Illyria

Yes E-V13 were illyrianized from R1b conquerors.


Wouldn't Illyrian R1b genes then become the dominant one until the arrival of the Slavs? I mean I know there is a theory about Illyrianization but that happend before their arravial in the west Balkan. But after 1300 years the R1b gene would be probably much higher then the E-V13.

And logically the real Illyrian (as you claim R1b) should be then the second highest genetic within Bosnians. Which is not.
 
No, not the one you must be thinking on.

Am not sure if I did understood you. What do you mean "Illyrians genes survived under the form of E-V13" ? Do you mean that the Illyrian genes are E-v13?

E1b is associated with the thracians in the balkans,
illyrians are R1b and also G2a in the north and they moved south later
I2a1 as per my theory was from ukraine area, was bought to the balkans by the cimmerians around 650BC. after the cimmerians where attacked by the scythians around 700BC.

Thracians and illyrian are geographical terms for many different tribes , many cultures, many kings, many ethnics

"illyrian" R1b
Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest
frequency distribution of
R1b-M173
(Kivisild et
al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%), decreasing in that of
Autariates (27.27%) and
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

"illyrian"
Haplogrupa E

(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%) and
Delmatae (4.66%). In the area of
Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

veneti = northeast italy
liburni = croatian and istrian
noricum = western austria and pannonia ( hungary )
delmatae = dalmatia
dardanian = kossovo
taulanti = montengro and north albania
japodes = croatia and bosnia
autariates = serbia and herzenogiva
histri - istrians and western slovenia

 
Last edited:
E1b is associated with the thracians in the balkans,
illyrians are R1b and also G2a in the north and they moved south later
I2a1 as per my theory was from ukraine area, was bought to the balkans by the cimmerians around 650BC. after the cimmerians where attacked by the scythians around 700BC.

Thracians and illyrian are geographical terms for many different tribes , many cultures, many kings, many ethnics

"illyrian" R1b
Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest
frequency distribution of
R1b-M173
(Kivisild et
al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti
(62%), decreasing in that of
Autariates
(27.27%) and
Japodes
(26.67%),
Noricum
(21%),
Histri
(18.18%),
Taulantii
(17.60%),
Liburni
(16.40%),
Dardanians
(14.55%) and
Delmatae
(7.06%).

"illyrian"
Haplogrupa E

(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians
(36.80%),
Taulantii
(27%),
Japodes
(13.33%),
Veneti
(10.40%),
Histri
(9.09%),
Autariates
(8.50%) and
Delmatae
(4.66%). In the area of
Noricum
this haplogroup is absent.

veneti = northeast italy
noricum = western austria and pannonia ( hungary )
delmatae = dalmatia
dardanian = kossovo
taulanti = montengro and north albania
japodes = croatia and bosnia
autariates = serbia and herzenogiva
histri - istrians and western slovenia



So you think that the I2a1b is a pre-Slavic haplogroup in Balkan?
 
So you think that the I2a1b is a pre-Slavic haplogroup in Balkan?

that's what was confirmed by kenN, its from the steppes

and its not pre-slavic, it arrived before the slavs got to the balkans. If Herodotus is correct and the cimmerians are related to the thracians, then its a northern Thracian marker.
 
that's what was confirmed by kenN, its from the steppes

and its not pre-slavic, it arrived before the slavs got to the balkans. If Herodotus is correct and the cimmerians are related to the thracians, then its a northern Thracian marker.


When I say pre-Slavic I mean that they settled in the [Balkan] before Slavs. But okay. I don't agree with you totally but am willing to hear yours, and of course others theories. And I say theories because non of us can really say that it's either this way or that way.

I just read that according to a Russian biochemist, Anatole Klyosov that according to him the I2 where almost completly exterminated in Europe by 4500 BC and the survivorus fled to England and Ireland then later around 2300 they resettled in eastern Europe.

Can you show me source where you found those genetics studies about the Illyrian tribes?


 
The Illyrian Elite in South Albania was: western-R1b, I1, I2a2b, I2b.

The Illyrianized native population was: eastern-R1b, E-v13, E-M123, G2a, J2b, J1, J2a.

And probably both had different subclades of some R1a. Although I strongly suspect that most non-slavic R1a in the Greece/Albania/Macedonia region is actually the Greek Elite that hellenized the rest of the natives.

The mix happened sometime in the Bronze Age. The Illyrian elite was celtic genetically, but not so much culturally in its early years, which means that it came in the Balkans before the formation of the Celtic culture in Central Europe.
 
The Illyrian Elite in South Albania was: western-R1b, I1, I2a2b, I2b.

The Illyrianized native population was: eastern-R1b, E-v13, E-M123, G2a, J2b, J1, J2a.

And probably both had different subclades of some R1a.

The mix happened sometime in the Bronze Age. The Illyrian elite was celtic genetically, but not so much culturally in its early years, which means that it came in the Balkans before the formation of the Celtic culture in Central Europe.


What makes you think that the Illyrians were genetically celtic (R1b) ?
 
What makes you think that the Illyrians were genetically celtic (R1b) ?

They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.
 
I just want to say modern Yugoslaviens decend from Illyrians or anyone in Illyrian areas.

Map of Y DNA I2a1 formally known as i2a the eastern european I2a1 is I2a1b except for some in Britan and Ireland.

