Balkans in the first millennium CE.

I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.

I'd love to see the data you've gathered to come to all these fascinating conclusions about me. :LOL:

Quoting myself:

You are getting at some very important points, and I encourage others to remember how imprecise things like Y-STR and geographic diversity analysis still are. But the knowledge of statistical fluctuations is out there already, as you point out yourself. Genetic drift, variable mutation rates, and strictly-genetic selection often do come up in hobbyist discussions. And if we're all wasting our time when we speculate, how were we able to predict Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup? We thought about the data we had, speculated, and more than half came up with the right answer. Obviously we need to keep everything you mention in mind and assume that things like date calculations still have large error bars. But just as obviously, genetic anthropology has already taught us a lot that we didn't know before. I suppose we just need to be more precise about what the possibility ranges are, instead of looking for single answers.
 
Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.

what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?

If we say Albanians are original people of the south balkans, then as per ancient historians who called them molossians or epirotes then maybe they had R1b and got the E from the doric/dardanian ( modern kosovars). this is something to find.

On another note, if Fenni found nearly 4% of H1 in albanian people ( not including the Roma ), then why is this H1 missing from Maciano's country numbers?
 
If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

In the case of Albanians.

Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.


are you then saying that the large area in the Balkans for the I2a2 indicates a people that mixed easily du to their knowledge with each other, be it linguistic or .... Then if this is true and the slavic speaking people entered the balkans in the 6th century AD, would suggest the marker I2a2 is original to western balkans.
This does to a degree contradict historians of the illyrian people in firstly opposing they where a seperate entity from each other and secondly opposing this E haplogroup as being an illyrian ( part ) one
 
What does "pure slavs" mean?
And who determined "pure slavs" are from russian areas?

If the Romans did not know of Slavs but knew about sarmatians, then when these "Slavs" migrated to the balkans in the 6th century, where did they come from?
I say "pure" slavs , because slovene, croat and serbian historians do not say they are slavs but say they speak a slavic tongue.
Since the sarmatians where the ones that migrated into the balkans are they slavs and if so, why did no Roman historian recognise them as slavs.
 
what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?

Well, I suspect that they were a population that contained a major "pre-Slavic" element from the region around Belarus. The South Slavic languages, when compared to the North Slavic languages, might give us some clues here about that influence, if it exists. But Balts are probably more direct descendants of the proto-Balto-Slavs, anyway, so looking for "pureness" of certain Slavs might not be worthwhile.

In short, I don't know... and we need to be careful with our terms.
 
And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:



At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.
That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.

How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.
It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

1) There's no evidence of it in history.
2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.

It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.
Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.
E-V13plus-frequency.jpg


Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
This is due to
1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.

Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.
You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.

I'm not arguing that I2a2 purely indigenous to the Balkans, my argument is that i don't believe there is any evidence to indicate that it's from recent arrival.


This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.
HaplogroupI2.png

The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.

It is my conclusion that E-V13 arrived at the Balkans through the Greek slave trade, that it was mostly absent is many parts of the Balkans 2000 years ago and that the indigenous people of the Balkans were primarily I2a2 carriers.

The Croats being R1a carriers of north Croatia, and the Dalmatian coast being carriers of indigenous I2a2.
 
If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

R1bmap.JPG


Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.
 
That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.

STR dating is an imperfect model with large error bars, but that doesn't make it "speculation," "hypothesis," and "totally bogus." And diversity analysis is much better than frequency analysis at demonstrating the movement of genes, and where they came from. So, yes, it is evidence, which supports my speculation and hypothesis about where I2a-Din came from, and when. For your speculation that Illyrians did have significant I2a-Din to be correct, the model would have to be wrong in this case, which is possible. But to assume that it is wrong in this case is to go against the evidence. OK?

It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

1) There's no evidence of it in history.
2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.

(1) is a valid point and it's important to square genetics with history. A starting point is to trace the expansion of Slavic languages. I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the subject, but others have put together coherent theories of the expansion of Slavs on the Balkans, like John V.A. Fine.

I feel that you have yet to demonstrate (2), however.

Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.
E-V13plus-frequency.jpg


Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
This is due to
1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.

That's a pretty good demonstration of an E1b founder, I didn't know about that before, but you're not really tackling the I2a-Din data. How do you explain only two clusters with little variation within them?

You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.

Huh? How did I do that? England is geographically isolated from the continent, and yet Anglo-Saxons appear to have introduced tons of R1b-U106.

This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.
HaplogroupI2.png

The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.

Well, it probably does indicate a longer period of time than the E1b foundry you're targeting. Or maybe not. Frequency gradients can be very deceiving, because we can get them from different patterns. For example, a sudden expansion and subsequent dilution in the area around the expansion point following the same geographic patterns will look like a long-term expansion if all we're looking at is frequency. So your frequency analysis proves little, although it's evidence for a longer period of expansion than the E1b. OK, so that could mean that the E1b expansion is more recent than the 1st millennium CE introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans. What's the diversity?
 

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