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Thread: The founding and migration of I2a2b

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    The founding and migration of I2a2b



    I accept Ken Nordtvedt's conclusions about the timing of the founding of I2a2a and b.
    It is the location that seems a problem to me.
    ----------------
    The founding, migration and near extinction of I2a2b.

    If I am reading his Warped Founders Tree correctly, I2a2a and I2a2b branched
    off a proto I2a2 (that no longer exists?) about 13,000 years ago. That
    requires that the founders were in the same geography at that time. If
    northern Germany, how did all those !2a2a get all the way back down into the
    Balkans? Difficult, if not impossible. Especially with the Carpathians in the way.
    Much simpler to see the location as being the area of deltas of the Danube
    and Dneister. Then, perhaps in the warm spell before the Younger Dryas, the
    two groups migrated upriver - I2a2a going up the Danube and I2a2b going up
    the Dneister - leading to a quick clean split. The impassibility of the
    Carpathians reinforced and maintained the split over time.
    The I2a2b moved on, seems likely, to Doggerland and the I2a2a were contained in the Balkans.


    -----------
    Doggerland Genetic Bottleneck: N >>> N*
    Caused by the combined effects of the Younger Dryas, the 8.200 kiloyear climate event, Lake Agassiz drainage sharply raising sea level by 3 meters, and the three Storegga tsunamis.
    -
    As Doggerland submerged and the land divided, the I2a2b were split - a few
    on the west side and a very few, perhaps as few as a single individual, on the east but the majority were trapped and slowly dying out on shrinking Doggerland islands where they were running out of firewood (as happened at Easter Island). They had neither the marine technology to escape the slowly rising water nor the wood to make boats. This was happening during the Younger Dryas glacial period so the population would have had a hard time maintaining themselves during this long time of land subsidence and bitter cold. A population collapse would seem very likely as a result.
    -
    Then, after the end of the Younger Dryas, there were four catastrophic events over the span of less than a couple hundred years. Lake Agassiz drained, raising the sea level 1 to 3 meters in a matter of only a few days time and causing the "8.2 kiloyear event", a cold period, perhaps 5˚ below normal, lasting about 3 centuries. This would have caused major habitat and resource destruction in the low flat islands and shorelines of Doggerland and severe disruption of the food supply resulting great loss of life.
    -
    Then the remnants of Doggerland were destroyed and the remaining I2a2b were nearly exterminated by the three devastating Storegga Tsunamis about 6,200 BC creating a major genetic "bottleneck" (e.g. N*=small). This "bottleneck" might go a long ways toward explaining the very long time between the founding of I2a2b about 13,000 ya and and the TMRCA only about 5,000 ya. It might also explain the relatively low numbers of I2a2b overall.
    -
    It is thought that the sea rise from Lake Agassiz and the Storegga tsunamis resulted in the opening of the English Channel, isolating those peoples who were on Britain. At first the channel opening may have been narrow enough and shallow enough to walk across at low tide, but the sea level continued rising at the rate of a meter a century, so the walking period did not last very long.


    ----------------------
    Thriving on Britain

    Over on the west bank - in a large area now under water off East Anglia - Isles C was founded and thrived. The continued rise of sea level drove them to the west where they dispersed throughout Britain.
    Isles A split off from a remnant of Isles B about 3000 BC. Then Isles C2 and D
    split off from C about 2000 BC in Ireland.
    -
    Some 6,000 years after the tsunamis, and 2,500 years after the split of C and D, the Anglo-Saxon and other "late" invasions started conceivably containing some B from those very few folks left on the continent 6,000 years before. Isles is a minuscule part of the continental gene pool and therefore any contribution to the gene pool of Isles B in Britain and Ireland would be minuscule and add none at all to groups A, C, and D.
    --------------
    This is speculation, logical deduction, and conjecture, but it seems to fit the
    currently known (to me) facts.
    Thoughts? Poke holes in it so I can improve the hypothesis.
    ----------------
    Excellent paper on the Storegga Tsunami:
    The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the Storegga Slide tsunami

    http//sprint.clivar.org/soes/staff/ejr/Rohling-papers/2008-Weninger%20et%20al%20Documenta%20Praehistorica.pdf
    Last edited by jdanel; 05-02-11 at 17:45. Reason: move images to this post

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    The timing of the founding of I2a2a and b is not something that I know
    anything about so I have to accept Ken Nordtvedt's conclusions about that.
    It is the location that seems a problem to me.
    ----------------
    The founding and migration
    If I am reading his Warped Founders Tree correctly, I2a2a and I2a2b branched
    off a proto I2a2 (that no longer exists?) about 13,000 years ago. That
    requires that the founders were in the same geography at that time. If
    northern Germany, how did all those !2a2a get all the way back down into the
    Balkans? Difficult, if not impossible. Especially with the Carpathians in the way.
    Much simpler to see the location as being the area of deltas of the Danube
    and Dneister. Then, perhaps in the warm spell before the Younger Dryas, the
    two groups migrated upriver - I2a2a going up the Danube and I2a2b going up
    the Dneister - leading to a quick clean split. The impassibility of the
    Carpathians reinforced and maintained the split over time.
    The I2a2b moved on, seems likely, to Doggerland and the I2a2a were contained in the Balkans.
    -----------
    Doggerland Genetic Bottleneck: N >>> N*
    Caused by the combined effects of the Younger Dryas, Lake Agassiz drainage, and the three Storegga tsunamis.
    As Doggerland submerged and the land divided, the I2a2b were split - a few
    on the west side and a very few on the east but the majority were trapped and slowly dying out on shrinking Doggerland islands where they were running out of firewood (as happened at Easter Island). They had neither the marine
    technology to escape the slowly rising water nor the wood to make boats. This was happening during the Younger Dryas glacial period so the population would have had a hard time maintaining themselves during this long time of land subsidence and bitter cold. A population collapse would seem very likely as a result.
    Then, at the end of the Younger Dryas, there were four catastrophic events
    over the span of less than a couple hundred years. Lake Agassiz
    drained, raising the sea level 1 to 3 meters in a matter of only a few days time. This would have caused major habitat and resource destruction in the low flat islands and shorelines of Doggerland resulting great loss of life. Then the remnants of Doggerland were destroyed and the remaining I2a2b were nearly exterminated by the three devastating Storegga Tsunamis about 6,200 BC creating a major genetic "bottleneck" (e.g. N*=small). This "bottleneck" might go a long ways toward explaining the very long time between the founding of I2a2b about 13,000 ya and and the TMRCA only about 5,000 ya. It might also explain the relatively low numbers of I2a2b overall.
    [ Another intriguing idea is that the I2a2*, which has not yet been found anywhere, could have been driven to complete extinction by the combined effects of these catastrophies. ]
    -------------------- --
    Thriving on Britain
    Over on the west bank - now England - Isles C was founded and thrived.
    Isles A split off from a remnant of Isles B about 3000 BC. Then Isles C2 and D
    split off from C about 2000 BC in Ireland.
    Some 2,500 years after the split of C and D, the Anglo-Saxon invasion started
    conceivably containing some B from those few folks left on the continent 6,000 years before. Certainly it seems this would have to be a minuscule contribution to the total gene pool of Isles B in Britain and Ireland and none at all to groups A, C, and D.
    --------------
    This is speculation, logical deduction, and conjecture, but it seems to fit the
    currently known (to me) facts.
    Thoughts? Poke holes in it so I can improve the hypothesis.
    ----------------
    Excellent paper on the Storegga Tsunami:
    The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the Storegga Slide tsunami

    sprint.clivar.org/soes/staff/ejr/Rohling-papers/2008-Weninger%20et%20al%20Documenta%20Praehistorica.pdf

    You will have to add the hppt part because I can't post URLs yet.
    Nordtvedt has dated I2a2b-Isles squarely in the Neolithic. However, there are those such as Tim Owen [see the Ingenta blog, 'Genes of the Cruthin' 2010, by Ian Adamson and Tim Owen] who have argued for a Mesolithic dating and an entry to Britain via Doggerland and possible links to the narrowblade culture.

    Nordtvedt sees I2a2b-Isles as hitting the British shores around 6,000 years ago. There were other 'early I clades' too such as [the earliest] the Iberia-founded M26 I2a1, I2* and I2b1a-English.

    According to Nordtvedt, I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany. Perhaps it got there via LBK bands. From northern Germany, where the snp L161 was 'born', I2a2b-Isles was probably carried to Britain and Ireland via successive waves of people- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. Owen has conjectured that the Anglo-Saxons account for at least some of the I2a2b distribution in England and lowland Scotland. Apparently, Bryan Sykes is in agreement. One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a1 in the historical period.

    There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b-Isles- A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D as well as the oldest B subclade represented on the continent. Germany has most members.

    The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland. Here, Tim Owen has conjectured, there may be a link to the Cruthin- allegedly Ireland's earliest post-LGM inhabitants. Owen draws attention to a hotspot for subclades C and D around Rathcroghan in County Roscommon, which was once a Cruthin satellite settlement [see 'Genes of the Cruthin'], the bulk of Cruthin settlement being in Ulster.

    In Ireland, the subclades appear to be concentrated in the western half of the island, in what are argubly 'refuge' areas. The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one.

    More research needs to be conducted on I2a2b. It is clearly north-west European and absent in eastern Europe. The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago. Eventually, I hope, the databases will enlarge so that we are able to say more about this fascinating little clade.

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    Thank you for the reply, Yorkie.
    -
    There is a map of this at: groups.ancestry.com/group/35649022/media/124835614
    You will have to add the http// part since, as a new member, I can't post a URL nor a graphic.
    -
    I just want to clarify a few points (the tone of these may seem argumentative, but it is not intended that way):

    "The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago"

    Nordtvedt says I2a2b founded from whom? Who were the branchlines?, 13,000 years ago ≠ neolithic in northern Germany?

    "snp L161 was 'born'" about 6,000 ya, but Nordtvedt shows the split about 13,000 ya. So L161 is not the split that defines the founding? What is? The extinct? I2a2*?

    "One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities". Yes, minuscule amounts however.

    "[for a small clade]" I am suggesting the Doggerland disasters as the cause of that Bottleneck smallness.

    "There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D" I have not found that data. Where should I be looking for it?

    "A, C, and D ... on the continent" Given the founding dates of A, C, and D these would have to be back migrations, would they not?

    " in what are argubly 'refuge' areas" Refuge from what? From the Anglo-Saxons and Danes and such as the ice was long since gone?

    "The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one." I agree, but this is in complete conflict with Sykes ideas, isn't it?

    A quote from Tim Owen: "However, I am inclined to trust Ken Nordtvedt's age estimates of I2a2b-Isles, and my view is that in many cases our clade represents some of the oldest stock in Britain [possibly Cruthin]. Having said that, I tend to see I2a2b-Isles as possibly hitting the shores in different 'waves', at different times. I can, for example, imagine a tiny percentage of I2a2b-Isles being brought to England and lowland Scotland by lower-Elbe Germanics. I struggle to envisage the Norse carrying I2a2b-Isles though- as Rootsi et al [2004] said,I2a2 is 'absent' in Scandinavia... " Not too much agreement with Sykes in this: "trust Ken", "tiny percentage" and "struggle to envisage"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Thank you for the reply, Yorkie.
    -
    There is a map of this at: groups.ancestry.com/group/35649022/media/124835614
    You will have to add the http// part since, as a new member, I can't post a URL nor a graphic.
    -
    I just want to clarify a few points (the tone of these may seem argumentative, but it is not intended that way):

    "The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago"

    Nordtvedt says I2a2b founded from whom? Who were the branchlines?, 13,000 years ago ≠ neolithic in northern Germany?

    "snp L161 was 'born'" about 6,000 ya, but Nordtvedt shows the split about 13,000 ya. So L161 is not the split that defines the founding? What is? The extinct? I2a2*?

    "One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities". Yes, minuscule amounts however.

    "[for a small clade]" I am suggesting the Doggerland disasters as the cause of that Bottleneck smallness.

    "There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D" I have not found that data. Where should I be looking for it?

    "A, C, and D ... on the continent" Given the founding dates of A, C, and D these would have to be back migrations, would they not?

    " in what are argubly 'refuge' areas" Refuge from what? From the Anglo-Saxons and Danes and such as the ice was long since gone?

    "The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one." I agree, but this is in complete conflict with Sykes ideas, isn't it?

    A quote from Tim Owen: "However, I am inclined to trust Ken Nordtvedt's age estimates of I2a2b-Isles, and my view is that in many cases our clade represents some of the oldest stock in Britain [possibly Cruthin]. Having said that, I tend to see I2a2b-Isles as possibly hitting the shores in different 'waves', at different times. I can, for example, imagine a tiny percentage of I2a2b-Isles being brought to England and lowland Scotland by lower-Elbe Germanics. I struggle to envisage the Norse carrying I2a2b-Isles though- as Rootsi et al [2004] said,I2a2 is 'absent' in Scandinavia... " Not too much agreement with Sykes in this: "trust Ken", "tiny percentage" and "struggle to envisage"
    Hi. I'm just suggesting that the snp L161 was 'born' in northern Germany, and the date of 6,000 years ago is the first time it hit the British shores [probably entering via Scotland first, as is suggested by Owen].

