Illyria

In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.
Are you the idiot who thinks E-V13 is an indigenous European haplogroup?

Are you serious? Do you know that it's an African branch. That every person with an E-V13 haplogroup had a pure black African ancestor? This is fact. There's no, maybe our ancestor was Neanderthal or some other hominid, your ancestor was black from Africa.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 even came to existence. You were still in Africa singing your tribal songs and doing tribal dances, without any weapons or shelter. You probably lived as nomads because you weren't smart enough to build shelter.

Now shut your stupid mouth and come back to reality.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 arrived.

Are you so dumb that you can't see this?
 
E-V13 never made it to Croatia because of the Dinaric Alps and the difficulty in conquering or even traveling through that route.

Did you even take an introductory course to biology?

Do you know that gene flow is hindered by geographic isolation?

******* seriously. You want to talk about evolution, population flows, etc, and you don't even know anything about biology?
 
Because Greeks applied frequently this term to denote both Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians, etc. So if you maintain the view that 'barbarian' term had the connotation of 'backward' Greek, then you're making all Illyrians, Thracians etc as backward Greeks!!! I am pretty convinced that both of these peoples were related closely with one another. How can be explained that ancients frequently confuse them with one another. For example, one author said that X tribe is Illyrian, others says that this tribe is Epirotean. You can't figure any sharp distinction between Illyrian and Epirotes, while in other hand, Greeks themselves reckoned Epirotes as non-Greeks.

Again, you havn`t told me what it is to be Illyrian but you claim epirots are them. You say the biggest marker is language yet the Illyrian language is still a mystery because the lack of primary evidence about it. And I`ve metnioned plenty of times now that even though some called them non-greeks others did, so stop pretending to ignore these statements because they do not suit you.

The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17]Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks

and stop pretending they did not speak a dialect of North-west Greek. I don`t say that `barbarian`only means backwards greeks, that just one of the several connitations. It also ment non-greek like you said but for you interpret it to mean Illyrian when that is just one of several possible definitions of the word is an assumption.

P.S. I posted an article i found about the albanian language in the albanian language thread, check it out.
 
Can we please stop talking about epirus and talk about Illyria, who were they, what were they like, how did they live, ect.
 
Again, you havn`t told me what it is to be Illyrian but you claim epirots are them. You say the biggest marker is language yet the Illyrian language is still a mystery because the lack of primary evidence about it.

Actually I gave to you a well definition what was meant to be Illyrian at that time. I'll try to compare Herodotean's criterion to determine the "nation" of Illyrians. To be more correct let's show an interesting point of view regarding 'national' identity of the Hellenes according to Herodotus:

...αὖτις δὲ τὸ Ἑλληνικὸν ἐὸν ὅμαιμόν τε καὶ ὁμόγλωσσον καὶ θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι ἤθεά τε ὁμότροπα...

...there is the bond of Hellenic race, by which we are of one blood and of one speech, the common temples of the gods and the common sacrifices, the manners of life which are the same for all ...
Ancients did call as Illyrians the tribes north of Ambracia up to the Danubian shores. We are well acquainted that Illyria's tribes were of the same blood, spoke an language with its local variants, had the same myths of a common origin, had the same manners of life, etc. I find as necessary to put forth some valuable descriptions by Appian:

[§1] The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube.
Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived. But I will leave these matters to antiquarians.
And I`ve metnioned plenty of times now that even though some called them non-greeks others did, so stop pretending to ignore these statements because they do not suit you.
well...I friendly invite you to put forth all citations stating that Epirotes were Greeks. Let discuss further about them if their authors really says so or are just modern interpretation. I am afraid that a couple of more cited passages to advocate the Hellenism of Epirotes are very vague.

P.S. I posted an article i found about the albanian language in the albanian language thread, check it out.
I'll check it out when I have more free time!

Can we please stop talking about epirus and talk about Illyria, who were they, what were they like, how did they live, ect.
As you wish mate! Although I do not think that Epirus should be treated separate from Illyria. However I shall bring more infos on Illyrians, their main tribes, boundaries, the manners of life, their spoken language, culture, etc. It just a matter of time because I am quite busy recent times.
 
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zajaz

but all agree that Endymion begat Paeon, Epeius, Aetolus, and also a daughter Eurycyda.

Pannon was son of Illyrus, Paeon is son of Endymion

PAnnoni and Paioni are different tribes and among them were the Tribaldi

Paion is clear area around Skopje to mount Aimos and Syntike
from Makedonians we know that,
Pannoni is area far north in Bosnia, there is no connection among Paiones and Pannoni, except Thracian LAnguage the possible we can recon for Paioni, cause we know that Didn't belong to Odrysse Thracian Family,
But in middle of Tribaldi and Brygians relatives,
their kings had Greek names and took places in olympics but they were clear considered as Greeks and we don't know if that was from Makedonian politicks, or for throne rights,
 
but all agree that Endymion begat Paeon, Epeius, Aetolus, and also a daughter Eurycyda. ,

Mythology offers many versions which contradicts each other. It is true that according to that legend, Paeon is son of Endymion:


But this does not reject at all any similarity with the Illyrian tribe of Pannonians. It has been thought that Paeonians have an obvious 'Northern' origin and may be associated with Pannonians themselves. Archeological excavations brought in light the very fact that Paeonians may be consider as bearers of Bubanj Hum group, an archeological zone in the vicinity of today's Nish (Serbia). Appian seems to confound the tribal names of Pannonians and Paeonians, hence he claimed to be derived from the same ancestor.
 
Zajaz the stage is yours.
A very interesting map to start discussion about Illyria or Ylliria is this:

herodotus-world-map-1a.jpg

herodotus_map_of_the_world.jpg

World_Map_Herodotus.jpg

herodotus%20world%20map.jpg

Plate-2a.jpg
 
In Apulia:

IAPYGES

the Iapyges have unknown[1][2] origins but could have been from Illyria.[3]
They spoke the Messapian language since the Messapians themselves were the southernmost tribe of the Iapyges. Their other tribes included the Dauni and the Peucetii.[4]
The name Iapyges is derived from Greek authors who linked the tribe's origin to Dedalus's son Iapyx. They were called Apuli, Salentini (or Sallentini) and Calabri by Roman authors. Iapygians were akin to the Oenotrians, an ancient Italic people who lived in the territory of Basilicata and Northern Calabria.
Herodotus gives a mythological tale of origin from the island of Crete.[5]


an iscription in Messapic:

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi

Venetic weren't illyrians, maybe italics

with this Good night. it's late here.
 
Science has not proved who are the Illyrians, but with the researchs of haplogroups all will be discovered as research progresses.

There are a lot of Albanians, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, etc. think they are Illyrian.

In Croatia in the 19th century, founded a movement called Illyrian movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement

The Illyrian movement (Croatian: Ilirski pokret, Slovene: Ilirsko gibanje), also Croatian national revival (Hrvatski narodni preporod), was a cultural and political campaign initiated by a group of young Croatian intellectuals during the first half of 19th century, around the years of 1835–1849 (there is some disagreement regarding the official dates).[1] This movement aimed to create a Croatian national establishment in Austria-Hungary through linguistic and ethnic unity among South Slavs.
...
The movement ... also found supporters among prominent Serbs of the time, most notably Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, the reformer of Serbian language.

Profesor John Wilkes Of University Of London claims Bosnians Are Illyrians. He found out that Romanization, Hellenization or Slavenization of the Illyrians has never taken place.

John Wilkes, Illyrian, Willey-Blackwell, 1995
www.amazon.ca/Illyrians-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075

After that, the survey revealed haplogroup in the Balkans are a lot of interesting things.
So the nations in the Balkans whose share of R1a is the largest compared to others are Slovenes and Croats.

Pericic et al, 2005
R1a, Slovenian 37%, Croatian (mainland) 34.3%
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

Romanians and Serbs are very close populations that are graphically shown Ferri et al in their work in 2010, also Bosnians and Macedonian FYROM are close to the them.

This is not surprising given the dominance of I haplogroup.

I haplogroup
Herzegovinians 70.91%, Pericic et al, 2005
Bosnians 53.65%, Pericic et al, 2005
Serbia 47,97%, Mirabal et al, 2010
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/abstract
Romania 43.5%, Rootsi et al, 2004
Croatia (mainland),36.10%, Pericic et al

Of all the people in the Balkans and Europe closest to the Egyptians are Gheg Albanians.
Ferri et al, 2010.

Among Gheg Albanian dominates E haplogroup (mainly E-V13, but are present and E-M78 *, E-M81 and E-M123)

E haplogroup
Gheg Albanians, 41.82%
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/
Albanian Kosovar (they are Gheg also), 47.20%
E-M78 1.75%, E-V13 43.85%, E-M81 0.90%, E-M123 0.90%
Pericic et al, 2005

At some Russian sites haplogroup E-M35 (E-M78 belongs it, and subhaplogroup E-V13 belongs E-M78) is called the Illyrian.

E - иллирийцы,хамитский род E1b1b1 (М35)
E - Illyrian, Hamitic clan E1b1b (M35)

my.mail.ru/community/history_civil/581DC5A5982C9E59.html


In fact the whole story about the Illyrians being the following:

Is the territory of Roman Illyricum same as the territory Greek Illyria?
The northern tribes of Roman Illyricum were I (and maybe R1a) bearers and south tribes were E carriers?
Did Illyrians belong to I or E haplogroup, in other words, if the Illyrians were Old Europeans or Hamites?

This will establish the science.

But apparently today we can say that in the Roman Illyricum inhabitants north and south consisted of two completely different populations.

Judging by today's schedule haplogroups the border is most likely went through the middle of Montenegro.

E-V13 may be only made south of Dalmatia which is the northernmost where it reached.

So if it is right that the Illyrians = Hamites = E carriers, then the northern tribes, who were I (and maybe R1a) carriers can not be called Illyrians.

If it is correct to the Illyrians = Old Europeans = I carriers, then the southern tribes, who were E carriers can not be called Illyrians.

Roman Illyricum was the only administrative unit and it is not meant to territory that was inhabited by the Illyrians, as one of two main populations of Roman Illyricum, I carriers or E carriers, were not Illyrians.



It is a bit absurd that individuals show maps where act as in wide areas of today's Croatia were the same population as in the southern parts of the Roman Illyricum where lived E-V13 carriers. This is not true because E-V13 carriers never reached those areas in today's Croatia.
 
The Greeks were the first literate people to come into frequent contact with the speakers of Illyrian languages. Their conception of "Illyroi", however, differed from what the Romans would later call "Illyricum". The Greek term encompassed only the peoples who lived on the borders of Macedonia and Epirus. Pliny the Elder, in his work Natural History, applies a stricter usage of the term Illyrii when speaking of Illyrii proprie dicti ("Illyrians properly so-called") among the native communities in the south of Roman Dalmatia.

That is Illyria, above Labeates Budva is not Illyria But Adra (adriatic) Dalmatia

Dalmatia has no connection with Illyria

don't mess Illyricum with Dalmatia,
the same Bullshit happened when Byzantines named Makedonia the Bulgaria
 
Who were the Chaones?


Who were the Chaones?
dodona-banner-small.jpg

It’s really becoming boring to read articles in Wikipedia that are poisoned and twisted by the nationalist Greek propaganda. This does not surprise us much because it is a known fact that Greece sponsors these kinds of campaigns to promote the ‘Hellenic’ past of Macedonia and Epirus, both non-Greek regions that were conquered by Greece in 1913. As a matter of fact, the Greek government, as per their revelations, spent over 130 million US dollars from 1989 to 1993 in buying reporters who will promote the “Hellenism” of Macedonia abroad and the “macedonization” of Greece at home. This case was first reported by Athens based Eleftherotypia in 1994.

Most commonly they prefer to quote N.G.L. Hammond as source to prove the ‘Hellenic’ Epirus. Our renowned hero called N.G.L. Hammond (who is accredited in British circles as specialist on Epirus matters) many times makes mistakes that would shame even a first grade student. At first to strengthen the idea that Epirotes were archaic Greeks, Hammond artfully selects a quotation of Ps-Scylax to assume that he (Ps-Scylax) distinguishes Illyrians from Chaones (one of the major Epirotic tribes). This is sufficient for him to proclaim the Hellenism of Chaones. Let us take a look at Hammond’s nonsense:


Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking” (1).

To have a clear image as to what Ps-Scylax is saying let us quote the original phrase in Greek:

[Ps-Scylax, Europe 1.28]: “ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ’ ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.”

