Illyria
- Thread starter Elias2
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Bardhyl
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Yes sure your right, but considering that illyrians reigned from todays shkodra, and considering that more ancient tribes of illyrians were in todays albanian speaking regions (see wiki illyrian tribes) shouldn't there be more illyrians in todays albanian speaking regions, due to the fact that this region together with greece according to eupedia could resist best slavic invasion, and the fact that slavic population came from north, which surely rather would press illyrians south in the balkans rather than north from south, and the fact that albanians and greeks dont have a slavic language. So there could be only one possibility that illyrians cared with them i2a and e-v13 and probably also j2b. And that todays south slavs i2a is a mixture of ancient and medieval slavic tribes. Not according to me but accordingt to eupedia.
Bardhyl
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Ok one question you want to say that i2a of todays south slavs is illyrian i2a? Considering that slavs carried also the i2a in them?
adamo
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They didn't; they mixed with pre-indo-Europeans in the Balkans later. The original Bosnian refuge men where I2a, not R1a. Even E-V13 has more chances of being Bosnian refuge, which it probably isn't, because it is Neolithic. We all know of the Slavic migrations depicted to us; just I2a-M423 wasn't among them.
Bardhyl
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Now we are talking the same language thanks.
adamo
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I meant the men of R1a, read properly. Again, as I stated, the R1a men did not travel hand in hand with I2a men from the Ukrainian refuge; capish? The I2a men were already in the Balkans.
Bardhyl
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But c'mon its a fact that slavic invasion carried with them r1a and also i2a read on eupedia. So they mixed with i2a of the balkan illyrians. Its not my invention its a fact. Pls read i2 haplogroup on eupedia the full article pls.
No, Balkans I2a2 Dyn N and Dyn S are much younger than R1a. It is known fact.
You can see how old is I2a2 Dinaric at Ken Nordtvedt:
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf
Or you can read in Family Tree DNA:
"The Dinaric founder was probably in the Balkans or Danube basin. The age of I2a2-Dinaric was estimated at 3600 years, then adjusted to 2550 years,"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=results
Ok, we can debate, generally carriers of haplogroup I were long, very long in the Balkans, but I carriers moved, but scientific findings for I2a2-Dinaric are such.
Bardhyl
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After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.
Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations
Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was probably because of slavic otherwise they would have resisted and not speak a slavic language.
consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.
consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians in that region but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.
Reason:
1. slavic language
2. Slavic migration happend recently (considered historically) which is a strong argument for the high percentage.
3. it cannot be that illyrians cared with them only i2a, considering E-V13 in the balkans for a longer period of time approximately 6000 years b.c.
Info eupedia.
Illyrians, Thracians, Slavs, all were R1a and I2a carriers.
In South Illyria lived E-V13 carriers (of course and in another locations, but the inhabitants of Illyria mostly were R1a and I2a, there are debate that Illyria and Illyricum were geographic terms for Greeks and Romans).
R1a is probably the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans from existed, older than 10,000 years BC, for example you can read American scientists Regueiro et al:
High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia.
Which facts?
Do you read scientific papers in renowated scientific Journals or yellow press?
adamo
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No. The Illyrians, thracians, Dacians were ONlY I2a; separate from Slavs. The Slavic indo-European element arrived later. As for E-v13 and J2b they are more relevant to the ancient Greco-Albanian world; never having penetrated as north as Illyria in considerable frequency. Northern Albania though, WAS within the Illyrian sphere of influence, as Slovenia was to the north. We can imagine offshoots of Illyrians would also have went to Romania, parts of Greece or Hungary as well for example; they spread around regions such as Moldova or Ukraine as well, at much lower frequencies (5-15%). Nevertheless, they radiated from the Bosnian refuge as they had already been in Europe with the other men of I before that fatal LGM took place; they did not enter Europe during the Slavic conquest era with R1a men via the Ukrainian refuge r western plains of Russia; that would be false.
The things are not so simple.
Sile
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IMO
- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.
- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)
- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.
- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)
Bardhyl
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Honestly i am done here you CLEARLY didnt read once i2 haplogroup the whole article on eupedia, ehich states CLEARLY that it also IS CONNECTED with the slavic invasion. ukraine 21% i2a poland and czech republic 9% and also belarus and russia has i2a and also other slavic countries.
adamo
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Pannonians where simply celticized Illyrians, the Illyrians were I2a2 and the Dacians and thracians derived from them; the original and still today inhabitants of the Dalmatian coast before the arrival of Slavs and then to a lesser degree celts.
Scientists found three key movement R1a to Balkans:
1) Recolonization from the refugium, Ukrainen (geography) link 20,000-12,000 years ago; in the Balkans in Paleolithic or early Holocene,
2) Migrations from the Pontic steppe (Kurgan culture), from 3000 BC,
3) Slavic migrations, 5th-7th centuries.
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Of course. Because Illyria and Illyricum were only geographic terms from Greeks and Romans. In these coordinates lived many tribes, with different haplogroups. In the middle Illyria probably dominant were I2a + R1a carriers.
Thracians could have R1a, I2a, E-V13 and J markers.
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