    The data is with Ken Nordtvedt, and also can be accessed by members of the Ancestry.com 'L161 I2a2b-Isles' group. Aiden Mulvihill compiled the map. It clearly shows members in A, C and D subclades on the continent. Nordtvedt has confirmed their presence too. Whether this is due to back-migration, I do not know.

    Tim Owen's view is that the 'refuge' areas of the south-west, Connaught, parts of Ulster etc are 'refuges' for the pre-Celtic Cruthin and related peoples against the Gaelic incursions.

    The only conflict between Owen and Sykes is in terms of the dating of I2a2 in Britain. Sykes is yet to be convinced by substantial dates that I2a2 dates to the Neolithic. He consequently sees all I2a2 as being brought to Britain and Ireland by 'invaders'- in England and Scotland by Anglo Saxons in the main , and in Ireland by Norse and Normans. Tim Owen's position is slightly different. He concurs with Nordtvedt's dating of I2a2 in Britain/Ireland but agrees with Sykes that in some cases the Anglo Saxons are responsible for carrying small quantities of I2a2b into England and lowland Scotland. He rejects the idea that Scandinavians were involved. His favoured Germanic carriers are definately Anglo-Saxons. Owen regards the vast bulk of I2a2b in Ireland as pre-Celtic. Originally, Nordtvedt just spoke about I2a2b as being echoes of the post-LGM settlers. Owen then suggested that different 'waves' of peoples, at different times, [pre-Celts, Celts and Anglo-Saxons, his 'lower-Elbe Germanics'] carried I2a2b to England and Scotland etc. Sykes has regarded I2a2 in Britain as having an 'invader' origin since at least the start of his Oxford Ancestors commercial testing.

    Something else that might interest you. I am I2a2b on my Yline [and I1 on my Maternal Grandfather's Yline] and recently asked Peter Forster to run my haplotype through his huge, anonymised Cambridge data-base. Where was the hot-spot? England? Ireland? No... Germany! So, one rather suspects that there is more I2a2b out there on the continent than is realised. The public databases like SMGF and YSEARCH are limited. This find of Forster's is on an I2a2b-Isles D2 signature, not the oldest B subclade...

    As an aside, Forster also confirmed a hot-spot of Norway for my Maternal Grandfather's I1 signature. It is worth having haplotypes reanalysed by his 'Roots for Real/Genetic Ancestor' team. Their database is much bigger than any Ysearch/SMGF database.

    Which subclade of I2a2b you in, if any?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    The timing of the founding of I2a2a and b is not something that I know
    anything about so I have to accept Ken Nordtvedt's conclusions about that.
    It is the location that seems a problem to me.
    ----------------
    The founding and migration
    If I am reading his Warped Founders Tree correctly, I2a2a and I2a2b branched
    off a proto I2a2 (that no longer exists?) about 13,000 years ago. That
    requires that the founders were in the same geography at that time. If
    northern Germany, how did all those !2a2a get all the way back down into the
    Balkans? Difficult, if not impossible. Especially with the Carpathians in the way.
    Much simpler to see the location as being the area of deltas of the Danube
    and Dneister. Then, perhaps in the warm spell before the Younger Dryas, the
    two groups migrated upriver - I2a2a going up the Danube and I2a2b going up
    the Dneister - leading to a quick clean split. The impassibility of the
    Carpathians reinforced and maintained the split over time.
    The I2a2b moved on, seems likely, to Doggerland and the I2a2a were contained in the Balkans.
    great explanation!
    there is some I2a2a as far as south Germany...
    I2b probably did take Dniester route together with I2a2b...

    Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe is related to Danube

    and Byzantine emperor did record (though several centuries after the event) settlements of Serbs from Bohemia on Balkan...and Bohemia is on this route along the Danube...

    Scordisci are as well spread along this route.... from them tribe named Serdi entered Thrace...




    btw. this source area between Dniester and Danube is roughly Moldova... Moldova has high frequency of I2a2 but the variance is low there, much lower than area just northeast of it above Black sea... so perhaps the source was above Black sea and still the routes of spread towards west were twofold as indicated by you...

    spread could have been all around Black sea,,,as Veneti are on south shores of Black sea... later when Veneti moved to Europe they settled also in area of north Adriatic coast and due to that today there is variance hotspot in Slovenia....
    according to Jordanes, early Slavs belong to populous race of Veneti

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    Y_____, I think we may be in about 99% agreement.
    -
    So the born date is the 13,500 y.a., yes? (For that date, Moldova is getting my vote for now.) Then what points to the arrival in Britain as being 6,000 year ago? As opposed to 8,200 y.a. for the Storegga/Agassiz events?
    ----------------
    "It clearly shows members in A, C and D subclades on the continent. "
    One A in France, 2 D in Denmark, and 5 C elsewhere. I wouldn't suggest that shows much of a continental presence for them. Low enough to be considered irrelevant, maybe?
    "So, one rather suspects that there is more I2a2b out there on the continent than is realised." Yes, definitely B, but maybe not A, C, and D. What does Forster mean by hotspot on that D2? Is he running comparisons on enough markers to make that distinction? (some suspect Sykes is not)
    ---------------
    "6,000 years ago is the first time it hit the British shores [probably entering via Scotland first, as is suggested by Owen]" How about East Anglia, near where the landbridge was and where, at that time, the narrowest gap probably was?
    -----------------
    "Tim Owen's view is that the 'refuge' areas of the south-west, Connaught, parts of Ulster etc are 'refuges' for the pre-Celtic Cruthin and related peoples against the Gaelic incursions." I think this must be the case, but...
    Sykes says "in Ireland by Norse and Normans." If so, then the clear zone around Dublin on Aiden's map would be filled with various I2a2, when in fact it is devoid of such. And also would be stronger in the Anglo Saxon areas, but it is not.
    Yes, some tiny bit showed up with the later invaders, but the vast majority seems to be from the early invaders.
    -----------------------
    I am Isles A1 with my closest - 750 y.a. - links to O'Driscolls of Cork. The genealogy says Cheshire and Bristol, but no dna matches from anywhere in England yet.
    -------------------------
    This is the url for the hi-resolution map. http://danel.us/resources/Grandfathers+Path7.gif

    Last edited by jdanel; 07-02-11 at 01:10. Reason: correct a typo

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    Last edited by jdanel; 07-02-11 at 01:05. Reason: to delete

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    TMRCA, per Nordtvedt May 2010

    L161 – Isles-A --- 1500 years
    L161 – Isles-B --- 5370 years including Continental haplotypes
    L161 – Isles-B --- 4740 years excluding all Continental haplotypes
    L161 – Isles-C --- 2730 years
    L161 – Isles-D --- 2520 years

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    it could be interesting to link I2a2 with red hair features in Scotland and Ireland

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    A quote from a posting by Dr. Nordtvedt:

    "a prolonged cold period of over a thousand years duration --- the Younger Dryas. It was probably the most recent severe demographic setback our ancestors around Europe experienced. Although y haplogroup I (y-Hg I) was by then a mature-in-age haplogroup, being perhaps 10,000 years old already, I conclude from collecting and examining between five and ten thousand haplotypes of y-Hg I today that only nine males emerged from Younger Dryas with surviving male-line descendants today. These Younger Dryas Nine now have tens of millions of male descendants in Europe and elsewhere on the globe where Europeans have settled in recent centuries.

    These nine Hg I males were ancestors, indeed very ancient ancestors, of various European* haplogroup TMRCAs (founders) with present population names:

    I1
    I2*
    I2a*
    I2a1
    I2a2a
    I2a2b
    I2a3
    I2b1
    I2b2

    Note: There are no known haplotypes today of haplogroups I* and I2b*; this is an artifact to some degree of the accidental order of y-SNP discoveries and the haplogroup naming rules --- today's inventory of known y-SNPs being just a drop in the bucket compared to all existing y-SNPs in the phylogenetic tree. The tree, drawn to time scale, without the names on it, more closely represents the nature of our phylogenetic knowledge today.

    12,000 B.P. each of these nine males were not alone; each was living in a surrounding hunter-gatherer male population of immediate family, extended family, clan, tribe, etc. Some of these neighboring males carried y haplotypes very close to one of the nine and descended from common ancestors not too much further back in time. These clades of haplotypes surrounding each of the nine could be counted in the tens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of contemporaries.

    But due to very high extinction probabilities for these male lines, exceeding 99 percent, these nine lucky ones emerged as sole representatives of their clades having surviving lines today. Many y-clades no doubt went completely extinct in that era."

