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Thread: Non-African populations inherited substantial X-chromosome segments from Neanderthal

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    Arrow Non-African populations inherited substantial X-chromosome segments from Neanderthal



    Oxford Journals : An X-linked haplotype of Neandertal origin is present among all non-African populations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford Journals
    Recent work on the Neandertal genome has raised the possibility of admixture between Neandertals and the expanding population of H. sapiens who left Africa between 80 Kya and 50 Kya to colonize the rest of the world. Here we provide evidence of a notable presence (9% overall) of a Neandertal-derived X chromosome segment among all contemporary human populations outside Africa. Our analysis of 6092 X-chromosomes from all inhabited continents supports earlier contentions that a mosaic of lineages of different time depths and different geographic provenance could have contributed to the genetic constitution of modern humans. It indicates a very early admixture between expanding African migrants and Neandertals prior to or very early on the route of the out-of-Africa expansion that led to the successful colonization of the planet.
    This is another blow on those who claimed that humanity descends exclusively from African Homo Sapiens. 9% is more than I expected, and this is just an average for Eurasia, Oceania and the Americas. According to the map at the bottom of the article, the Neanderthal haplotype B0006 exceeds 25% of the population among Native Americans from the west coast of the USA and Canada. On the other hand it is virtually absent from East Asia, Indonesia and Papua-New Guinea. In Europe, the region of Serbia and Albania appears to have the lowest Neanderthal admixture, in the continuity of the Levant and Egypt. This would be consistent with the higher percentage of the African haplogroup E1b1b.

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    So from what I can see on the map (I didn't read the whole article yet) it seems that the Balkans and central/south Italy (?!) have the lowest Neanderthal admixture in Europe, but Greece is colored darker (between 12% and 16% ?!), same as France maybe?

    How is that explained? Were there Neanderthals residing in Greece back then? Greece has similar Y-DNA admixture as the rest of the Balkans and Italy. So how can this be possible?

    Is there a picture of the map with better resolution?

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    It feels good to have own logic and believes confirmed. :)
    I didn't expect this to be so substantial though.
    Very interesting indeed.

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    This is so interesting, but that map is so frustrating.

    It looks like most of Europe is between 10% and 16%. I read some time ago that Chinese Anthropologists believed that Europeans were descended from Neanderthals because we have big noses like them. Looks like they were right.

    What seems very odd though is that far western North America is so high and far eastern Asia is so low. Could Native Americans have descended from a very small population which was unusually high? It's weird.

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    I thought that a complete elimination of the Neanderthals was unlikely.
    The results are very interesting.

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    they did step on some common genetics, but I am not sure whether to believe that is legacy of neandertals. I wouldnot bet on it.

    I would not relate it directly to haplogroup E, as other haplogroup E dominant areas n Euroasia and north Africa show higher spread of this haplotype... and Greece seems to be hotspot of the admixture while it has high percentage of haplogroup E....besides Red sea area is not to much different from rest of Saudi Arabian peninsula concerning Y-DNA, while this map shows quite a difference....so, whatever those results point to, it is not really directly mappable to Y-DNA spreads...

    For me it is interesting that admixture in south Slavs is similar (much less than in the rest of Euroasia) to Asia minor and Red sea area, and to Sogdiana & northwest China area.... those areas I relate to Seneca's Serians whom I consider to be proto-Serbs....

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    Possibly we didn't inherit any Y haplo from them. The paper talks about maternal X.
    Though I didn't have time to read it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Possibly we didn't inherit any Y haplo from them. The paper talks about maternal X.
    Though I didn't have time to read it yet.
    Then it makes more sense that Greece seems to have the same coloring as Western Europe while it has similar Y-DNA with Albania and Serbia, who have the lowest Neanderthal admixture according to the map.

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    This is all so very exciting findings. It seems to support the hypothesis that they disappeared so very quickly because of large scale interbreeding, meaning that they are still here and that they are - in part - us.

    The most intriguing is the high amount of Neanderthal genes in native North America. According to Spencer Wells, author of Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, the populations of the Americas stem from only a small group of 10 to 20 people, originating from central Asia. These facts considered, this seem to indicate that the peoples of central Asia originally had a much greater level of Neanderthal admixture, that has since been diluted - possibly by continuous migration out of Africa.

