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Thread: who were Slavic people?

  1. #1
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    who were Slavic people?



    western linear pottery - Dniester and Danube spread




    early Slavs - 500 AD - Dniester and Danube spread




    Dniester


    Dnieper



    Don



    historic distribution of Slavic languages - supposed core - along Dniester, on east up to Dnieper




    Slavonic tribes 9th century - still far west from Don



    I2a2 core - Dniester and Danube spread, on east up up to Dnieper




    R1a core - Don spread


  2. #2
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    let's look at south Slavs to see whether they brought more R1a or I2a2
    south Slavs

    area_________________I2a2______R1a
    Croatia -mainland______32.4%____34.3%
    Serbia_______________29.2%____15.93%
    Bosnia_______________52.2%____24.6%
    Herzegovina__________63.83%___12.06%
    Kosovo (Albanians)______2.65%____4.42%
    Macedonians__________29.11%___15.19%

    Herzegovina is place where Serbs initally settled
    nearby Dalmatia is where Croats initially settled
    those are areas with highest I2a2

    common for all south Slavs is I2a2, while R1a varies a lot...

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg


    Serbia and Montenegro
    haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
    I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
    I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
    I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
    E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
    R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
    R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
    J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
    J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
    J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
    G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
    N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
    Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
    H______________2.2% ___1.5%
    L_______________0.6%____1.2%
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

    very Slavic Montenegro has as high as 7.4% R1a
    while nearby non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia have 12.6%


    FYRM
    http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
    sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
    _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
    E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
    E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
    E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
    G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
    H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
    1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
    I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
    I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
    I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
    J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
    J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
    J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
    J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
    L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
    N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
    R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
    R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
    R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
    T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

    In FYRM, R1a is roughly the same in non-Slavic Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, while I2a2 is quite different!


    Greece



    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

    Note R1a much larger among Greek Macedonians and on Crete than in any nearby south Slavic people
    and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan

  3. #3
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    now pay attention to core of Slavs around Dniester (and up to Dnieper on east and Pripyat on north, and Vistula on west), and to directions of spread to northwest, north, and northeast from the core



    location and directions of spread are very clearly seen in I2a2




    but not in R1a whose core is around Don which is area that Slavic people still didnot settle in 9th century...


  4. #4
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    thus, it is obvious from previous posts that I2a2 is much better suited to be marker of original Slavic people than R1a

    in my current opinion R1a Slavic people largely origin from ancient Hurians/Iranians/Oghur related people (Oghur related people include Bulgars, Hunnic, Avar, Khazar, perhaps Magyar...), while I2a2 Slavic people largely origin from original Slavs and those origin from western linear pottery culture, and from later Serians, Cimmerians (perhaps same as Serians?), Thracians and Veneti...

    western linear pottery


    Thraco-Cimmerians


    early Slavs


    I2a



    R1a is to be associated with steppe Kurgan and Dnieper-Don cultures and later Scythians, Sarmatians, Avars, Oghurs...

    Dnieper-Don




    according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer, state of Zeruiani (Serians/Serbs) was so big that all Slavic people origin from it....
    19th century Slovak scientist Pavel Shafarik was based on studying historic data convinced that all Slavic people origin from Serbs and that Serbs was tribal name originally used by all Slavic people

    if we look back at location for core of R1a, people who lived in core R1a area are Scythians, Sarmatians, Oghurs, Hunni, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars...

    or in fact mostly speakers of Iranian and Oghur languages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages

    in south Slavs R1a peaks in Croats

    historian J.B. Bury has no doubt that Croatian legend of origin is same as the one of Bulgarians and is about same Hunnic nation to which related tribes of Bulgars, Cotrigurs and Onogundurs belonged to...

    http://books.google.com/books?id=wDI...page&q&f=false

    Turkish historian Osman Karatay also speaks of turkish origin of proto-Croats and identifies white-Croats with white-Ogurs
    http://books.google.com/books?id=h_Q...B.Bury&f=false

    in fact, Oghur ( = Og + Hur) and H(u)rvat ( = Hur + vat) tribal names might both easily derive from same "Hur" basis as in Hurians..

    note also: ak (turkic white = west) + Hur = AkHur = Oghur = west/white Hurians = white/west Croats
    (white is color used to denote west in steppe cultures)

    worth nothing is that among R1a there is also M458 branch that is present in Europe (along with other R1a branches) but rare in Asia. Therefore, this branch is considered marker of Slavic people... (although it is typically only around half of R1a in Czech, Poles, Slovaks..)
    In Croatia however, out of 26.9% R1a only 2.8% is M458

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

    Although Magyars are not speakers of non-IE Oghur but of Ugro-Finnic non-IE lanuages, another word used for Magyars/Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same tribal name as Oghur... and looking at R1a spread it is clear that proto-Magyars must have been non-IE speaking R1a people...

    in Hungary 4.4% out of 20,4% is M458
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

    so, who says Hunnic/Avar related nations has disappeared from Europe....

    possible relation of R1a to Turkic Oghur people also indicates why Scythian people are R1a while their culture reminds of Turkic people more than on Slavic people...



    Scythian way of dressing we see today e.g. in Turkic Balkars



    The Balkars (Karachay-Balkar: sg. таулу - tawlu, pl. таулула - tawlula) are a Turkic people of the Caucasus region, one the titular populations of Kabardino-Balkaria. Their Karachay-Balkar language is of the Ponto-Caspian subgroup of the Northwestern (Kypchak) group of Turkic languages.

    The origins of the Balkar people have not yet been definitively established: various hypotheses have associated them with the Huns, the Khazars, the Bulgars, the Alans, the Zikhs, the Brukhs, the Kipchaks (Qïpchaqs, Polovtsians), the Vengrians, the Chekhs, the Mongol Tatars, the Crimean Tatars, and Turkicized Japhetic groups. Some contemporary scholars attribute their origin to a cultural conglomeration of northern Caucasian tribes with the Iranian-speaking Alans and with Turkish-speaking tribes, among which the most significant were probably the Black Bulgars and the Western Kipchaks. Elements of Balkar culture indicate a long association with the Near East, the Mediterranean, the rest of the Caucasus, and Russia. In the pre-Mongol period (before the thirteenth century) the Balkars were part of the Alan union of tribes, but after the Mongol invasion they retreated into the canyons of the central Caucasus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars

    Balkars have 25.7% R1a which is significantly more than most south Slavs (with exception of Croats from Croatia) 2.2% of 25.7% of R1a in Balkars is M-458(thus 8.6% of their R1a is of European/Slavic origin) , which is very alike the ratio in Croats (2.8% out of 26.9% gives 10.4% of European/Slavic R1a in Croats)...

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

    Unfortunately, there is no data for Bulgars, but I would expect similarly low share of M-458 as in Balkars and Croats because tribal name Balkars is obviously same as Bulgars, and legend of origin of Bulgars and Croats is according to historian Bury identical one...

    while Croats are reach in R1a and reach in non-Slavic R1a (only 10.4% is M458 compared to up to 50% in Poles, Czechs and Slovaks)

    Serbs are poor in R1a but have significantly higher ratio of Slavic R1a marker M458

    4.8% M-458 out of 13.3% R1a in Bosnian Serbs (thus 36% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)
    3.5% M-458 out of 15.9% R1a in Serbia Serbs (thus 22% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)

    there is another big difference in non-Slavic R1a of Croats and non-Slavic R1a of Serbs...
    the one in Serbs is according to Klyosov ancient old - much older than the rest of Euroasia (without south Siberia) taken together, while the one in Croats is not older than in the rest of Euroasia...

    evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
    Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
    http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 13-03-11 at 06:55.

  5. #5
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    actually, I mention Thracians above
    but Thracians are probably not related people

    by comparing vocabularies of Slavic with preserved Illyrian and Thracian words, Illyrian language must have been much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...548#post367548

    this make sense as Slavic people are claimed to be of Venetic origin, and Veneti are in general considered to be somewhat related to Illyrians...


    in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

    we also have Russian primary chronicle that relates early Slavs with people living around Danube...
    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.
    Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
    and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf
    Russian primary chronicle is written in year 1113. In that time Bulgaria was around Danube till area of today Voivodina, and Voivodina was Hungary.... so, description of Bulgarian and Hungarian lands around Danube in fact is about whole lower flow of Danube from Hungary to Black sea....
    this implies Thracian + Scordisci + Pannonians are proto-Slavs....

    however, vocabulary of Thracian is foreign to Slavic, and Scordisci are supposed to be Celtic people...

    actually, Thrace is not along Danube, Moesia is!!!

  6. #6
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    If Russian primary chronicle speaks truth then proto-Slavic people are not Thracians but in fact Moesi/Triballi and perhaps Dacians and Pannonians as nations that live along Danube, and Venetic people as people who Russian primary chronicle identifies with Noricans



    The large number of Dacian/Moesian davae (town names end in '-dava' or '-deva') across entire Moesia, parts of Thrace and Dalmatia, indicates a much closer linguistic affinity between Dacian and Moesian languages, than between Moesian and Thracian, hinting to a much closer connection between Dacians and Moesians. The distinctly Thracian -para and -bria endings for town names are mostly present south of Moesia, making Balkan Mountains (Haemus Mons), the linguistic border between Daco-Moesian and Thracian languages and cultures.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesi

    town names ending in -dava we can attest in Slavic name for fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard /rough /solid) + dava

    interesting is that -dava is used in enitre Moesia, parts of Thrace (that would be north Thrace), but also in Dalmatia!!!

    now, Austrian sources did use word Illyrians for Serbs...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#Name_and_etymology

    my opinion is that this was not about Illyrians proper but about people of Roman province of Illyria that were according to Strabo Pannonians and Veneti... Illyrians proper lived more or less in what is now Albania and part of Montenegro...

    worth nothing is that some Byzantine sources use word Tribali for Serbs

    The term "Triballians" (in Greek or Latin) appears frequently in byzantine and other european writers of the middle ages, referring to contemporary events of their time [12][13][14]. Some of these authors explain clearly that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, D. Chalkondyles (1423-1511), referring to an islamized christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[15]. Also, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155-1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[16].
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

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    there are attempts to reconstruct Dacian vocabulary

    The Dacian language is poorly documented. Unlike for ancient Thracian, or Phrygian, there are no surviving inscriptions in the language.[citation needed] In ancient literary sources, the Dacian names for a number of medicinal plants and herbs survive in ancient texts.[3][4] that includes about 60 plants names with Dioscorides [5]. Some 100 Daco-Moesian placenames are documented and some 20 personal names.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]. Dacian language is also known through several hundred proper names [6], [7], about 900 toponyms [7], and one short inscription[6] [5].
    ....
    Both Georgiev and Duridanov use the comparative linguistic method to decipher ancient Thracian and Dacian names, respectively.
    Georgiev argues that one can reliably decipher the meaning of an ancient place-name in an unknown language by comparing it to its successor-names and to cognate place-names and words in other IE languages, both ancient and modern. Georgiev considers decipherment by analysis of root-words(Wurzeletymologien) to be "devoid of scientific value".[29] He gives several examples of his methodology, of which one is partly reproduced here:
    The town and river (a tributary of the Danube) in eastern Romania called Cernavodă. In Slavic, the name means "black water". The same town in antiquity was known as Άξίοπα (Axiopa) or Άξιούπολις (Axioupolis) and its river as the Άξιος (Axios). The working assumption is, therefore, that Axiopa means "black water" in Dacian. According to the known rules of formation of IE composite words, this breaks down as axi = "black" and opa or upa = "water" in Dacian (the -polis element is ignored, as it is a Greek suffix meaning "city"). The assumption is then validated by examining cognate placenames. The axi element is validated by another Danube tributary called the Axios, which is today known as Crna reka ("black river") and by the older Greek name for the Black sea, Άξεινος πόντος (Axeinos pontos, later altered to the euphemism Euxeinos pontos = "Hospitable sea"). The opa/upa element is validated by the Lithuanian cognate upė ("water") an by the Romanian cognate apă ("water").[30] (N.B. This etymology was questioned by Russu: Axiopa, a name attested only in Procopius' De Aedificiis, may be a corrupt form of Axiopolis).[31]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

    some of reconstructed words


    1) *aba, apa[14] water, river *ab- ("water", "river")

    ok, this is about river names....
    Slavic ending for river is often -ava

    example in ex Yugoslavia Morava, Drava, Sava, Tamnava, Mlava....