    And in a different post: "We are looking at a species at the razor edge of overall extinction in
    Europe until the last several millenia --- at least that's my perspective right now. Ken"

    ----------------
    The Younger Dryas was tough, but so were those folks. It didn't kill them off, but it probably kept population growth to near zero. The tsunamis and the Lake Agassiz drainage were killers, though.
    Last edited by jdanel; 30-01-11 at 16:02. Reason: adding

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    "Timeline of key events from Interclade and Intraclade Variances
    -
    13,500 b.p. The two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles separate.
    -
    6,000 b.p. Two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2b-Isles-B(&A) and to I2a2b-Isles-C(&D) separate
    -
    5,600 b.p. TMRCA for 17 Continental members of Clade B
    -
    4.800 b.p. TMRCA for 34 Isles members of Clade B (A/B node about the same time)
    -
    3,900 b.p. TMRCA of Clade C (C/D node about the same time)
    -
    2,500 b.p. TMRCA of Clade D
    -
    1,500 b.p. TMRCA of clade A"
    -
    per Nordtvedt, Mar 2010
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1270062919

    end of quote -

    The 13,500 location seems to fit Moldova.

    All the rest may have happened in what I shall call "Greater East Anglia" as that large area of Doggerland to the west of the the early English Channel as it formed.

    There has to be a real name for that location. Anybody know what it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    it could be interesting to link I2a2 with red hair features in Scotland and Ireland
    I think the I2a2b are black hair, blue eyes, and very pale skin. In the US they may be called "Black Irish" because of the hair color. I have heard that this term is not used or recognized in Ireland.

    The "red hair" conversation is being done on another thread.
    Last edited by jdanel; 30-01-11 at 15:42. Reason: OOPS, I meant I2a2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    I think the I2a2a are black hair, blue eyes, and very pale skin. In the US they may be called "Black Irish" because of the hair color. I have heard that this term is not used or recognized in Ireland.

    The "red hair" conversation is being done on another thread.
    I don't believe that I2a2a have black hair at all. Why? Because the black hair is probably among rearest hair color among Slavic peoples which are typical representatives of I2a2a. I was wroting about that here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26164

    So the red hair is really interesting to be investigated considering early descriptions of Slavs and I2a2 distribution.

    And I don't see what makes you believe that division of I2a2a and I2a2b happened in Moldavia? Upper Danube basin (region of today Moravia and around Viennna) was much probably place for division. It is close to region were some I2a* haplotypes also exist. (Alpine and France variant). Some I2a2* population lived in Danube Basin for long time and Danube was their entrance to Europe, not the region north of Carpathians as you suggested.
    Lepenski vir culture is clear evidence of that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

    In the region of Moldavia there is no other I haplotypes except I2a2Dinaric North ( end those due to recent migrations of Slavs), and I don't understand what makes you to think that it was region of diferenentation between I2a2a and I2a2b.

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    [QUOTE=iapodos;364554]I don't believe that I2a2a have black hair at all. W

    OOPS, I meant I2a2b, my family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    And I don't see what makes you believe that division of I2a2a and I2a2b happened in Moldavia? Upper Danube basin (region of today Moravia and around Viennna) was much probably place for division. It is close to region were some I2a* haplotypes also exist. (Alpine and France variant). Some I2a2* population lived in Danube Basin for long time and Danube was their entrance to Europe, not the region north of Carpathians as you suggested.
    Lepenski vir culture is clear evidence of that.

    I do not disagree with that for most of the I2 variants, but if I2a2b were in the Danube basin back then, why are they not there now? All the others are still represented there to some extent.

    It would require some sort of selective extinction of the I2a2b in the Danube. Has anyone suggested a mechanism for this selective extinction?

    However, if we consider that the I2a2a were in those lovely protected lands along the Danube where they were easily able to thrive and multiply. If I2a2b had been there, they would have thrived too. But they did not. Why not? They were up on the northern plain suffering the vicissitudes of the Younger Dryas and, to use Nordtvedt's phrase, "at the razor edge of overall extinction"

    Beyond that, it is not clear to me that I2a2a and I2a2b separated from each other directly. It seems that they probably both branched off a prior variety of I2a2-something, could be I2a2* or something else. So I am not saying, and doubt, that Mr. I2a2b's father was Mr. I2a2a. Just saying that they were not all that far apart geographically. Maybe the distance from Moldova to the Danube. Mr. I2a2a could very well have been born somewhere up the Danube from another I2a2-something father. This is why I did not draw an intersection of a and b. I think this is what Nordtvedt is saying in the quote back up in message 11.

