Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Is R1b U106 linked with Halstat and La Tène ?

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Is R1b U106 linked with Halstat and La Tène ?



    On various map of Proto Germanic people, we can see that before the late iron ages, Netherland, Belgium and Luxemburg were not in the Germanic area.R1b U106 is high in the Benelux area and the surroundings regions.
    It could have brought La Tène in England before being Germanized. (so English R1B U106 would be both La Tène and Anglo Saxon)

    R1b U1O6 is higher than R1b U152 in Austria, the craddle of Halstatt culture.




    So there are at least 2 Hotspot of R1b U106 that became "Germanic" very later.

    Also R1B U106 is low in Sweden and Poland were Germanic culture is recorded very early.

    To me, it seems that R1b U106 was germanized during the late iron age by R1a and I1 people from the Germanic Homeland (Scandinavia, Norterhn germany, Northern Poland).

  2. #2
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,931
    Points
    20,175
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,175, Level: 43
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 575
    Overall activity: 50.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    The Halstatt/La Tene expansion seems to correlate fairly well with the expansion of R1b-S28, but that culture probably would have been an admixture. If it contained R1b-U106, it would not have contained all that much, because its patterns don't match the expansion pattern as well. I would not guess that R1b-U106 belonged exclusively to Halstatt/La Tene, because it is older than the expansion of Halstatt/La Tene, right? Do we know where the highest diversity of R1b-U106 occurs?

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    The highest frequency of R1b U106 is Netherland (35%), then Austria (22,70%), Engalnd (20,3%), Germany (18,70%),Denmark (16,8%), Czech Republic (13,9%),Switzerland (13,3%).

    The most intersting being Austria (22,70%), the craddle of Halstatt culture with a higher frequency of U106 than Germany and Denmark.

    Czech Republic almost 14% for a non Germanic speaking country AND an ancient part of the HALSTATT culture.

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    When you see a map of La Tène and Halstatt culture, you can find several core than spred in diffrent direction:
    *marne- moselle group
    *old halstatt core (Austria-southern Germany)
    *La tène core (switzerland)

    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Maxime/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png[/IMG]

    in this map, for example, western Netherland (35%), Eastern England (20,7%), Flander, Austria (22,70%) ,Czech Republic (13,9%) and Switzerland (13,3%)
    are within Halstatt culture area

  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France







    The Halstatt core and the Easternmost La Tène core correlate more with U106 than U152
    If R1b U152 is of course liknked with Halstatt but explain me why it is absent from Austria and Czech Republic ? and why it is so high in Central Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, Western Poland ?

  6. #6
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,931
    Points
    20,175
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,175, Level: 43
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 575
    Overall activity: 50.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Frequency, of course, is less interesting than diversity when trying to determine a geographic origin of a haplogroup. If a location has a high frequency but low diversity of a haplogroup, the more likely explanation is often than an expansion occurred relatively recently into the area. So it's difficult to draw conclusions with frequency alone here, especially because history indicates that the Germanic tribes expanded southward later on.

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,994
    Points
    14,808
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,808, Level: 36
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 42
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    There's a few issues to be considered here:

    - First off, the appearance of both the R1b-U106 and R1b-U152 markers predate the appearance of Hallstatt and La-Tene by many centuries. That makes it obviously impossible to associate things 1:1 with archaeological or ethnolinguistic groupings.

    - The oldest occurence of R1b thus far is actually R1b-U106 from the Lichtenstein cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture. Now, the Hallstatt Culture is in turn an outgrowth/continuation of the Urnfield Culture. It hence stands to reason that Urnfield indeed was Celtic or Proto-Celtic (this is also supported up by the fact that Proto-Germanic borrowed a number of terms from Celtic).

    - Then, it should be added that Hallstatt and La-Tene are not exactly the same. The origins of La-Tene lay at the periphery of the Hallstatt Culture. It's also clear that by no means R1b-U152 was exclusively Celtic because it's considerable abundance in southern Italy (conversely, R1b-U152 cannot be exclusively Italic because the Romans never were in western Poland, whereas the pre-Germanic population of that area can verymuch have been Celtic or Proto-Celtic).

    It's therefore easily possible, in my opinion, that R1b-U106 is linked with both the Celtic Hallstatt Culture and the Germanic peoples.
    Of course, if R1b-U106 was also associated there's a few questions here:

    - If R1b-U106 was also (partially) associated with Celtic-speaking peoples, this raises the question if R1b-U106 was present on the British Isles before the Anglo Saxon invasions.

    - In Galicia, there is a peak of R1b-U106. Did it arrive only in the Migrations Period with the Suebi, or did it already arrive much earlier by Hallstatt traders that introduced iron working?

    Of course, there is also to be considered what sparkey said: the frequency of a certain Haplogroup doesn't say much about it's origin - it's the diversity that matters. In that respect, there's the other thread I posted, which considers a subclade of I2 and it's probably association with La-Tene.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post




    It's therefore easily possible, in my opinion, that R1b-U106 is linked with both the Celtic Hallstatt Culture and the Germanic peoples.
    Of course, if R1b-U106 was also associated there's a few questions here:
    That's exactly my point. R1B U106 being so old, there could have been distant cousin R1b U106 people in both Halstatt and Germanic cultures.
    I tend to believe that there was a southern and Celtic related R1B U106 hot spot around Austria and Bohemia.






    As for R1b U152 in Italy and western Poland, the Urnfield culture may have something to with it.
    (If I remember, the Italic people's invasions precedes the Halstatt period)

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Actually, Italic and Latin people that peopled Central then Southern Italy may explain a first wave of R1b U152 around 1000 years BC. That first wave linked to Villanovian and Urnfield culture precede the Etruscan civilisation.

    Then thre is a second wave of R1b U152 in the IVth century bc with the arrival of Gauls from eastern France were U152 is today prevalent (hotspot in Alsace).

    to me, it's quite obvious that there are at least two differents waves of U152 in Italy since Latin people considered Northern Italian closer to Gauls than to them.

Similar Threads

  1. New map of R1b-S21 (U106)
    By Maciamo in forum R1b
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 07-12-13, 21:04
  2. U152* or U106*
    By brianco in forum R1b
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 25-01-11, 18:25
  3. North Italian R1b-U106 and the Lombards
    By iodalach_draiodoir in forum R1b
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-11-10, 16:59
  4. Origin of Y-haplogroup subclade S21/U106
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 22-08-09, 13:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •