Subclades of R1b in Wales

Brennus

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Could anyone tell me what are the subclades of R1b1b2 in the welsh population? Any help would be very much appreciated!

Brennus
 
"Vae Victis!"

Great name.
There are many that can help you with the DNA questions here. I just could not resist commenting.
 
It's almost all R1b-L21+, with a few occasional U152 or M167.
 
Maciamo, a question there: when do you think did L21 arrive in Britain?

With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.
 
With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.

So, basically with the Beaker-Bell Culture (which arrived in Britain circa 2000 BC)?
 
Although the original post was made by Brennus on 4-25-10, and because there is a more current posted today by Taranis, here is a link per Family Tree DNA that might be useful to all R1b's etc.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx

If this url does not come up: Yahoo search ftdna welsh R1b1b2 haplogroup project and go to: Family Tree SNA r1b1b2 asteric.

There is a "pie" with percentages for Wales, and other countries ( including Turkery and Syria.

Melusine
 
Although the original post was made by Brennus on 4-25-10, and because there is a more current posted today by Taranis, here is a link per Family Tree DNA that might be useful to all R1b's etc.

Actually, 4-25-10 is Brennus' joining date. He started the thread only yesterday.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx

If this url does not come up: Yahoo search ftdna welsh R1b1b2 haplogroup project and go to: Family Tree SNA r1b1b2 asteric.

There is a "pie" with percentages for Wales, and other countries ( including Turkery and Syria.

Melusine

Heh, frankly, that website is hopelessly outdated in so far as it still claims that R1b originated in the Iberian Glacial Refuge, whereas we know it must be decisively younger.
 
With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.

Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus
 
Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus

Hard to say. The problem is that R1b-L21 and it's sister clades (or brother clades, we're talking about Y-DNA here?! :grin: ) all have approximately the same age. So, as far as I currently understand it, the arrival of R1b(-P312?) coincides approximately with the arrival of the Beaker-Bell Culture in Western Europe. What in my opinion may have arrived in Britain with the iron age is R1b-U152.
 
Taranis,

Why not post your updated information on R1b+. and supply us all with any new information references and sources.?

Melusine
 
Well, primarily there is this paper by Myres et al. which visualized that R1b cannot have originated on the Iberian Penninsula. However, if you search, you'll find that this paper has been discussed in more than one thread on this forum.

Secondly, indirectly relevant is this thread, and the paper that is discussed in it, specifically about the absence of R1b in the Neolithic.

Third, it should be mentioned that the oldest 'ancient' find of R1b thus far is from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the (Proto-Celtic?) Urnfield Culture.
 
Well, primarily there is t by Myres et al.
Third, it should be mentioned that the oldest 'ancient' find of R1b thus far is from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the (Proto-Celtic?) Urnfield Culture.

So it's possible that R1b entered britian during the late Bronze age.
Has anyone completed a Y-DNA test on Beaker remains in the Uk,e.g the Amesbury archer?
Brennus
 
So it's possible that R1b entered britian during the late Bronze age.
Has anyone completed a Y-DNA test on Beaker remains in the Uk,e.g the Amesbury archer?
Brennus

Well, unfortunately, to my knowledge there's been no paper on Beaker Y-DNA yet. It would be good to have Beaker samples in general to clarify things.
 
Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus

It's possible, of course, as L21 is also well established on the continent, but I doubt it had a significant effect on the population structure.

The late Bronze/early Iron Age would correspond to the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures in Central Europe. There is archaeological evidence that these cultures influenced Britain, and there is undeniable evidence that La Tène-related tribes, such as the Atrebates or Parisii migrated to England and probably Ireland too (the Menapii). I think they and the later Roman invaders are responsible for the presence of R1b-S28 (a.k.a. U152) in the British Isles. The highest percentage of S28/U152 in the UK is around Kent, Sussex, Hampshire and Wiltshire, where the Atrebates (a Belgic tribe) settled, and where Romans had a fairly strong presence too in terms of villa (i.e. country estates built for the upper class) as opposed to purely military settlements. Haplogroup J2, which peaks in Central Italy in Western Europe, also happens to be strongest along the southern coast of England (except Cornwall, Devon and Dorset).
 
So, basically with the Beaker-Bell Culture (which arrived in Britain circa 2000 BC)?

The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).
 
The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).

Agreed and well said. There is not even a true consensus on which way the Bell Beakers moved. Some have them West to east and some the opposite.
Although most of the regions settled by them were also later also settled by those who were clearly IE, there indeed were areas in which Bell Beakers settled that did not see any clearly defined IE settlements later.
 
The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).

Wasn't there continuity from the Unetice culture to the Urnfield culture?
 

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