    Just my thoughts.

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    I do not think that takes a long time that the news is denied because of genetics in this then there are those who cast the bells ringing, I do not know how excited I know not how many, do not think those poor monsters with mixed feelings anyone, least by news of this nature is likely within 2 months is denied, beaten and trampled as a sensational story absurd to say the worst.

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    @Carlitos
    I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that this is a "cold fusion"-statement? What are the "poor monsters"?

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    Michael €

    Of course.

    They were the poor monsters, how can someone even think that the modern human gene can take one of those terrible things, but yes, you can use the same imagination that killed the monsters to imagine themselves to be truly human beings end self-destructing.

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    Maciamo
    Extraordinary findings.

    Generally, the low percent in Europe, I would expect higher.

    And not only Albania and Serbia, but also Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary etc. are low percents although the map is small and it would be good to be higher.

    But I don't see connection with E1b1b?

    In Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia E1b1b is not high <20%, but in some other countries E1b1b is a higher and they have more marked red on the map.

    East Asia or South Brazil and Argentina are without E1b1b but the color on the map is almost white.

    These are probably other reasons, and more knowledge will be gained through future studies.

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    ok, if the research about admixture of neandertals is correct, than the purest human race are black people of Africa, while among least pure human races are most of white people of Europe....

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    Lol, the confusion started. Home sapience and Neanderthals had common ancestor about 1-2 million years ago. After that time they united again in one species. What's not pure about this?

    Who do you mean by pure humans? Home Sapience, Cro Magnon (I think they were Croatian tribe BTW, ), Neanderthals, Homo Erectus (that's what my wife calls me )?

    I know what you meant, just having some fun with it. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlitos View Post
    Michael €

    Of course.

    They were the poor monsters, how can someone even think that the modern human gene can take one of those terrible things, but yes, you can use the same imagination that killed the monsters to imagine themselves to be truly human beings end self-destructing.
    I think you don't know much about Neanderthal. May I suggest you have a look at this : Neanderthal : facts and myths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    And not only Albania and Serbia, but also Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary etc. are low percents although the map is small and it would be good to be higher.

    But I don't see connection with E1b1b?

    In Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia E1b1b is not high <20%, but in some other countries E1b1b is a higher and they have more marked red on the map.
    When one reads a map like this it is important to look at the dots, which represent the samples with actual data. For Eastern Europe, there are data points in Poland, Serbia, Greece and Russia, but none in other countries. The author therefore had to speculate about the percentages in surrounding areas. They assumed that ex-Yugoslavia would be a somewhat homogeneous region genetically, which is very far from the truth when we look at Y-DNA frequencies. Bosnia and Croatia are hotspots for native European haplogroup I2a2, while southern Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece are a big hotspot for the African haplogroup E1b1b. I think the map is just distorted because of this mistaken assumption that Serbia equals Yugoslavia. Likewise, Greece is far from homogeneous and if the sample DNA was taken from a region rich in haplogroup R, I or J but poor in E (e.g. Crete), I would expect a fairly high percentage of Neanderthal admixture. I doubt that the dots were placed exactly where the samples came from. I also expect to find considerable interpersonal variations within Europe, especially in countries with a high genetic diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When one reads a map like this it is important to look at the dots, which represent the samples with actual data. For Eastern Europe, there are data points in Poland, Serbia, Greece and Russia, but none in other countries. The author therefore had to speculate about the percentages in surrounding areas. They assumed that ex-Yugoslavia would be a somewhat homogeneous region genetically, which is very far from the truth when we look at Y-DNA frequencies. Bosnia and Croatia are hotspots for native European haplogroup I2a2, while southern Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece are a big hotspot for the African haplogroup E1b1b. I think the map is just distorted because of this mistaken assumption that Serbia equals Yugoslavia. Likewise, Greece is far from homogeneous and if the sample DNA was taken from a region rich in haplogroup R, I or J but poor in E (e.g. Crete), I would expect a fairly high percentage of Neanderthal admixture. I doubt that the dots were placed exactly where the samples came from. I also expect to find considerable interpersonal variations within Europe, especially in countries with a high genetic diversity.
    Maciamo
    Thanks for the clarification.

    If you believe this has to do with the distribution of haplogroups E, then the data for Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia should have more red color.