Haplogroup_I-borders.gif


map of Illyria
colonies.jpg


Also the areas of eastern Italy where some Illyrians settled has higher amounts of I2a1 than the rest of Italy. I2a1b spread out of southern Europe about 20,000ybp it has been in eastern Europe for over 15,000 years. It does not come from any recent migrations there is no doubt Yugoslavians and eastern Europeans have keep very ancient paternal lines. But Yugoslavians also have significant amounts of mid eastern blood which came recently but not extremely significant.

Balto Slavic aka cordoded ware culture invasions of central and northern eastern Europe killed off many of the I2a1b paternal lines. I subtracted all Y DNA in eastern Europe that came in the last 10,000 years (almost all was Indo European Balto Slavic R1a1a1b) and I2a1b was over 70% even in poland and Russia. modern Polish and Russians also probably trace most of their ancestry to the I2a1b people maybe even more than Yugoslavians.

Also even though traditionally people have thought Italians and Greeks are related they are not. Greeks are a mixture of eastern European and mid eastern Greeks are defintley mainly east euro but have higher amounts of mid eastern than any Europeans. Italians are a mixture of first paleolithic (over 10,000ybp) western Mediterranean European I2a1a and Neolithic (10,000-6,000ybp) G2a people who did not come from Europe but would have been mainly European by the time they arrived in Italy. modern sardine are 100% from this mix and have been almost completley genetically isolated on the sardine island or over 5,000years.

Then Italiens also have a significant amount of Italo Celtic R1b S28 alps blood which came to Italy 3,000ybp. Then finally they have a significant amount of mid eastern blood like Greeks and at about the same rate the European side of Greeks and Italians is unrelated well i guess maybe 20,000ybp it was related. This is all my opinion off DNA.
 
They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.


Okay. But am not sure if I got you right. Did you mean the hapolgroup I2a1b is Illyrian when you said I2a2b or did you mean that the I2a2b is a seperate one?
 
This is going to be intressting. So according to you what genetics did the Illyrians belong to?
Take a look at genetics of Northern Albanians. They desend from Illyrians with little Slavic mixture.
 
They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.
You hold the wrong views about genetics of Illyrians. The bosses of Illyria always were the E-V13 people. R1b people were slaves working for E-V13+J2 people. R1b never ruled Illyria.
 
Okay. But am not sure if I got you right. Did you mean the hapolgroup I2a1b is Illyrian when you said I2a2b or did you mean that the I2a2b is a seperate one?

I meant I2a2b, the La Tene hg. The 15% Albanian I2a is mostly I2a2b but the 2-3 published papers on this topic do a good job hiding this fact, they only say vaguely I2a. I2a1b-Dinaric probably came in the balkan in the middle ages.
 
I just want to say modern Yugoslaviens decend from Illyrians or anyone in Illyrian areas.

Map of Y DNA I2a1 formally known as i2a the eastern european I2a1 is I2a1b except for some in Britan and Ireland.

You're running into a fallacious argument right away here. Modern frequency distributions do not imply ancient frequency distribution. Modern diversity distributions are much stronger indicators (as long as you take pooling and total displacement possibilities into account).

Maciamo has a good discussion of this here.

I2a1b spread out of southern Europe about 20,000ybp it has been in eastern Europe for over 15,000 years.

That's a bit old for M423+, and doesn't match its highest diversity areas well. What's your evidence for it?

Balto Slavic aka cordoded ware culture invasions of central and northern eastern Europe killed off many of the I2a1b paternal lines. I subtracted all Y DNA in eastern Europe that came in the last 10,000 years (almost all was Indo European Balto Slavic R1a1a1b) and I2a1b was over 70% even in poland and Russia. modern Polish and Russians also probably trace most of their ancestry to the I2a1b people maybe even more than Yugoslavians.

All highly doubtful. Most of these people have a greater variety of R1a than I2a1b! Anyway, in performing that calculation, you're not successfully arguing that I2a1b is non-Slavic, you're just assuming it a priori and going with it.
 
I meant I2a2b, the La Tene hg. The 15% Albanian I2a is mostly I2a2b but the 2-3 published papers on this topic do a good job hiding this fact, they only say vaguely I2a. I2a1b-Dinaric probably came in the balkan in the middle ages.

This is actually really interesting. De Beule doesn't mention Albanians in his writings on eastern I2a2b. Are you getting this fact from DNA projects?
 
So.. what conclusions can we draw from that study? According to that presentation the tribes Autariatae and Delmatae are mostly of I1b genetic. Is it correct to say that the Bosnians and Dalmatians are the descedents of those tribes?

The presentation seems to assume that ancient tribes carried the exact same haplogroups in the exact same frequencies as modern people living in their areas. It's a very strange assumption. I wouldn't read too much into it.
 
This is actually really interesting. De Beule doesn't mention Albanians in his writings on eastern I2a2b. Are you getting this fact from DNA projects?

I was very surprised too when I discovered this. I get it from my own counts of y-dna of Albanians. They're exactly 15% I2a2b, like the published studies vaguely confirm by just saying I2a. Maybe one of them was I2a1-Dinaric. Linguistically this fits perfectly with the Albanian language, which is one of oldest IE branches all on its own, with a few experts having traced it to Central/North Europe. Maciamo too discovered traces of "German" dna in Albania/Greece/Macedonia area; first thought it was the Goths than realized it was way too much of it to be the Goths.
 

This thread has been viewed 298303 times.

Back
Top