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Thread: Languages, haplogroups, and tribes

  1. #1
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    Languages, haplogroups, and tribes



    Idea is to take a meaning and compare related words in different languages of today and see whether the word correlates with spread of some haplogroup or tribal group....

    emphasis should be on words that must have been important in ancient past...

    e.g. tower

    haplogroup E

    kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
    kullë/ kala - Albanian
    kule/kale - Turkish
    kula - also exist in Serbian & Croatian but is more archaic middle age related...

    haplogroup I
    toranj - Serbian & Croatian
    torn - Swedish
    tårn - Norwegian
    turn - Icelandic
    torni - Finish
    tårn - Danish
    toren - Dutch
    turn - Romanian
    torn - Estonian
    tornis - Latvian

    festung / turm - German
    fastingstorn - Swedish


    haplogroup R1b
    twr - Welsh
    tower - English

    torre - Spanish / Catalan /Portuguese / Italian
    tour - French
    túr - Irish
    dorrea - Basque


    dar/tar = encampment, camp - Berberic languages (according to http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...10&postcount=9)

    haplogroup R1a

    věž - Czech
    veža - Slovak
    vieža - Belorusian
    wieża / baszta - Polish
    vezha /bashta - Ukrainian
    bashnya - Russian


    local words

    bokštas - Lihuanian

    stolp - Slovenian

    pýrgos - Greek

    koshki - Georgian

    Mīnāra - Hindi

    ashtarak - Armenian

  2. #2
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    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    How yes now

    The Greek Pyrgos is the Light House that is quarded and fortified,
    the Greek Tower as Fortification is -Issa or -Ida or -Intha
    to explain it better
    Pyrgos is a fortication that holds Fire light,
    If light is on Then is OK if light is Off then something goes wrong,
    the fortification that has defending Walls and towers is -Issa -Ida - Intha - iza
    (Edessa - Larissa - Tyrintha)
    also a quarding tower to watch area is Phylakai
    the quarding tower to support defence is Kelli- Celli
    to understand it the approach is
    the main defence is acropolis, the -issa etc
    The peripheral defence is The wall suported by (De)Celleia (tenth tower)
    the pre-defence is Phylakai that Alarms area,
    The Pyrgos is the Tower that Alarms by setting or hide Fire signals,
    also Pyrgos is the last defence point, If fire of Pyrgos is out then battle is lost,
    The fire of Pyrgos is like today Flag.
    The Greek word is also Celli as you down

    The tower that holds Fire has 2 names
    1 is Phanos-Pharos the lighting house
    2 is Pyrgos the qurded lighting house that connects with city defense

    It is remarkable that the word Τσαλλι Calli is in Pontian Greek language as also in Ionic
    we know that Ionic named the strong fortifications Calli, probably from -essa
    Calli is probably ancient Thracian or Persian word, cause it was used By Mithridates
    as also the Ionic cities Calli-polis(fortifiedcity) - Calla-Vria (Callabressa= fortified castle), although many Greek linguists connect it with PIE Kallos = beauty
    as an example lets see city Trebizond- Trapezus
    Trape is the Geometrical
    Zus from soessa - Trapessoessa-> Trapezus
    but the monasteries before that name was given to them was Cellia (κελλια)
    the word Celli exists in Modern Greek as Κελλι
    watch the word Κελλυφος -> the fortified armor of an animal like turtles bone

    the possibility that Celli-Kulla comes from the Same word is obvious,

    Probably the words
    Kulla
    Kale
    Kule
    Celli

    comes from far ancient Pelasgian or Lelegian or Persian and split to Thracian satem and Thyrrenian centum
    or from PIE language
    the Latin has similar the Cell or shell

    greek kelli in latin is cell
    Greek kelyfos in Latin is shell

    Pyrgos comes from Pyr and Cell
    Pyr + celli in hand is Pyrsos = torch
    Pyr+ Calli as tower is Pyrgos
    That is why the Lighting House is Pharos, cause it was not fortified
    (not Calli)

    Now in Wich Haplogroup Calli belong as Language, it is for you to Decide
    But I believe Belongs to Thyrrenian Family language
    ,
    Means either J2 either E either I2a
    And Turkish are not major E Haplogroup

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - Dinaric
    Country: Montenegro



    kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
    kullë/ kala - Albanian
    kule/kale - Turkish
    kula - also exist in Serbian & Croatian but is more archaic middle age related...
    Albvanian, Serbian, Greek, Byulgarian, and other Balkan languages have a lot of Turk borrowings, so KULLA is a turk word.