    How is Lepinski Vir evidence for any of this? One might very well expect that I2a2a would be there, but the only way it could have any bearing on this is if I2a2b were found there. Has Y-dna from Lepinski Vir been published?
    Last edited by jdanel; 30-01-11 at 19:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    I think the I2a2b are black hair, blue eyes, and very pale skin. In the US they may be called "Black Irish" because of the hair color. I have heard that this term is not used or recognized in Ireland.

    How can you make the diffrence between I2a2b Irish and All the other R1b Irish

    [/QUOTE]The "red hair" conversation is being done on another thread.[/QUOTE]


    Which thread ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    How can you make the diffrence between I2a2b Irish and All the other R1b Irish
    The "red hair" conversation is being done on another thread.[/QUOTE]


    Which thread ?[/QUOTE]
    Here for one:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25346

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    I think the I2a2b are black hair, blue eyes, and very pale skin. In the US they may be called "Black Irish" because of the hair color. I have heard that this term is not used or recognized in Ireland.

    The "red hair" conversation is being done on another thread.
    I don't see any evidence for this at all. I am I2a2b but fair-haired and blue-eyed. We inherit genes from so many lines of ancestry. Perhaps my fair-hair and blue eyes are inherited from my maternal Grandfather who was I1? Or they may have come from my father who is obviously I2a2b? Who knows? I have never undergome autosomal testing.

    I think the so-called 'Black Irish' are many, many times more likely to be R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I don't see any evidence for this at all. I am I2a2b but fair-haired and blue-eyed. We inherit genes from so many lines of ancestry. Perhaps my fair-hair and blue eyes are inherited from my maternal Grandfather who was I1? Or they may have come from my father who is obviously I2a2b? Who knows? I have never undergome autosomal testing.

    I think the so-called 'Black Irish' are many, many times more likely to be R1b.
    exactly...
    I do not think that Y-DNA is directly related to hair and eyes color...
    from what I understand, Y-DNA is just very small part of our genetics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Y_____, I think we may be in about 99% agreement.
    -
    So the born date is the 13,500 y.a., yes? (For that date, Moldova is getting my vote for now.) Then what points to the arrival in Britain as being 6,000 year ago? As opposed to 8,200 y.a. for the Storegga/Agassiz events?
    ----------------
    "It clearly shows members in A, C and D subclades on the continent. "
    One A in France, 2 D in Denmark, and 5 C elsewhere. I wouldn't suggest that shows much of a continental presence for them. Low enough to be considered irrelevant, maybe?
    "So, one rather suspects that there is more I2a2b out there on the continent than is realised." Yes, definitely B, but maybe not A, C, and D. What does Forster mean by hotspot on that D2? Is he running comparisons on enough markers to make that distinction? (some suspect Sykes is not)
    ---------------
    "6,000 years ago is the first time it hit the British shores [probably entering via Scotland first, as is suggested by Owen]" How about East Anglia, near where the landbridge was and where, at that time, the narrowest gap probably was?
    -----------------
    "Tim Owen's view is that the 'refuge' areas of the south-west, Connaught, parts of Ulster etc are 'refuges' for the pre-Celtic Cruthin and related peoples against the Gaelic incursions." I think this must be the case, but...
    Sykes says "in Ireland by Norse and Normans." If so, then the clear zone around Dublin on Aiden's map would be filled with various I2a2, when in fact it is devoid of such. And also would be stronger in the Anglo Saxon areas, but it is not.
    Yes, some tiny bit showed up with the later invaders, but the vast majority seems to be from the early invaders.
    -----------------------
    I am Isles A1 with my closest - 750 y.a. - links to O'Driscolls of Cork. The genealogy says Cheshire and Bristol, but no dna matches from anywhere in England yet.
    -------------------------
    http://danel.us/resources/Grandfathers+Path6.gif

    This is the url for the map. I am going to try to post it here when I get the size reduced enough.
    Nordtvedt suggested the date of 6,000 years for when I2a2b first hit the shores. My mathematics is not up to me arguing why not.

    As far as I recall, Nordtvedt had a full record of continental members for each subclade. I wish I could find them, and might email to get them again. There are more members for the continent than Aiden's map shows. There are Ds in Belgium and Germany for a start. Ken described continental membership himself as 'decent' recently.

    Forster tested me on 43 markers- enough resolution to make Germany the hotspot. Don't forget, his Cambridge database is one of the biggest globally.

