Languages, haplogroups, and tribes

List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)

vlasi-hair

mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)

Two words I can match with Dutch and German.

Vlasi-hair Vlas (Dutch) Flachs (German) ---> English Flax
A plant that is used to make threads to weave linen fabric.
In old Dutch it was said that people with blond hair had "Flax hair".

It may be interesting to study the use of flax or wool by different tribes.
Wool seems to be a more Celtic material.

mač May have something in common with Mes (Dutch) Messer (German)
English Knife.
 
I've decided to pick something which may be a tad more representative, and at the same time it shows up some problems. For one, I selected only three words comparison, namely iron, silver and gold. For the sake of making the map not too crammed, I dumped all the Romance languages in favour of just Latin. For the sake of completeness, here's the summary of the Romance languages:

Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian
Ferro - Hierro - Ferro - Fer - Ferro - Fier
Prata - Plata - Plata - Argent - Argento - Argint
Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur

Otherwise, here's the languages I used (note that the list both includes extant and extinct):

Celtic languages:
- Irish
- Welsh
- Breton
- Gaulish (note that the word for gold is, to my knowledge, unattested, it can however be reconstructed with reasonable safety as "Auron").

Germanic languages:
- English
- Dutch
- German
- Danish
- Norwegian
- Swedish
- Gothic

Slavic languages:
- Czech
- Polish
- Croatian
- Bulgarian
- Russian
- Ukrainian

Other IE languages:
- Latvian
- Lithuanian
- Latin
- Albanian
- Greek
- Hittite (note that Hittite had no word for iron)

Non-IE languages:
- Basque
- Finnish

What is very interesting here is this:

- in regard for gold and silver, Germanic uses the same root word as Baltic and Slavic (in common Balto-Slavic, G was rendered Z, hence "Zelta" vs. "Gold"). The Finnish word for "gold" apparently seems also be a cognate with Germanic.

- The Germanic words for iron are derived from Celtic "Isarnos" (in fact, I was amazed how similar Gothic "Isarn" is to Gaulish "Isarnos"!), which makes perfect sense since the Germanic people adopted iron working from the Celtic Hallstatt Culture.

- Celtic, Latin, Greek and Albanian use the same root word for silver. It must be added that Albanian may have borrowed the word from Latin.

- Basque, Celtic, Latin and Albanian apparently use the same root word for gold.

- What is very interesting is the Basque word for "iron" (Burdina), which raises the question, where did they get their iron from?

- What is very unfortunate is that I couldn't find Etruscan or Dacian words for any of the three.

EDIT: I should add that technically, this does not belong into genetics but linguistics...
 
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Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.
 
Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.

Thanks. And yes, I can definitely do that, but I probably won't do so tonight... :sleepy:
 
I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:

- the Celtiberian word for silver is attested as "arkanta".

- the Thracian word for gold is attested as "saldas" (compare Baltic/Slavic).
 
It is interesting int Italian "copper" is RAME, and in Albanian REM. What do you think?

And in Arabian language iron is called HADID, does it has any link to Hetits??
 
Why not add the words for stone?

In English.. "Flintstone"
In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp.
In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm

Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone.
(Vuursteen)

Flintstone was used together with iron objects to make fire.
Very long after the use of flintstone weapons.
 
Why not add the words for stone?

In English.. "Flintstone"
In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp.
In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm

Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone.
(Vuursteen)

Flintstone was used together with iron objects to make fire.
Very long after the use of flintstone weapons.

(by the way, I'm sorry it's not finished yet)

I'm not sure how useful "stone" would be. The iron-silver-gold comparison gave a rather coherent pattern, but from what I have thus far same cannot be quite said in resport for copper-tin-bronze. What also seems apparent to me is that the word "bronze" is actually a relatively new one, and that many ancient cultures apparently used "copper" and "bronze" rather interchangably.
 
I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:
- the Celtiberian word for silver is attested as "arkanta".
- the Thracian word for gold is attested as "saldas" (compare Baltic/Slavic).

Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian
Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur
Celtiberian arkanta
Albanian ar
Basque urre
Hungarian arany
Welsh aur
Irish or

Thracian saldas
Latvian zelta
Slovenian zlata
Serbian/Croatian/Macedonian/Czech/Slovak/Bulgarian zlato
Russian zoloto
Belorissian zolata
Polish zloto

Norwegian gull
Finish kulta
Estonian kuld
Danish/Swedish guld
English/german gold
Dutch goud


Lithuanian auksas

Armenian voski

Greek chrysós
 
Err... Celtiberian "Arkanta" means silver, not gold.
 
Err... Celtiberian "Arkanta" means silver, not gold.
latin argentum
CeltoIberian arkanta
Albanian argjend
Irish airgid
Romanian argint
French d'argent
Italian argento

Croatian/Serbian/Macedonian/Bulgarian Srebro
Belorussian srebra
Russian serebra
Polish srebrny
Slovenian srebrna
Czech stříbrná
Slovak strieborná

Lithuanian sidabras
Latvian sudraba

Estonian hõbe
Finish hopea

Dutch zilver
Swedish/English silver
German Silber
Norwegian/Danish sølv

Basque zilarrezko

Welsh arian

Spanish plata
Portuguese prata
 
I have updated the iron-silver-gold map to include the Romance languages, as well as Thracian.

In the attachment, there is the (promised) list for the words copper, tin and bronze.

Languages I used are:

Celtic languages:
- Irish
- Welsh
- Breton
- Gaulish (note that the word "Cassos" may have been used interchangably for tin and bronze, also the word for copper is reconstructed)

Romance/Italic languages:
- Portuguese
- Asturian (I would normally not have included, but see below)
- Spanish
- Catalonian
- French
- Latin (inside the mini bracket)
- Italian
- Romanian

Germanic languages:
- English
- Dutch
- German
- Danish
- Norwegian
- Swedish
- Gothic (note that the words for tin and bronze are unattested)

Slavic languages:
- Czech
- Polish
- Croat
- Bulgarian
- Russian
- Ukrainian

Other IE:
- Albanian
- Greek
- Latvian
- Lithuanian
- (unfortunately, all these words appear unattested in Hittite)

Non-IE:
- Basque
- Finnish

Generally said, in Antiquity the usage of "copper" and "bronze" (or even "bronze" and "tin") was not well-defined, and, as far as I can tell, the usage of the word "bronze" for a specific alloy is relatively new.

- There's an unexpected amount of variety for "bronze" in the Celtic languages.

- Gothic "Aiz" (copper) appears to be a cognate with Latin "Aes" (bronze, but also "ore").

- The reason I included Asturian in this list is because it's word for copper is obviously a cognate with Breton word for bronze. This suggests that the Asturian word may be a borrowing from Celtiberian.

- Against the previous homogenity of the Slavic languages, there's a variety within the Slavic family in regard for the word for "tin": West Slavic (like Czech and Slovak) use cognates with Germanic (which may be the result of Germanic substrate), East Slavic use a cognate with Baltic, and Bulgarian uses a cognate with Albanian.
 

Attachments

  • CopperTinBronze.jpg
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taranis in ancient Greek bronze was also Κουπρος Cyprus cumbri
as Kupros
chalkos is the other name

copper as mineral and early metallurgy is Cyprus, Kupros in Greek not chalkos
chalkos is when mix with other to became stronger krateros
tin is kassiteros
tin with copper is krateroma or Ορειχαλκος oreichalkos
bronze is also in Greek language as Bruntzos but it is not Greek

exceptance if comes from Cubri-seo and became bronzo

the pelasgic word is Κουπρος kupros Kypros similar Cyprus (the bigest copper area of Europe) Cimbri Kopra etc

so plz enter Kypros beside chalkos ty

kalai kalaj in balkans is not correct comes Turkish kalay although in use today
it is in use also in greek as kalai but it is not European but Turkish word

Baker also is Turkish name for copper

just for the reccord
 
taranis in ancient Greek bronze was also Κουπρος Cyprus cumbri
as Kupros
chalkos is the other name

Ah yes, thanks for pointing that out. I sort of knew that this was going to be a problem since I took modern Greek, which after all has a fair bit of considerable differences to classical Greek.
 
- Against the previous homogenity of the Slavic languages, there's a variety within the Slavic family in regard for the word for "tin": West Slavic (like Czech and Slovak) use cognates with Germanic (which may be the result of Germanic substrate), East Slavic use a cognate with Baltic, and Bulgarian uses a cognate with Albanian.

Serbian
copper - bakar
tin - lim / kalaj
bronze - bronza
lead - olovo


bakar we find only among ex-Yugoslavia people, Albanians,Greek (δεκάρα), and turkish (bakır)...
so it can be old Balkan and Asia minor word for copper...
 
Serbian also uses cognates with Bulgarian and Albanian
bakar
kalaj
bronza
bakar is interesting as we find it only among ex-Yugoslavia people and Albanians..word might be Illyrian in origin

I agree about that assessment regarding bakar/bakra/baker, it might indeed be a borrowing from Illyrian.

No problem
and your work is remarkable

Thanks.
 
I thought that, but than I found out via google translate that word also exist in Greek and Turkish as well... btw. in mean time I saw that word also exist in Bulgarian

so it covers much wider area than Illyrians...

with tin / kalaj is similar...

btw. Serbia and Croatia have word 'lim' for tin, which seems unique... (word "lim" is much more used in Serbia than "kalaj"..."kalaj" I know mostly from some funny phrase "Sunce ti kalajisano" that is literary saying someone that his Sun is tinned...and is used as a way to express being angry with that someone because something that person did or said...e.g. if someone who you feel friendliness for tricks you... I guess tinned Sun has a meaning that his friendship was fake Sun and not real one...)
google translate for Serbo-Croatian "lim" gives "tin" in Slovenia and "kalaj" in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Turkey..

EDIT:
chemical element is called Kalaj in Serbia..I have just checked that...
it's just not so common word in everyday language...
"lim" is same as Blech in German
 
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I thought that, but than I found out via google translate that word also exist in Greek and Turkish as well... btw. in mean time I saw that word also exist in Bulgarian

so it covers much wider area than Illyrians...

with tin / kalaj is similar...

btw. Serbia and Croatia have word 'lim' for tin, which seems unique... (word "lim" is much more used than "kalaj"..."kalaj" I know mostly from some funny phrase "Sunce ti kalajisano" that is literary saying someone that his Sun is tinned...and is used as a way to express being angry with that someone because something that person did or said...e.g. if someone tricks you...)
google translate for Serbo-Croatian "lim" gives "tin" in Slovenia and "kalaj" in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Turkey..

Actually, with that hint that it's also found in Turkish, I went looking further and found the most probable origin: "Kalaj"/"Kalai" must be borrowings in Macedonian, Bulgarian and Albanian that more probably stem from the Ottoman period, hence the word is originally of Turkish origin. Specifically, there's also cognates readily found in Kazakh (Kalai) and Uzbek (Qalay).
 
"lead"

Serbia, Croatia and Bulgaria - olovo (same word is used for tin in Russia and Ukraine and similar in Belorussia, Lithuania, Latvia)

Czech - vedení / olovo
Slovak - vedenie /olovo
Macedonia - vodi
Polish - prowadzić /olow
Russia - privesti /svinec
Belarus - pryviesci
Ukraine - pryvesty /svinec

Slovenian - svinca
Lithuanian - švino
Latvian - svina

Estonian - kaasa

Dutch - leiden
english - lead
irish - luaidhe
Korean - lideu


German - führen
Basque - beruna

Turkish - kurşun
Azerbaijani - qurğuşun

Danish/Swedes - bly

Albanian - plumbi
Catalan - plom
Spanish - plomo
Italian - piombo

French - entraîner

latin - ducere

Finish - johtaa

Welsh - arweiniol

Armenian - tanel (reminds on west european tin)
 

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