    Then Kulla has not any link to Haplogroup E.

    Even, you must divide, nations, which came here during 7-th century, South Slavis peoples, they did'nt live here in the time when Haplogroup E evolved.

    Two languages which existed here in ancient times are Greek and Albanian, which are still live languages.

    As for Pyrgos, it is pelasgian word. In albanian Burg means "prison" (I am not sure, in serbian it is "Zatvor"), and it is because the prisons in Albanian "Kulla" was in the groundfloor. Even it is related to German Burg (Hamburg, Luxemburg) which means city, and city is again related to Kulla, which is nothing else than a small castle.

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    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Neander still wrong

    You haven't even read what I write

    Kulla calli Kalle is pelasgic not turkish

    as turkish YΟΚ is pelasgic OYΚ

    cause if Kulla is Turkish then CallaBresse were turks

    Even if Pyrgos is IE GErman Burg Albanian Burg,

    Then Callabressa Calltaza Callipolis does not mean Fortified
    the kelli in Modern Greek comes from ancient Thyrrenian and is similar to Latin cell
    witch in Satem LAnguages becomes Kell and Calli - Kalle

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    iapetoc, I accept your suggestion and correct mapping to haplogroups of words with meaning 'tower' in following way:


    haplogroups E & J & (I2a?)

    Calli/ Kelli / Celli /Celleia Greek
    kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
    kullë/ kala - Albanian
    kule/kale - Turkish
    kula - in Serbian & Croatian it is related to tower of middle age fortress, thus military term...


    haplogroup I
    toranj - Serbian & Croatian -word is used for modern towers and civil ones...
    torn - Swedish
    tårn - Norwegian
    turn - Icelandic
    torni - Finish
    tårn - Danish
    toren - Dutch
    turn - Romanian
    torn - Estonian
    tornis - Latvian

    festung / turm - German
    fastingstorn - Swedish


    haplogroup R1b
    twr - Welsh
    tower - English

    torre - Spanish / Catalan /Portuguese / Italian
    tour - French
    túr - Irish
    dorrea - Basque


    dar/tar = encampment, camp - Berberic languages (according to http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...10&postcount=9)

    haplogroup R1a

    věž - Czech
    veža - Slovak
    vieža - Belorusian
    wieża / baszta - Polish
    vezha /bashta - Ukrainian
    bashnya - Russian


    local words

    bokštas - Lihuanian

    stolp - Slovenian (btw. this is word alike to word for pillar in other Slavic languages)

    koshki - Georgian

    Mīnāra - Hindi

    ashtarak - Armenian

  6. #6
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    key thing is to choose words used by man as this is about YDNA
    so military terms are the best...

    next word - fortress

    R1b old
    gotorleku - Basque

    haplogroup R1b
    fortress - English
    forteresse - French
    fortetsya - Ukrainian (? not much R1b there)
    fortalesa - Catalan
    fortaleza - Spanish/Portuguese
    fortezza - Italian
    fortăreaţă - Romanian
    fort - Dutch/Swedish

    haplogroup I
    vesting - Dutch
    fästning - Swedish
    Festung - German
    fæstning - Danish
    festning - Norwegian

    ?
    froúrio - Greek
    virkið - Icelandic
    var - Hungarian (2nd term, 1st is erőd)

    kindlus - Estonian

    castellum - Latin

    cietoksnis - Latvian

    R1a
    krepasć - Belorussian
    krepostʹ - Russian
    krepost - Bulgarian

    haplogroup E/J
    kale - Turkish
    kala - Albanian

    ?
    pevnosť - Slovak
    pevnost - Czech


    I2a2
    tvrdina - Macedonian (possible coin of "tvrd" (hard/strong) + din (Celtic ending for settlement)
    tvrdjava -serbo-croatian ( possible coin of "tvrd" (hard/strong) + dava (dacian ending for settlement)
    trdnjava - Slovenian
    tvirtovė - Lithuanian (? no I2a2 there)

    ?
    gaer - Welsh

    erőd - Hungarian
    berd - Armenian (reminds of "berg" - hill in german and "breg"/"brdo" -hill in Slavic, I mention it because fortresses were on hills)

    ts’ikhe - Georgian

    linnoitus - Finish
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 19-02-11 at 23:01.

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    Interesting thread, good idea how yes no.

    Ukrainian Fortetsya and Polish Forteca is foreign, probably from Latin fortis - strong.
    The proper west Slavic word should be grod/grud, it means surrounded with walls.
    Probably Hungarian erod is related, look how much R1a is there. In Poland twierdza is used, similar to tvirtove (Lithuanian) probably roots from hard/twardy. We also use words Var and Zamek with similar meanings.

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    If you have time, I wouldn't mind if you look up also words like cow, horse, sword, axe, home, milk, honey, head, eye, head, father, brother. I think these are important once for indoeuropeans. And off course I missed a lot of important ones. :)

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    Le Brok thanks for adding Polish words for fortress...
    I somehow forgot to search for them....

    btw. you can also search for words...
    it is easy... go to google translate and switch languages... in no time you get words for all european languages....

    twierdza is same group with south Slavs and Lithuanian...I did put it in I2a2 but it is questionable as Lithuanians do not have much or any I2a2...

    grod and var might be R1a words as they are shared with Magyars who I believe were also R1a people...

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    I have an idea, maybe not a bad one. :)

    Let's group words in relation to known groups of people that Europe is build of. One group would be related to agriculturalists from south, other to herders/domesticated animals from east, yet another one to sea people. Other groupings of words could be body parts, geography/toponyms, and of course warrior vocabulary.
    The idea is that if you take one word then who knows how it evolved and could be misleading. For grouping of words we could get some statistical trend.

    For example for agriculturalists we should find words like field, seed, harvest, hoe, plow, wagon, wheat, water etc.
    For herders: cow, grass/meadow, milk, pig, horse etc.
    For warriors: sword, axe, horse, wagon, shield, battle, hero etc
    For sea people: ship, sea, wave, port, ore etc
    For toppings: river, mountain, forest, tree or names of trees.
    Settlements: village, fortess, road
    Body parts: main ones.
    Social events: wedding, burial
    Religious: name gods.
    ...I'm sure I missed something important. :)

    We are probably looking at 100 words or so, but if we keep it updating for many languages and for many months, maybe we could discover something interesting. I hope all community will chip in and make this project going and interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Interesting thread, good idea how yes no.

    Ukrainian Fortetsya and Polish Forteca is foreign, probably from Latin fortis - strong.
    Well... Let's see... I told you you're a clown.

    The examples that you give are not from Latin, not even probably.
    The three languages you mention have 1 common older language.

    The Romans didn't even use the word fortis in the names of their strongholds.
    More names like Castra Vetera, Mosa Trajectum and such.

    But there are Germanic tribes that used the word, like the Franks.. Frankfurt.

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    Here is an example how I envisioned it. Of course we will correct, extend and expand it. It would be nice to find old Greek, German, English, and old Slav words.

    I'm not sure how to display this table correctly in this window. I'm trying to paste and the table is loosing the structure. Everything is posted in one raw.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    While I must say that this idea is rather neat and interesting (though I doubt that a correlation with genetics is actually possible), the main problem is that it's not that a good idea to look at modern languages. It might be much more interesting to look at for instance Gothic than German (or perhaps both for the sake of completeness). Likewise, taking a look at Gaulish and Sanskrit would be useful. On the other hand, what I wanted to add, for instance there's actually a cognate for "Knife" in German, namely "Knippchen" (or "Kneipchen", depending on the dialect), which is a colloqial word for knife.

    Another aspect is that you might want to consider is that meanings of words may change, but cognates nontheless still exist, albeit with a shifted meaning. For instance, the Gaulish word for horse is "Epos", but the cognates in modern Welsh ("Ebol") and Breton ("Ebeul") actually mean 'foal'.

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    Exactly, the long shot would be to find the oldest words in main language groups. My table is just a rough example and starting point. It's a long shot and probably nothing useful will turn out, but it could be fun if many members here take part.
    I'm not sure what form and what program to use to make these tables interactive and accessible for all in easy way?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Serbian and general South Slavic word for mountain-planina.
    Etimology- root *pel-. as words plonina in polish and polonina in ukraine meaning something what is full ( not empty).
    The same root as nordic Fjell in the same meaning-mountain.


    In other slavic languages word for mountain is Gora or Hora.

    Though all this etimology could be from Indoeuropeans.
    Probably all this words have same root: full, blue, field, plenty and serbian puno(polno), plavo, polje with the same meaning as in English.

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    One more interesting etimology is that of Slavic word for fish- riba.
    It is found only in slavic languages and probably isn't indoeuropean.
    There is explanation that it is connected with german word for caterpillar- Raupe.
    If the paleolithic Europeans had word for fish, could it be something close to -riba.
    Bask word for fish is arrain. The most interesting thing is that Sardinian word for caterpillar is- ruga. It is well known fact that sardinian is most conservative romance language with so called pre latin sardinian substratum. It is also well known fact that Sardinia is predominantly I2a1.
    Just to mention that probable root for slavic riba is ri(a,e,o,u)+ba, like žaba(frog) ža+ ba.

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    *Basque ozpil "fresh place »/ Sardinian (Nuoro region) ozpil « fresh place »
    *Sardinian (Nuoro region) gorru "red"/ basque gorri « red »
    *Corsican zerru “pork”/ Basque zerri “pork”

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    *Basque ibar « river mouth, valley » :
    ==>Spain : Ebro river, Iberian people
    ==>Germany: more than 80 villages names with the prefix “eber”


    *Basque (h)aran “valley”:
    ==>England: Arundel
    ==>Norway: Arendal
    ==> Germany: Villages with the prefix “Arn”


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    *Basque : behi « cow » and behor « mare » from*beh- « female animal »/ bourouchaski behé «female animal»
    *Basque: hagin « teeth » / hunzib (north east Caucasus) hagin « teeth»
    *Basque : bizar « beard » / dravidian : isal « moustache »
    *Basque: ile « hair » / dravidian ile « hair »
    *the word wine is all over in europe derived from *wain (greek woinos, latin. vinum, breton gwin…)which is close to the proto-semitic form. Basque has completely different word ardan- « wine, grape vine » which is close to Davidian (ardn "berry").
    *Dravidian guti,kuti "small" / Basque guti "few, small".
    *Basque eme « female » and ar « male » / Mongol eme « female » / ar « male »
    *the Dragon in the Basque mythology is called “Herensuge” with “suge” meaning snake=> the dragon “Erenkyl” in the Yakut Mythology with “Kyl” meaning snake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Another aspect is that you might want to consider is that meanings of words may change, but cognates nontheless still exist, albeit with a shifted meaning. For instance, the Gaulish word for horse is "Epos", but the cognates in modern Welsh ("Ebol") and Breton ("Ebeul") actually mean 'foal'.

    Fair enough. A sort of reverse example is 'equus' for horse being dropped for most puposes and 'caval'(from caballus), which means 'nag' or a less than perfect specimen (of horse), finding its way into the vernacular for referring to a horse in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    [FONT=Arial]*Basque ibar « river mouth, valley » :
    ==>Spain : Ebro river, Iberian people
    ==>Germany: more than 80 villages names with the prefix “eber
    I don't think that "Eber" is a cognate with Basque "Ibar", because it's the German word for "boar".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Fair enough. A sort of reverse example is 'equus' for horse being dropped for most puposes and 'caval'(from caballus), which means 'nag' or a less than perfect specimen (of horse), finding its way into the vernacular for referring to a horse in general.
    I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.

    Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
    cabal-koval (black smith)
    quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)

    All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.

    Where does the english horse come from then?

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    Taranis posted it in other thread:
    For example, there's cognates for Latin "mela" and Greek "melo" in the Celtic languages: Gaulish "meliđđus", Irish "milis" and Welsh "melys", all which have the meaning "sweet".
    This might be pre-indoeuropean, same like honey which in old english was mead, polish - miod, and similar for many languages. Sorry, don't have time now to check others.

    Intriguing are the simple tastes:
    English Polish
    sweet słotki (ł = w)
    solt sol

    This all might be pre-indoearopean, and related more with I haplo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.

    Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
    cabal-koval (black smith)
    quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)

    All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.

    Where does the english horse come from then?
    It should be added that the Celtic languages have a cognate for Latin "Caballus": in Gaulish "Caballos" and in modern Welsh "Ceffyl" (Conversely, Latin "Equus" is obviously a cognate with Gaulish "Epos").

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    This isn't getting anywhere.

    English is a rather young language, and has many words from other languages.
    Another point is the English speaking people lack a lot of knowledge of other languages.

    So that's the reason for a lot of gobbledegook.

    Just take the primitive words. Those who existed first.

    A primitive house was built by weaving twigs between wooden poles.

    In Dutch.. Weven.. In English weaving.

    But also in Dutch: Wenden .. Means to move in a different direction.
    It has a word as: "Wand" as a product. A wooden wall..
    In German that is also the case.. "Die Wand" and also the word for woven cloth.. "Gewand"

    In Dutch a stone brick wall is a "muur" and that is from Latin.

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