    As I said previoualy, I too think the bulk [which is located in Ireland] came with the 'early invaders', i.e, pre-Celts. However, the English and lowland Scots distribution suggests the Anglo-Saxons played a part, as Sykes too suggests. It may be a small part but it is worth emphasising. What concerns me is an accurate picture of I2a2b, as I am sure that that is the same for you. In the past, people tended to regard I2a2b-Isles as Ken calls it as an 'Irish' clade. Clearly, that is no longer tenable with enough membership elsewhere, especially in England, to challenge any idea of an Irish monopoly on the clade.

    What does intrigue me, and I wonder what your view on this is, why there appears to be an absence of I2a2b in Wales?

    No offence intended but I seriously don't think we can tie I2a2b in Ireland with black hair etc. The so-called 'Black Irish' are far more likely to be R1b. In any case, some I2a2b are fair-haired Englishmen [admittedly, in my case, with an I1 Maternal Grandfather who gets more Norwegian matches than British].

    Good to see that there are fellow researchers out there like your good self with a passion for I2a2b. We really don't have enough data as yet though.

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    Wales is a very interesting question and I have not seen anyone post a reasonable suggestion as to why that might be. The clear zone (to whatever extent that it is not just a data artifact) around Dublin does have a probable cause, but not Wales so far as I know. No idea at all.

    43 markers should be plenty. Too bad we can't get open access to the data, linking through y-search or some such.

    Maybe the 6,000 years relates to the timing of the AB/CD node independent of geography. If the 8,200 years is out, then we need a way to get the continentals back across the channel with their TMRCA of 5,600 years. By 6,000 ya, the English Channel was a serious obstacle.

    As to the hair - I yield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Wales is a very interesting question and I have not seen anyone post a reasonable suggestion as to why that might be. The clear zone (to whatever extent that it is not just a data artifact) around Dublin does have a probable cause, but not Wales so far as I know. No idea at all.

    43 markers should be plenty. Too bad we can't get open access to the data, linking through y-search or some such.

    Maybe the 6,000 years relates to the timing of the AB/CD node independent of geography. If the 8,200 years is out, then we need a way to get the continentals back across the channel with their TMRCA of 5,600 years. By 6,000 ya, the English Channel was a serious obstacle.

    As to the hair - I yield.
    I'll email Ken and try to find out the up to date breakdown of continental members in the subclades. There is more data than on Aiden's map [good though it is].

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    From March 2010 [Rootsweb], Ken Nordtvedt gave the following breakdown of continental members [Germany, France, Belgium etc] of the subclades of L161 I2a2b-Isles:

    Clade A: 0/48
    Clade B: 17/51
    Clade C: 7/55
    Clade D: 6/68

    So there were then 30 continentals out of 222 known 'Isles' haplotypes.

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    No Clade A. Surprising.

    17 B may be what we expected and C being the next oldest may be expected to be proportional, but D, being the youngest and about equal to C, is another surprise.

    Do you have any thoughts on why this shakes out like this?

    If the C and D were due to some random back migration over time, why not A? Seems very odd.

    -----
    222 total is not too far from the number on Aiden's map. Maybe it just needs a minor update.

    ----
    I think KN said he has looked through tens of thousands of tests. I wonder how large the number of total samples is that contains our 222 intrepid souls. A couple of tens of thousands would put us in the 1% range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    No Clade A. Surprising.

    17 B may be what we expected and C being the next oldest may be expected to be proportional, but D, being the youngest and about equal to C, is another surprise.

    Do you have any thoughts on why this shakes out like this?

    If the C and D were due to some random back migration over time, why not A? Seems very odd.

    -----
    222 total is not too far from the number on Aiden's map. Maybe it just needs a minor update.

    ----
    I think KN said he has looked through tens of thousands of tests. I wonder how large the number of total samples is that contains our 222 intrepid souls. A couple of tens of thousands would put us in the 1% range.
    JD,
    Actually, I have an update for you- Ken emailed me back with some more up to date statistics:

    Clade A: 1/53
    Clade B: 18/65
    Clade C: 5/63
    Clade D: 6/80

    Maybe he reclassified a few haplotypes, but this is the score as of now. So the latest figure is 30 continentals out of 261 known 'Isles' haplotypes. That we are a little group is beyond doubt. Mind you, I only think of the paternal Y line as part of my ancestry [which it is]. I am equally 'into' my Maternal Grandfather's I1 and my Mtdna U5a1. We are the product of many ancestral lines after all.

    As to why C and D pan out the way they do, I haven't really an answer. I think Aiden suggested back-migration. If so, when? What a puzzle this is.

    By the way, I can't access the Ancestry.com group and have lost Aiden's home email. If you are in touch, please ask him to contact me.

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