    thus, 1/1

    2) *akmon[17] stone, rock


    Slavic kamen = stone, rock

    thus, 2/2

    3)

    *alda (noun),
    *alta- (adj.)[21] swamp, waterlogged

    I would say this is bad reconstruction as in Illyrian there is
    alt = stream

    Slavic liti = to flow

    thus, 3/3



    3/4 *alm- to flow, to stream RN Almus - no match
    3/5 *amalas mistletoe PN Amlaidina - no match
    3/6 *auras water RN Αύρας - no match
    3/7 *axi- black PN Άξίοπα - no match
    4/8 *baidas frightening, repulsive - bojati se (to be afraid)
    4.5/9 *bal warrior bojnik / vojnik
    5/10 *balas,*balos[24] strong [24] *bel ('strong')[24], - balast = carried weight

    6/11 *balas white belo
    7/12 *berza birch-tree breza
    7/13 *bur, buris[28]
    7/14 *brukla[29] cranberry

    7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling

    8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak

    8.5/17 *daba character, nature dobar = good natured

    9.5/18 *dava city, fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard/solid/strong) + dava = fortress
    9.5 / 19 *degis burning, shining PRN Degis
    9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
    this is Celtic ending!!

    10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of

    10.5/22 *dita(s)[38] light (noun), bright (adj.)
    11.5 /23 *drasda thrush (bird) drozd
    12/24 *dribas, *drigas[40] wild, restless dripac - punk, corrupt person

    12/25 *duia[43] swamp or mist, drizzle

    13/26 *dumas dark brown tama = darkness
    13/27 *galtis sheet-ice, frost
    13/28 *genukla[45] pasture, meadow
    13/29 *geras[47] good (-natured), kind
    13/30 *germas hot, warm PN Γέρμαζα
    13/31 *gilus[49] deep
    14/32 *gira (giria) forest or mountain gora = mountain
    14/33 *granda[51] plank
    14/34 *griva[53] river-bed or river-mouth
    14/35 kaga[55] sacred, holy
    15/36 *kalas catfish? karaš
    15/37 *kapas hill, slope
    16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together
    17/39 *karsa cave kras = carst
    18/40 *katas stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin katun = shepards temporary house in hills
    18/41 *keda chair, stool
    19/42 *kerba swampy ground čorba = thick soup
    19/43 *kerna bush
    19/44 *kerta clearing in a wood
    19/45 *kina dry place in a swamp
    19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora
    19/47 *krata swampy place or pile, heap
    19/48 *kurta grove, glade
    20/49 *lug- swamp, morass lug = grove
    20/50 *maska pool, puddle
    20/51 *medeka glade, small wood
    20/52 *musas mould, moss
    20/53 *nara(s) river, brook
    20/54 *pala, *palma swamp, bog
    21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float
    21/56 *preida pine-tree
    21/57 *put- to swell, thicken
    21/58 *ramus peaceful, restful - mir = peace
    21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain
    21/60 *rus- to flow
    21/61 *san-apa confluence (of two rivers)
    22/62 *sausas dry suvo = dry, suša = dry period
    22/63 *sermas river, river-current
    22/64 *skabas sharp, quick, lively
    22/65 *skaudus painful, sad or powerful
    22/66 *skuia fir-tree
    22/67 *skumbras hill, down
    23/68 *spirus fast, quick, rapid brzo
    24/69 *stendas stiff, rigid, viscose stena =rock
    24/70 *suka tear (ripped), gap
    24/71 *suras salty
    24/72 *taras chatterer, gossiper
    25/73- *tauta people, nation, country četa = group of people (forming military unit)
    25/74 *tiras bare, barren, desolate
    26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati
    26/76 *upa river
    26/77 *urda stream, brook
    26/78 *vaigas fast, rapid
    27/79 *varpa whirlpool vir
    27/80 *visas fertile, fruitful
    28/81 *zalmo- fur, skin, shield šlem = helmet
    28/82 *zelmas shoot (of a plant) zemlja = ground
    28/83 *zud-as careful, precise
    29/84 *zuras hot, shining zora = dawn
    29/85 *zuv- fish

    conclusion is that reconstructed Dacian words are much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian words...

    but still quite far away for continuity....
    though we should keep in mind that this is reconstructed vocabulary....

    but we do not really expect Dacians to be proto-Slavic
    as Dacians map to earlier eastern linear pottery, while Slavic people map to earlier western linear pottery...


    proto-Slavic would be Triballians in Moesia part of Danube flow, Pannonians in Pannonia and Veneti around Vistula and in Noricum... also Sarmatian Venedi (probably same as Antes) would be among Veneti



    all these would be dominantly I2a2 people, perhaps with M458 R1a admixture

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    Some more quick matches. I could find more if I’m more creative.

    7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling – buda, a shack

    8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *
    u- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak – ciukac, to hit with a tip of a nife.

    9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
    this is Celtic ending!! - rodina


    10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of – dziki, wild

    15/37 *kapas hill, slope – kopa, a heap

    16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together – karb, groove.

    19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora - klon

    20/53 *nara(s) river, brook – many rivers in Poland contain derivatives of nara.

    21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float - plyn

    21/57 *put- to swell, thicken - puchnac

    21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain - mrzawka

    26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati, - trutututu, pretending to play on a trumpet.

    I agree that Dalmatian looks closer to Slavic than Thracian and Illyrian. It was probably as related as Baltic languages, other words as long neighboring regions, or languages that had split from same one few thousands years ago.

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    From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

    now, Huns as bravest race... one of two Hunish people Sabiri, other Altziagiri...
    alziagiri is coin word altzia+ Giri...Giri is possibly about Hurians...Altzia could be about place name or side of world in some language...

    thus, Hunish are again Serian/Hurian pair, same as Celtic Scordisci / Helvetti, early Germanic Sciri/Hirri, late Germanic Scirians / Heruli, and last Slavic Serbs / Croats.... interestingly those tribe pairs are mentioned in different times... first Celtic pair, than Germanic pair, than Hunnish pair, than Slavic pair....
    Hunish people ruled over Slavic...but late Germanic Scirians and Heruli coexist on same places where later Slavic Serbs and Croats appear......