Translation:


”CHAONES. After the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day”.

If we take just a piece of the text, then maybe we come to conclusions similar to those of Hammond, but if we take a look in another paragraph, we completely change our mind:

[Ps-Scylax, Europe 1.28]: “ΑΜΒΡΑΚΙΑ. Μετὰ δὲ Μολοττίαν Ἀμβρακία πόλις Ἑλληνίς· ἀπέχει δὲ αὕτη ἀπὸ θαλάττης στάδια π. Ἔστι δὲ καὶ ἐπὶ θαλάττης τεῖχος καὶ λιμὴν κλειστός. Ἐντεῦθεν ἄρχεται Ἑλλὰς συνεχὴς εἶναι μέχρι Πηνειοῦ ποταμοῦ καὉμολίου Μαγνητικῆς πόλεως, ἥ ἐστι παρὰ τὸν ποταμόν

AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city: and this is distant from sea 80 stades. And there is also upon the sea a fort and an enclosed harbour. From here Hellas begins to be continuous as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory, which is beside the river”.

According to Ps-Scylax, Greece starts from Ambracia and does not include Epirus. Not to anger our southern neighbors, we will bring two more quotations that prove just that:

[Strabo book 8/1/1]: After the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, then, come the following peoples of the Greeks: the Acarnanians, the Aetolians, and the Ozolian Locrians; and, next, the Phocians and Boeotians; and opposite these, across the arm of the sea, is the Peloponnesus, which with these encloses the Corinthian Gulf”.

[Strabo book 8/1/3]: “Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes”.

Point of interest:


  • Strabo distinguishes Epeirotes and Illyrians from Greeks (Acarnanians, Aetolians, Locrians, Phocians and Boetians).
  • Strabo marks Acarnania as the beginning of Greece which implies that Epirus was never part of Greece.
foto3.jpg

Ancient literary sources are more than enough to reinforce the fact that Chaones (Χάονες) were part of the Illyrian family (2). According to Virgil, “Chaon (an obvious Trojan name) was the eponymous ancestor of the Chaones (Virgil. Aeneid, 3.295). John Buckler stresses out that “The Chaones were Illyrians who bordered Epeiros on the north and the Molossians on their west, all three peoples being Kerkyra’s closest mainland neighbours(3)”.
corinto-tempio-apollo.jpg

Therefore if we sum up all the evidences provided to us by ancient writers, we notice that most of them prove the non-Greek identity of Chaones. They were frequently referred with various terms as Pelasgians, Thracians or as close relatives to Illyrians (4). An another decisive proof for Illyrian being of Chaones comes from Hecataeus of Miletus of the 6th century BC describing Dexaroi” as the most northern Chaonian tribe. Hammond deliberately tries to reject the Illyrian being of this Chaonian sub-tribe, although there are a plethora of literary and archeological evidences enlightening the very fact that Dexaroi were nothing but a duplicate of the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretae. This become more conclusive from a legend (transmitted to us by Appian), who portray “Dassaro” (the female eponym of Dassareates) as one of the daughters of Illyrius. Their various cities like Pellion, Antipatrea, Chrysondyon, Gertous (or Gerous) and Creonion are archeologically ascertained to have been Illyrian centres.
nheeH2tT2gdvNeMLy2BcIa.jpg

In addition with the above mentioned proofs, it should be pay attention to an another striking fact: “Suliones” were a Chaonian tribe, named by the poet Rhyanus who is quoted by Steph. Byzantinus (v. Συλίονες). Their name recall to mind the famous Suliotes during the wars for Greek independence (6). This become conclusive not only with the strict resemblance between the name of Albanian Suliotes (Suliote = Συλίονες) but even their geographical extension is almost the same, which make us to believe for a lineal continuity of old Chaones to the modern Albanians of Chameria region.
Souliotes_19th_century_painting.jpg


Footnotes:
(1) The Cambridge Ancient History – The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3″ by P Mack Crew, 1992, p. 284
(2) The New Encyclopaedia Britannica: Volume 1, Encyclopaedia Britannica, inc – 1987, p.212: They were divided into many tribes of which the best known are, from north to south: Dalmatae, Ardaei, Dardani, Albani, Taulantii, Labeati, Orestes, Molossi, Chaones, and Thesproti. At one stage of their incursions the Illyrians crossed…”
(3) Aegean Greece in the fourth century BC, John Buckler, 2003, p.256.
(4) Researches into the physical history of mankind: Volume 2, James Cowles Prichard, 1826, p. 54: “…the Chaones in Epirus, are, by some authors, termed Thracians, while by others they are set down as Pelasgi“.
(5) Appian’s History of Rome: The Illyrian Wars §§1-5: “Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived”.
(6) A geographical and historical description of ancient Greece, Volume 1, John Anthony Cramer,1828, p. 106

Sourece: http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html
 
Who were the Chaones?