    In Bosnia I was most represented in the Balkans but also I is highly in Serbia:

    Serbia (Mirabal et al, 2010) I 48%, R 19%, E 17%.

    For Croatia, peak for I is Dalmatia, but according to Pericic et al (2005) R1a is more common in Croatia than I.

    But in any case for all three countries, the map will be changed, and probably for Romania and Hungary.

    But the question remains why the East Asia and the southwestern part of Latin America are white on the map when there is no E haplogroup.

    So probably one of the the reason is yet insufficient data and it is possible that there are other reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Maciamo
    Thanks for the clarification.

    If you believe this has to do with the distribution of haplogroups E, then the data for Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia should have more red color.

    In Bosnia I was most represented in the Balkans but also I is highly in Serbia:

    Serbia (Mirabal et al, 2010) I 48%, R 19%, E 17%.

    For Croatia, peak for I is Dalmatia, but according to Pericic et al (2005) R1a is more common in Croatia than I.

    But in any case for all three countries, the map will be changed, and probably for Romania and Hungary.

    But the question remains why the East Asia and the southwestern part of Latin America are white on the map when there is no E haplogroup.

    So probably one of the the reason is yet insufficient data and it is possible that there are other reasons.

    I don't think that the percentage of I, J, R1a or R1b is very important. They probably all share similar Neanderthal admixture. What makes all the difference is the percentage of haplogroup E, and Serbia has a relatively high percentage by European standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't think that the percentage of I, J, R1a or R1b is very important. They probably all share similar Neanderthal admixture. What makes all the difference is the percentage of haplogroup E, and Serbia has a relatively high percentage by European standards.
    Maciamo

    Clearly, you are looking at Europe as a whole and this is the right approach.

    I was in this observation first focused on the Balkans, where E is more pronounced:

    Croatia 5.6% (Pericic et al, 2005),

    Bosnia 10.1% (Pericic et al, 2005),

    Serbia 17.3% (Mirabal et al, 2010),

    Bulgaria 20.7% (Cruciani et al, 2004),

    Romania 21.4% (Cruciani et al, 2004),

    Macedonia 24.1% (Pericic et al, 2005),

    Montenegro 27% (Mirabal et al 2010),

    Albania Tosk 28.10% (Ferri et al, 2010),

    Albania Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),

    Kosovo 45,6% (Pericic et al).


    If you think that I, J, R1a and R1b probably share a similar admixture of Neanderthal, it makes sense that due to the influence E in the Balkans decreasing percentages comparing to the rest of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Lol, the confusion started. Home sapience and Neanderthals had common ancestor about 1-2 million years ago. After that time they united again in one species. What's not pure about this?
    humans are one branch, Neanderthals are separate branch...
    according to the research we talk about, there was some cross-breading between species, but that just mean that some modern people have partly hybrid origin.... while black Africans remained pure human race.... there is no such a thing as uniting of species...


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When one reads a map like this it is important to look at the dots, which represent the samples with actual data. For Eastern Europe, there are data points in Poland, Serbia, Greece and Russia, but none in other countries.
    .....
    reece is far from homogeneous and if the sample DNA was taken from a region rich in haplogroup R, I or J but poor in E (e.g. Crete), I would expect a fairly high percentage of Neanderthal admixture.
    ....
    I don't think that the percentage of I, J, R1a or R1b is very important. They probably all share similar Neanderthal admixture. What makes all the difference is the percentage of haplogroup E, and Serbia has a relatively high percentage by European standards.
    your theory makes no sense...
    Greece has around 27% of haplogroup E, while Serbia has 17%-20% depending on sampling... according to the map Serbia has much less admixture from Neanderthals than Greece...and you claim that it is due to haplogroup E that has no admixture, but that in Greece they have probably somehow sampled all non E haplogroup people.... sorry, but your claim is somewhat funny and extremelly biased...

    you would do better if you try to pinpoint lineages that did mix.... but that is probably on level of subbranches and is not possible to determine from given data...

    lol, wanna hear much more logical explanation than your biased interpretation?