    Hunuguri = Hunish + Hurians

    are known for trading with marten skin...
    Croats are known to have traded with marten skin in ancient times...
    their money is now called kuna = marten
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna


    now, let us remind ourselves of Seneca's mention of Serians

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    he Sabir people inhabited the Caspian Depression prior to the arrival of the Avars. They appear to have been a Turkic people, possibly of Hunnic origin. "The name Sabir has been linked by some scholars with the name Siberia (where it may have been an alternative name for the Ugrian-speaking Mansi/Vogul) and even with the far Eastern Hsien-pi".[1]


    Near East in 500 AD, showing the Sabirs and neighboring peoples.
    The Sabir lived predominantly in the Pontic steppe region bounded on the east by the Caspian Sea, on the west by the Black Sea and on the south by the Caucasus Mountains. Priscus mentions that the Sabir attacked the Saragur, Urog and Unogur tribes in 461 AD, forcing them across the Volga, as a result of having themselves been attacked by the "Avars". In 515 "they advertised their power in a huge raid south of the Caucasus, in which they attacked Iranian and Byzantine lands with scrupulous impartiality".[2] They eventually came into allegiance with Persia.
    In 552 the Sabirs, previously allied with Sassanid Persia, switched their allegiance to the Byzantines and invaded the Caucasus. Soon afterwards, they were conquered first by the Avars and later by the Göktürks. By the 700s they largely vanish from the historical record; probably being assimilated into the Khazars and Bulgars.
    The Byzantine document, De Administrando Imperio mentions that the Tourkoi (the Byzantine name for Magyars) were formerly known as Sabartoi asphaloi. This name is generally considered to mean "firm, reliable Sabir". However, Byzantine documents normally refer to Sabirs as Sabiroi.
    Some modern historians speculate that a Sabir tribe or faction, called Suars, may have resettled in the Middle Volga region, where they later merged with Volga Bulgarians. Indeed, one of the foremost cities of Volga Bulgaria was called Suar or Suwar. Today, some Chuvash historians postulate that their nation is partially descended from Sabirs.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabir_people

    Hunish Sabirs or Sabiri are probably same people as Serboi of Ptolomei in Asian Sarmatica...
    they are Serians who live in Caspian mountains unguarded from Sarmatians in Seneca's time...
    neighbouring Hunnic Kutrigur, Utrigur and Onogur people are in my opinion all Hurian derived people... same as Croats are likely Hurian derived people...





    but there are in Seneca's time (1st century AD) also Serians/Seres who live in Europe around Danube...
    and before them Serres people in ancient Greece upon mount Athos - mentioned by Aristotle as known for their longevity....

    Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

    from Serres who dwell upon mount Athos comes town Serres/Serai in Greek or Ser in Serbian
    this town in Greece was medieval capital of Serb tsar Dusan and is distinguished from surrounding by high haplogroup I percentage

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

    state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavic people come from it, says Bavarian geographer...


    Serians of Asia include Serres who live in Serica (northwest China) and produce silk, as well as
    arc from China (serica) to India,,,, Serians from this arc are very likely Pasthun Sarbans of today.....

    Serians in 6th century Europe are probably Scirians in Bavaria and Sorabi north of them....
    their neighbours are Heruli....Heruli is another tribal name derived from Hurian...
    Scirians and Heruli regarding their positions could be ancestor of today Serbs and Croats as this is location that matches the one from which they came to Balkan as written in book De administrando imperio

    http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false

    could it be that originally Serians are I2a2, and Hurians are R1a?

    e.g. Heruls on map above match white Croatia and also hotspot of R1a in south Poland
    note also lack of R1a in Caspian highlands where Sabirs/Serboi or Serians of Caspian highlands lived...



    Serrai/Serres area is hotspot of I in Greece (36%) ....Scirians might be cause of I2a2 hotspots in Bohemia from which Serbs came to Balkan... I2a2 is present in area where used to live Sabirs/Serboi... Chuvash people claim descend from Sabirs...it would be interesting to see their genetics... hotspot of I2a in Kurds in Asia minor is perhaps due to Cimmerians as it matches their location and supposed settlement in Cappadocia...tribal name Kurds might have same origin as Serbs, Sabirs, Serboi, Sarbans, Sherdana (sea peoples - there is place named after them Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt)...

    Last edited by how yes no 2; 16-03-11 at 03:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan
    Serres was capital of Dusan????????
    comes from Sirris not serians an Anciennt Persian Godess, the older Pelasgic name of Godess Demeter
    midlle eastern Godess, Remember Serres was the Boarder of Greeks and Persians
    the Darnakes

    as infact that I in Serres is connected with AGrinion, Agrianes Thracians etc

    remember Paeon was son of Agrios, Endymion etc
    Paeoni were Tracian, and Serres area and Syntike are considered Thracians,
    if you can find a more Data mutation in Agrinion that could help you on who the thracians
    (for me I people) were, comparing with Serres .

    REad Herodotus E Siropaiones and Persians, Area Dari-naka (Darius Land)

    http://www.darnakas.gr/darnakasonomasia.htm

    and also find who were Trivoli people (trivoli is thorn plant) (Tribali of Dusan)
    Besides Darnakochoria rea the virb eat is chlap-akias0 from Hleb-Hlap = Bread,
    their dialect is very ancient and have mainly Greek-Aeolic but Thracian and Prsian words also plenty, and many unknown
    they lived isolated marry only tribe members as pomaks do in Greece.
    remember that Greek pomaks are genetically different that Bulgarian pomaks

    as in Fact the Thracian name for Phylakai town is Surdi - Serdi (both mean guardians)
    and town SerVia and next town is Gullea (Kulla - kale - Kelli) (fiortress)
    surdi serdi curdi etc means guardians, Calla - Celli- means fortress that is known,

    But for me it would be very interesting to find and compare Agrinion and east GR Makedonia I people (M-?? Dys etc)

    besides Thracians in Gr Magnesia area Sesklo - Dimini before Pelasgians arrival had Linear pottery from 7000 Bc which means that pottery culture expand north in Danube as Thracians moved north,
    remember Tharseis (thracians) is people that live that lived in Balkans and north before Javans (Yunans -Iayan - Pelasgic people)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo

    it is interesting the change from Linear to Cardium, from Thracian to Pelasgic as the fact that Europe was invaded from south to North and not from North to south as many claim

    The culture of Sesklo is crucial in the expansion of Neolithic into Europe. Dating and research points to the influence of this culture to other Balcanic (Karanovo I-II and Starčevo-Körös) which seem to originate here, and will be these which will stimulate the birth of the important Danubian Neolithic current. Also, it is thought[citation needed] that the differentiated settlements of pre-Sesklo can be, at least partly, responsible for the origin of the Mediterranean Neolithic (Cardium pottery). So it can be said that, with some geographically isolated exceptions, European Neolithic seem to originate here: in the Thessalia of Sesklo


    The "invasion theory" states that the Sesklo culture lasted more than one full millennium up until 5000 BC when it was violently conquered by people of the
    Dimini culture. The Dimini culture in this theory is considered different from that found at Sesklo.

    4800 Bc few centuries after Pelasgic invasion (est 5500 BC)

    so I people were in Balkans much Before 7000 BC

    it is obvius that Thracians +Pelasgic made Greek culture and language
    and Thracians + celts make Illyricum culture
    Thracians +baltic make Slavic language (old church slavonic)
    and area of daci and Bulgaria Kept more the old Thracian, than Greece and Illyricum
    the many attempts to put Greek to slavic languages has to do that is connected from ancienty,
    that is because of Thracians, who for me were a proto-slavic language, and a proto Greek language
    I gave many examples in many other posts
    Last edited by iapetoc; 16-03-11 at 12:36.

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    Slavic people are pretty sure Venetic in origin... not just because Jordanes said so...see:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...949#post367949
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...956#post367956
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...958#post367958

    in addition to Veneti,
    Pannonians and Thracians/Dacians should be investigated regarding origin of proto-Slavic people...

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    Post Don't forget the core Western Slavs

    How yes no:

    The core Slavic population - in terms of language, culture, ethnic consciousness - are people of Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, Belorus and Western Ukraine. R1a is clearly a dominant Y-DNA there. I understand your points about South Slavs and I2a2 - and their descent from one of the ice age refuges. But it seems to me that it is an accepted historical fact that the original tribes speaking Slavic languages came from the northern Carpathian, Visla lowlands and east towards Belarus and Dnieper river.

    I am also familiar with Safarik's writings in the 19th century. He speculated that the tribal name Srb (Serbian) was one of the original terms by which the Slavs self-identified. One of them, but not the only one. The others that he considered likely were: Czech, Lech, Polan, ... The term Srb is still very widespread among Slavic nations - there are Sorbs (Srbi) in south-eastern Germany, there are numerous proper names that use Srb, and the use of consonant "r" as a middle sound is quite typical of Slavic proper names (see Praha, Brno, Trnava, Trencin, ....).

    But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.

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    Slavic nations as we see them today are clearly I2a2 Dinaric +R1a1 mix. Ethnogenesis of Slavs were long process and various peoples were part of that.
    It is clear that core Slavic homeland (Pripyat) is not only the highest freqency I2a2 region on the east, but also place where first and original Slavic hydronims appeared.
    "Considering Ptolemy's Ouenedai and their location along the Baltic sea, a German linguist, Alexander M. Schenker, underlines that the vocabulary of the Slavic languages shows no evidence that the early Slavs were exposed to the sea. Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology and even lacked a word for amber which was the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs.[18]. Schenker's conclusion is supported by the fact that to the east of the Ouenedai, Ptolemy mentions two further tribes called Stauanoi and Souobenoi, both of which have been interpreted as possibly the oldest historical attestations of Slavs."
    So there was Venedi (R1a1) on the northwestern direction from proto Slavs (I2a2). Synthesis of this two populations creeated a people of Slavs in the first centuries AD. Some of Slavic nations like Poles or Lusatian Serbs have more Venedic (R1a1) component, and others like Serbs(I2a2) more Slavic component. It is well known fact that western Slavs are known by the name Wends and south Slavs by the name Sklavenoi.
    And about Antes, third group of Slavic peoples.
    "The Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi on the northern bank of the Danube somewhat upstream of its mouth, and the Venadi Sarmatae along the Baltic coast."
    So the Antes were probably some southern part of Venedi and closer to them (which means R1a1) than to Sklavenoi (South Slavs (I2a2)).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckovsky View Post
    But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.
    I do not say there was no R1a at all in early Slavs....some of Slavic tribes were R1a dominant like Vislanes and Croats...

    From the 1st century and possibly earlier, the Vistulans (also known as the Vislanes), were part of the Carpian Tribe, which got its name from the area that they lived in, which was beside the Carpathian Mountain Range. In the 9th century, Vistulans created a tribal state, with major centers in Kraków, Wiślica, Sandomierz, and Stradów.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistulans

    Vislanes are thus Carpi, which may be about Croats....

    I claim I2a2 was dominant in early Slavs because it shows clear match with location and directions of spread of early Slavs....

    R1a doesnot show such a correlation also because there were many other R1a people around



    500 AD


    700 AD


    R1a hotspots match Vislanes (Carpi in origin), Croats (also Carpi in origin?), Balts, and Turkic Avars, Bulgars, Oghurs, Huns, Khazars...

    my guess is that those are mostly Scythian people..... there are solid theories that relate proto-Croats with Bulgars and Oghur people...so even Croat R1a can easily be Scythian in origin...

    Sarmatians do not fit in R1a because locations of Alans and in fact hole Asian Sarmatia seems to lack R1a...and their other area of influence is Ukraine that is I2a2 hotspot...

    as for Venedi, I am convinced that they origin from Veneti and that Veneti were dominantly I2a2 people...some clues for this are I2a* found only in locations of Britanny Veneti and Adriatic Veneti....also in Capadocia bellow Paphlagonia (from where Eneti were expelled in times around Trojan wars due to their conquest with Cimmerians) is I2a island... this island of I2a2 is probably settlement of Cimmerians (as there are historical records indicating settlement of Cimmerians in Capadocia) and Cimmerians may easily be origin of later Sarmatians... which effectively means that Sarmatians and Veneti were from same stock... confirmation for this is that Antes are from same Veneti stock (their tribal name is clear derivation from Eneti) and also Sarmatians and fitting I2a2 hotspot... sure Venedi/Veneti/Antes had some R1a... but that is in my opinion from assimilated Scythians while core of early Slavs was Venetic I2a2 people

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    interesting thread regarding Slavic origin...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26233

    btw. where Gomer/Cimmerians are on map showing world known to Hebrews is now I2a island in Asia minor
    Gomer is son of Japhet and thought to be ancestor of Germanic people....this shows that name Germanic was originally applied to all haplogroup I people....
    One of Gomer's sons is Riphat... map puts Riphat in Paphlagonia ...in location of Eneti.... now if Gomer were haplogroup I peoploe that match island of I2a now in Asia minor, what would be people who originate from Riphat the son of Gomer?