Who were the Chaones?
It’s really becoming boring to read articles in Wikipedia that are poisoned and twisted by the nationalist Greek propaganda. This does not surprise us much because it is a known fact that Greece sponsors these kinds of campaigns to promote the ‘Hellenic’ past of Macedonia and Epirus, both non-Greek regions that were conquered by Greece in 1913. http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html

Which is funny because Wiki has hired historians now to edit their pages. You start to sound like the Skopians who think that the whole academic world has some hiden agenda that is pro-greece. Now you act this way.

Epirus was and is still greek. Northern Epirus has been albaniszed, though there are still greeks there who are not treated very well!

Macedonia was and is greek. Skopians can cry me a river their communist propaganda machine didn't work.
 
Northern Epirus has been albaniszed, though there are still greeks .......
I'm a little bit :confused: how they has been converted in Albanians?!!:rolleyes:
Now can you explain me what does this chart mean:
Around 1888, German geographer, Alfred Philippson calculated all the Albanians in Greece at that time to 224,000.
Ethnographische Karte des Peloponnes (ethnographic map of the Peloponnese)
by Dr. Alfred Philippson, Petermanns Mitteilungen, 1890.http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/pelopones_ethnic.jpg
The first attempt to count the population through local sources, attempted by Kapodistrias in 1828, showed that the population of the country at the time was 753,400 people. (Peter Kiochou, lecturer A.V.S.P. "The evolution of the Greek population and the prediction that by 2000, University of Piraeus)
According to the first official census (1856 and 1861), the total population of Greece, some decades later, was about one million (1,062,627 in 1856 and 1,096,810 in 1861)
That the Albanians in the early 19 th century were about 1 / 4 the total population of Greece . (or the rest of the population was of course pure Greeks, but most Vlachs, Slavs, Turks, North African, etc., which will be presented shortly the " Free Research ".)
Albanians because they had no alphabet, could not express in writing their thoughts. The first written monument of the Albanian is «Meshari», which means "functional." The author was a Gjon Buzuku and printed in Roman characters in 1555. Includes cuts gospels, prophecies, quotes, etc. sacred sequences. The Holy Synod to meet the needs of the populous Albanian element in Greece, the New Testament translated into Albanian and published in Corfu in 1827. (Supervision Gregory, Archbishop of Evia and chairman of the Holy Synod.)
Remember that during the ottoman occupation in the Balkans only the Albanian language was outlawed the teaching and learning!!! -Why?!!
These documents are very interesting even for the genetic studies!
I think that the "Megali Idea" has nothing to do with the history and the truth!

1. "The [Greek] claim to southern Albania rests entirely on the assumption that the majority of the population is Greek. The Greeks are stated to number 120,000 and Albanians 80,000. But who are the ´Greeks´? At least five sixths of them, if not more are Christian Albanians of the Orthodox faith, Albanians in sentiment and language, who because they acknowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople are declared to be Greek in point of ´national consciousness´."
("The Nineteenth Century and After XIX-XX a Monthly Review", founded by James Knowles, Vol. LXXXVI, July-December 1919, page 645.)
 
Albanized beacuse like the serbs after the byzantine empire started its slow and steady decent after the 4th crusade the populations started to migrate southward;

13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png


Of course the Greeks here didn't simply dissapear they were assimulated into the invading peoples. Its good that they rediscovered their roots again when greece came back. Its also quite a coincidence that the gheg and tosk albanians dialiects sepearation line is also quite similar to the lines we see above!

Dialects_of_the_Albanian_Language.png


Maybe its time we start to look at what southen "albanians" really are! I remember reading here that southern albanians genetics are different from northern albanians because of the additional J haplogroup, something typically associated with greek peoples!
 