    Serbs were naturally white people, while others in Europe had to mix with Neanderthals to become white... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think you don't know much about Neanderthal. May I suggest you have a look at this : Neanderthal : facts and myths.
    Well, I've read almost all the work of Juan Luis Ursuaga, do not forget that in Spain we have one of the most important archaeological sites that exist to date and now it is true that is taking a more loving to Neardhental, but now suddenly I'm not going to love them unconditionally because fashion has changed the perception that they might have in the past.


    Ursuaga have them unconditional love, logic is all day in his bones, but I prefer to leave them in quarantine and how one day discover that modern Europeans are mixed with Neardhental, which I doubt, we Neardhental for a while, will become the overnight in the most wonderful creatures that creation is given.

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    It seems possible that I and J are a branch of a separate hominid lineage, perhaps a separate neanderthal lineage that doesn't have a B0006 marker. Since, what we see is that where E1b1b, I, and J, exist, there's very little B0006 marking.

    Per Maciamo's analysis, what is evident is that microsattelite frequency is not giving us a descriptive frequency of neanderthal admixture since the sattelites are functioning as a measure of collectively different populations. This is also a problem i pointed out with respect to y-halogroup frequency and varience in attemtping to locate a focal point of a haplogroup's origin. It won't be accurate until a high percentage of the population is tested, and the microsattelites become more representative of geography.

    It's also unusual that native americans have such a high neanderthal admixture and east asians have zero. We assume natives are of east asian origin?

    I'm also skeptical that B0006 measures neanderthal admixture at all. The focal point of west india is odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    It seems possible that I and J are a branch of a separate hominid lineage, perhaps a separate neanderthal lineage that doesn't have a B0006 marker. Since, what we see is that where E1b1b, I, and J, exist, there's very little B0006 marking.
    hm, this makes more sense... but I still would not relate this marker to key branches or even subbranches...

    based on given figure I do suggest something else....
    that this marker was absent in Asia minor as it perhaps developed in people who crossed from Asia to Europe via Caucasus or around Caspian sea....

    I would say that the supplied spread of B0006 marker is yet another indicator that south Slavs are closely related to previous inhabitants of Asia minor.... in my opinion, as I have repeated on many threads, south Slavs directly origin from Veneti and perhaps also from Cimmerians...

    we do not know where Veneti originally dwelt, but we know from Herodotous that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out of Asia minor somewhat after Troyan war due to their joint expedition with Cimmerians....and that they crossed to Thrace and some of them eventually settled Adriatic coast.... my guess is that from Thrace they spread in several directions giving Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti and Sarmatian Venedi (which are in my opinion same as Antes/Anti which is tribal name that is likely aslo derived from Eneti)... but they might have had originally spread from Balkan to Asia minor....

    we also know from Jordanes that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti.... we know that Cimmerians match I2a2 hotspots in Asia minor and above Black sea....


    Per Maciamo's analysis, what is evident is that microsattelite frequency is not giving us a descriptive frequency of neanderthal admixture since the sattelites are functioning as a measure of collectively different populations. This is also a problem i pointed out with respect to y-halogroup frequency and varience in attemtping to locate a focal point of a haplogroup's origin. It won't be accurate until a high percentage of the population is tested, and the microsattelites become more representative of geography.
    good point... it is really necessary to have much larger number of samples to be able to have conclusions about mapping of genetics to historical events....
    this way we can only guess.... and more often than not data given per countries of today, can be misleading....

    It's also unusual that native americans have such a high neanderthal admixture and east asians have zero. We assume natives are of east asian origin?
    true...
    good point...
    but keep in mind that this may be exactly due to the effect that you talked about.... as there seems to be only one sampled point in east Asia....so it can be very misleading....

    I'm also skeptical that B0006 measures neanderthal admixture at all. The focal point of west india is odd.
    exactly...

    approximate range of Homo neanderthalensis


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ra...rthalensis.png

    lol, it kind of resembles spread of R1b

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    Sorry to interrupt, but could someone please explain to me what detailed divisions of y-dna haplogroups have to do with Neanderthal-admixture?

    I thought the admixture took place around 50 to 80.000 years ago, long before such groups as R1b existed. I guess it was even before the last common ancestor of all 'Caucasians' lived. All over Eurasia Neanderthal genes distributed differently: while at some places the genes got more or less lost and just make some kind of 'genetic spam' , in other places these genes even provided an evolutionary advantage for the descendants.

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