    Besides, we know that early Slavs are of Veneti race (Jordanes) and that Slavs origin from Japhet (Russian primary chronicle)

    note tribal name Rosch among Schytians... and how neither Rosch nor Scythians are marked as Japhet's line..... also Taurus that matches R1a spread in Asia minor is not marked as originating of any of 3 sons of Noah...thus, story of Noah's sons is probably related to people from IJ haplogroups... perhaps R1a and R1b lived in times of flood probably northern from middle east area where the story probably originated...

    anyway, Taurus being not Japhet and also correlating with spread of R1a....
    makes me wonder if Taurus is name related to Hurians? because Hurians are in my theory proto-Croats

    The Hurro-Urartian languages are an extinct language family of the Ancient Near East, comprising only two known languages: Hurrian and Urartian, both of which were spoken in the Taurus mountains area.
    Hurro-Urartian was ergative-agglutinative. It was neither related to the Semitic or Indo-European language families of the region.
    Proponents of linguistic macrofamilies have grouped Hurro-Urartian as part of an "Alarodian" phylum, together with Northeast Caucasian and further as "Macro-Caucasian", but these theories are without support in mainstream linguistics.[1]
    Hurrian was the language of the Hurrians (occasionally called "Hurrites"), a people who spread to northern Mesopotamia probably coming from the Caucasus starting from 2500 BC[citation needed], and whose apogee was the kingdom of Mitanni (1450–1270 BC). The language was probably extinct by 1000 BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages




    interesting question is whether Slavic language is originally language of some R1a people, some I2a2 people or some mix of the two....... I think it was language of I2a2 people but was passed to R1a people in distant past in area of Asia minor...

    as for proto-Serbs..interesting clue is three-finger salute used by Serbs.... though this salute was reintroduced in recent times in 1990s it was inspired by picture from 19th century of famous painter Paja Jovanovic about gathering of people on which decision about uprising against Turks was made... so this salute might have longer history in Serbian tradition...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

    a wild guess is that it might have originally been of same origin as this one related to Thracian/Phrygian God Sabazios... or Thracian horseman.....now, Thracian /Phrygian God...this is where I2a spread leads to from Eneti area of Paphlagonia and Cimmerian/Gomer area of Cappadocia...to Phrygia and Thrace....

    bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios



    Sabazios (Ancient Greek: Σαβάζιος) is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the -zios element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of Latin deus ('god') and Greek Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
    ...
    It seems likely that the migrating Phrygians brought Sabazios with them when they settled in Anatolia in the early first millennium BCE, and that the god's origins are to be looked for in Macedonia and Thrace. The recently discovered ancient sanctuary of Perperikon in eastern Thrace is believed to be that of Sabazios. The Macedonians were also noted horsemen, horse-breeders and horse-worshippers up to the time of Philip II, whose name signifies "lover of horses".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

    clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

    also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

    sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
    ..
    suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

    thus, freedom was always very important to Serbs...
    btw. "slobodni" = free in Slavic thus Sloveni = slo(bodni) + veni
    (Veni being Veneti/Venedi tribal name, also root word of Finish name for Russians - Venäläiset)


    Much later, the Byzantine Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states
    "Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]
    ...
    More "rider god" steles are at the Burdur Museum, in Turkey. Under the Roman Emperor Gordian III the god on horseback appears on coins minted at Tlos, in neighboring Lycia, and at Istrus, in the province of Lower Moesia, between Thrace and the Danube. It is generally thought that the young emperor's grandfather came from an Anatolian family, because of his unusual cognomen, Gordianus.[4] The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]
    now, sculpture of this horseman God are found among Celts, in Lycia and upper Moesia.....possible Lycia connection with proto-Serb I have indicated before ( http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...056#post367056 )..... and modern Serbs were named Triballi by some Byzantine sources.. Celtic link is possible via Scordisci...as upper Moesia between Danube and Thrace is where Triballi and Scordisci are...... also this area of upper Moesia is area where we find culture of of Thraco-Cimmerians and not Thrace.....

    so, I think that proto-Serbs were I2a Cimmerians and proto-Slavs was about wider term Venetic people...

    again, these are location of Thraco-Cimmerian findings



    and these are early Slavs



    now, look at this curiosity:

    Among Serb opponents in the Yugoslav wars – Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians – the three-finger salute is usually perceived as provocation, especially when directed at them personally.[citation needed] In response, their forces used the V sign as a victory/defiance sign during the war.[citation needed]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

    In Croatia, the V sign represents the World War II-era Nazi movement called the Ustase. Extending two fingers into the V sign resembles the letter U, for Ustase.
    During the Yugoslav Wars, Croatian troops and paramilitary militia used the sign as a greeting or an informal salute or menacing gesture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign

    what is V sign than bull horns, sign of Taurus people or Hurians/Hurites?
    and why would extra finger be offensive?

    lol, this is funny, what is 3-finger salute than bull (V sign) with big "phallus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus) ... it's a way to say, perhaps you are bull as you show V sign, but I am real male bull...

    why I got this idea? well, look again at thumb of 3-finger salute bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios... and why bull?

    Seri and Huri are two mythical bulls...they represent Serians and Hurrians...this division gives much later Serbs and Croats, but I guess also Germanic Sciri and Hirri (later Heruli?)... perhaps also Cimbri and Helvetti... in Balkan Celtic/Thracian Scordisci/Serdi and Illyrian Autoriatae
    Serians are I2a people (also I2a1 and I2ab), Hurians are R1a (there are other R1a people though)
    Turkic Oghurs are just Ak (turkic for west) + Hur = west Hurians ...similarly Hunnogur mentioned by Jordanes are Hunnish Hurians...