Which is funny because Wiki has hired historians now to edit their pages. You start to sound like the Skopians who think that the whole academic world has some hiden agenda that is pro-greece. Now you act this way.

I guess there is a huge misconception by your side because the article I brought up here is not mine. Of course I agree wholeheartedly with it, but I'm not the author. I've just posed here.

By the way, article seems to be back up with relevant quotes and references, so what's the problem, Elias?
 
The problem I have is when people seem to think the academic world ha some secret agenda that is pro-greece.

If Epirus and Illyria were the same the Romans wouldn't have made a "epirus nova" (New epirus) after that area was hellenised, which then pushes the boundary of Illyria up north, which shows that what people thought of what was an epirots and an Illyrian were different. You can nitpcik on cetain things but there is a clear definition divide even to the romans. "Albanian" wouldn't make a cultural mark untill the 14th century with the migrations south.

You should read about the roman-Illyrian wars in 230 BC, look at where the roman troops went, the position of the greek vs Illlyrian towns. You focus too much on just one type of information, the written and inherantly biased based on the writters viewpoints. Start taking a look at other sources, archeaological, war patterns, ect.

I don't mean to say that Illyrian towns were not In epirus, most certainly they were just like how there are Greek cities in Illyria proper. And don't be so surprised if they share cultural elements with each other, people are not static things, we move and adopt traits from who we come into contact with.

Trying to disassociate Epirus with the hellenic world you will have to go to big lengths that doesn't nessacaraly fit what with the evidence says, but you are welcome to try. I will still believe what academia says more than what people choose and not choose to say on the internet, especially when it comes from a skopian about macedonia (off topic).
 
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well seems that some people do not want see other side of the coin

a good point about modern albania

1 Arbanites YDNA
2 Arberesh Ydna

1 is more E-V13 dominant
2 is more I2 dominant

House of Anju were Cumans where Cumans can be found in Balkans?

it is simple
I llyrians are the MAjority of Albanians today but an Inavasion from 1200 and after from Romania - Dacia had happened,
in fact that invasion was silent and mainly has to do with Uniate and the return of Maniakes Army to Catholicism from Orthodox defenders in South Italy against Normands,
The same problem had Kastrioti in His Time
Gennetic proves that altough Arvanites and Arberesh have simmilar language,
Arvanites comes from area north of Berat (Beyrut) to lake skodra,
Albanians comes from Transylvania region
That Big head and short people is mainly in E-V13 areas that starts from Lerna area Peloponese and continues mountain areas to Dardania,
 
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look at map
Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png




north most Illyrians are Ardiaei / Vardiaei in Montenegro...

their name is clearly derived from Thracian word Bardários or from PIE *(s)wordo meaning Black (same as origin of name of river Vardar / Axios in Greek)

black color was designation of north in many various people (iranian, Chinese, Slavic, various steppe people...)..... e.g. Black sea has meaning north sea, while Red sea = south sea...

Ardiaei / Vardiaei tribal name is = northerners


similarly Albanoi in Epirus Nova are simply = westerners, as white color is designation for west...

Ardiaei / Vardiaei disappeared in wars with Autoriatae....
according to Strabo Scordisci /Serdi were mixed with Illyrians and their ally

now, look at map again... north of Ardiaei / Vardiaei are Autoriatae, northeast are Serdi/Scordisci....

Autoriatae and Scordisci/Serdi are easily Croat and Serb tribal names... thus, higher E-V13 in Montenegro (30%) than in Serbia (20%) and Croatia (5%) because north most Illyrians Ardiaei / Vardiaei (northerners) lived in Montenegro, but were according to Strabo also living mixed with Scordisci (proto-Serbs) and were in war with Autoriatae (proto-Croats)

real Illyrians were E-V13

however, few Illyrian words whose meaning is preserved are fairly good match to Slavic and are alien to Albanian because they were probably related not to Illyrians proper but to Roman province of Illyricum...

Slavic people are of Veneti origin (clear from history data e.g. Jordanes), thus they were originally living north of Illyrians that is in Roman province of Illyricum, but not in real Illyricum which is Albania + part of Montenegro... early Slavic people (who are classified as being of Veneti race) are clearly I2a2 as I have explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341
 

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