    The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

    look at this post for better explanation
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...278#post365278


    let me take this 3 finger / 2 finger distinction to earlier times and see about possible earlier meanings.....

    it was suggested that Sherdana are distinguished from related sea people with bull horn helmets as they have sign in the middle of bull horns...
    example Sherdana (people after whom lake in Egypt is named Serbonian bog / Serbonis / Sirbonis)



    some related sea peoples probably Lukka (Lycian)


    this sign that Sherdana wear between bull horns could have initially been same in origin as sign carried by Isis...

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...030#post365030

    look at sign carried by Isis and compare it with the one of Sherdana



    keep in mind that it is suggested that ancient Macedonians were also originally "horseman" or Sabazios worshipers... and that Sarapis is introduced as God with spread of empire of ancient Macedonians

    Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis


    why?
    because myth of Sabazios was matched to Oziris and to Hapis/Apis - bull deity....

    thus, Serapis came to existance...

    Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
    ...
    Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

    In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)

    Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 22-03-11 at 03:11.

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    Why Pripiat marshes?

    Iapodos/ How Yes No:

    The theory of Slavic origin described by you is in my view too complicated and large parts of it cannot be verified.

    Why Pripiat marshes? I have never understood why would many people always try to put the mythical Slavic homeland in the marshy and inaccessible area of Pripiat that was either unpopulated or very thinly populated until very recently. It is much more likely that the Slavic languages and tribal consciousness were originally from a much larger - and more livable - area of north Carpatians, Visla and Bug river valleys and probably some surrounding areas. Roughly the territories of today's eastern Poland, western Ukraine, northern Slovakia, and parts of Belarus.

    I agree that the original Slavic tribes lived inland. But there is a huge area in central-eastern Europe that was inhabited since the last ice age and is much more suitable for habitation. Pripyat marshes are not. Maybe some stragglers lived there (I2b,...), but it is not a likely homeland for any large tribal confederation. Unless, the original Slavs had supernatural procreation and assimilation powers, they had to come from a more suitable environment. And there were clearly more of them.

    What you say is also counter-intuitive. Given the large number of Slavs in modern Europe (up to 35% of European population), and given that fhas been the case for over a millenium, it is unlikely that a large, populous group like that had originated in a small, remote, uninhabitable area. The word Venedi is very widespread - it just means "stranger" in archaic proto-IE (like Celtic). Sometimes an explanation for a term found in many different places is that it means something to the surrounding people, not that the people with that name - or similar name - travelled around and are the same.

    Something similar is true about the term Srb (Serbian). Any Slavic speakers understands that Srb means something like "feisty, fighting, warrior, even angry", we still have a verb "srdit sa" that means "get angry, start fighting". So the term Srb can simply be a term for the warrior bands living among other less feisty neighbors. The term Pole is obvious: "field dwellers", Lech means is a tribal chief, Chech means people living in the mountains, Slovien means the ones speaking our langauge. It seems to me that the very generic term "Slovien" was originally a term that meant something like "our people, people like us", since they spoke same or similar languages. In other words "nashi" :), or like Suebi among Germans.

    That explains the R1a1 dominance in the Slavic homeland. It is likely that I2a were simply a remainder of the natives who lived there pre-Slav expansion. And that includes the Pripiat marshes. You cannot have the R1a1 dominance in the core Slavic regions without Slavs being largely descended from R1a1 forebears. I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckovsky View Post
    . I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.
    perhaps that holds for Russia that R1a is there marker of Slavic spread....but not in south Balkan...

    as I have shown on many indications in first few posts on this thread, Slavs in south Balkan are clearly distinguished from non-Slavs exclusively by I2a2
    while R1a is much more common among some non-Slavic people than in some Slavic people....

    perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Perhaps not

    "perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a"

    Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.

    Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.

    You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.

    Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.

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    first part taken from thread about Macedonia
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...551#post368551

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    now about the bull

    I mentioned that cause
    Bolos
    Bol
    Bo
    Bolinthros
    same BOL

    but muschar and telec
    meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
    the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
    and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos
    actually, there is word Vol/Vo in Serbia
    it is about ox

    while bull is "bik"
    it's about being male or not male bull
    distinction between V sign and 3-finger salute
    ....

    btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles
    Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology.
    Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...

    Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    In Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

    Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
    Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

    Anyway, Teshubs key enemy is Illuyanka - dragon like being from underworld, thus same as Veles...

    He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace. The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs. In the Hurrian schema, he was paired with Hebat the mother goddess; in the Hittite, with the sun goddess of Arinna—a cultus of great antiquity which may ultimately derive from the bull god and mother goddess worshipped at Çatalhöyük in the Neolithic era. Myths also exist of his conflict with the sea creature (possibly a snake or serpent) Hedammu (CTH 348). His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    son of Teshub is Sarruma...let's repeat just this part...
    His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka
    Sabazios is same as Sarruma? look at this part of text about Sabazios:
    The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

    Sabazios / Serbs .... Sarruma / Serians....
    this could be about nations...

    but then if Sabazios is about Serbs, who is dragon/snake Illuyanka?
    perhaps E-V13 Illyrians who were moving forward from middle East along south part of Asia minor accross previous Hurian-Serian spreads of R1a and I2a (previous Hati being R1b and perhaps some I or J haplogroup(s) )?

    According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians on the side of the Encheleans.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

    In Euripides' The Bacchae, Cadmus is given a prophecy by Dionysus whereby both he and his wife will be turned into snakes for a period before eventually being brought to live among the blest.

    In Phoenician, as well as Hebrew, the Semitic root qdm signifies "the east", the Levantine origin of "Kdm" himself, according to the Greek mythographers; the equation of Kadmos with the Semitic qdm was traced to a publication of 1646 by R. B. Edwards.[21] The name Kadmos has been thoroughly Hellenised.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

    and who is Veles/Volos?
    Bolos - Taurus area? (after being overwhelmed with E-V13 people)
    or Vlah (Roman people) as new historic time enemy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckovsky View Post
    Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.
    key hotspots of R1a are in Russia along Don, in south Poland (or in what was white Croatia) and in Baltic republics...in Hungary, it is central Hungary where Magyars settled....while not in east and west Hungary that cluster with Serb-Croats and Ukraine....
    non-Slavic Albanians of FYRM has 2x more R1a than Slavic Montenegro and roughly same as Serbs and Macedonians...while non-Slavic Macedonian greeks has twice more R1a than Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars...

    do you start to see my point now?


    Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.
    Slavs were invaders in Russia and Poland...

    core of their spread is east and central Ukraine
    in fact, Russian primary chronicle puts early Slavs in areas around Danube (Serbia, north Bulgaria, Hungary) and in Noricum, and claims that spread to Vistula came from those Danube areas after being pushed by Roman empire... mapping to previous people that would be Veneti derived people in Noricum, Pannonians in Hungary and Dalmatia, Triballi in upper Moesia and Scordisci/Serdi around Danube... now modern Serbs were in some Byzantine sources called Triballi...and relation to tribal name Scordisci/Serdi is obvious....

    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

    I2a2 is clear marker of Serbs with tribal name sharing same root as for I2a1 Sardinians, I1 Swedes, I1 and I2b Suebi...

    split between I1+ I2b and I2a2 explains easily split Germanic/Slavic languages...

    Bavarian geographer manuscript speaks of Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it... I have shown in first few post maps that make obvious clear match of spread of I2a2 with spread of early Slavs...while R1a shows nothing alike......and you try to convince me that spread of I2a2 that shows clear correlation with spread of early Slavs has nothing to do with spread of Slavs but is about previous people?

    Slavs are of Japhet race according to Russian primary chronicle... and we know that Gomer and thus haplogroup I is of Japhet race... sure you can say that Japhet had other sons except Gomer... but check time distance between split of branches of haplogroups...I doubt that there was tens of thousands of years between Japhet and some of his sons... very likely whole people derived from Noah story involves only IJ haplogroup...

    on other hand, according to Klyosov R1a is oldest in Serbia and south Siberia..which may indicate that proto-Serbs were origianaly R1a people and original R1a people...also Sorbs are most R1a dominant people in Europe..

    You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.
    nope, as I stated in this thread the theory about R1a being Slavic originally is much more questionable...

    and theories pushed of R1a as Aryans and PIE people...
    brief look on spread of R1a shows that non-IE Etruscans had R1a as dominant... and ancient Macedonians...and also non-IE Magyars... and non-IE Scythians and very likely also Turkic people such as Oghurs, Khazars... also there is R1a in Vikings...

    so, R1a cannot be taken as exclusively Slavic marker nor as exclusive Slavic marker...a part of it might have been in early Slavs.... and that's all...early Slavs have clear I2a2 signature as I have explained in first few posts...

    Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.
    my theories are search for truth....
    R1a Aryan-Slavic-PIE theory is search for validation...
    in ancient past, R1a is likely marker for Scythians....
    whether Scythians were proto-Slavs is hard to say...
    I think not...

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    hmmm
    seems like How Yes No find The Creco Aryan Approach, which fits better withancient civilizations, and overpass the Kurgan theory that fits modern times,
    seems like genetic searches proves the Greco aryan

    According that
    G is the far ancient proto aryan speaking,
    G gave language and culture to I and J and R1b of minor asia
    J dna moved to levant and from them to mediterrean as pelasgic etrurian naval
    I dna moved to Balkans as Thracian and from there spread North by foot
    an ancient R1a is different than medieval R1a ?
    I haven't found a good R1a explanation for Greece and Balkans

    probably some of them were hunters of a Holy animal
    Like Vikings moved to Iceland in search for holy Fish Salmon
    some others were after Aurochs
    The aurochs or urus (Bos primigenius), the ancestor of domestic cattle, was a type of huge wild cattle which inhabited Europe, Asia and North Africa, but is now extinct; it survived in Europe until 1627.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

    auroch fits suitable with greek-pelasgic tauros(h) and latin taurus
    Aurochs were also known to have very aggressive temperaments and killing one was seen as a great act of courage in ancient cultures (bullfights)
    The Swiss canton Uri was actually named after this animal species.
    Uri - Churi etc
    the paradise Urim is a phrase that Cristians say for happy times
    the name Bos - auroch Bos is after Greek-Thracian Βους of koine, from ancient Bol-inthros,
    probably there was a tribe or a nation that hunt them, as Indians the american Bisson
    but i can not connect it with any Dna,
    But crimea area had also name Taurica means auroch land, and argonauts had a bulls head trade mark in sails as good luck,
    and many sacrifices as much as 100 bulls in a time, in troyan wars


    Now back to theme, I believe that I Dna is the aryan branch that spread in inland Europe before, create cultures, upon which later R1a rulers came, so R1a accepted mainly local language and spread its own words, creating new languages,
    the many devastasions of the roman empire fall simply was a fast but before, a connection of I Dna people (proto-slavic speaking) with R1a (baltic) before gothic movements and vikings invasions in Ucraine create a culture that connects linguistic both, in fact the linguistic truth is after Cyrill and Method who unify better differences, and create a Balto-slavic koine which is an artificial language upon living languages, just to purify differences, of older tribals mate, sharing same land and culture.

    so for me, although I accepted before the R1a are the slav people, slavic language is the I2 dna language and R1a speakers were more baltic,
    and I still believe that thracian is a pre and proto slavic

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    Just a few questions on the slavs as I find the issue of language to use as a fact on a races heritage very silly.

    Q1. Is the slavic serbian language 100% the same as the slavic language of Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovenian, Slovak, Poland , Russia etc etc etc? If not then we can assume that as the slavs entered into territory foreign to them , the slavs that entered, bulgaria or damatia etc etc would have accepted into their vocabulary hundreds of words from the area they settled.
    This is the most logical answer. So to say that a slavic word is the same as one from a region means that the slavs where here a long time OR even worse still that they where originally slavs.

    An example, a landlocked race who migrates to an area by the ocean and tasty salty water would have taken the name of this ocean from the local people they met.

    This brings me to the Illyrian, Venetic, Trojan, Thracian, Epirote, Macedonian, Dardanian, Paeonian, odyssian to name a few , peoples that originated in the balkans and italy. These people where the original people.
    To say any a slavic in the ancient times is pure speculation.

    In the map of a previous post , the map noted as 500AD , we can see the Ostrogoth control of the italy and ancient illyria, this is where the I2a2 came from, and this is where the slavs inherited this DNA.

    Q2. How many people in percentage and for how long ( generations)a period does it take to accept a DNA into ones society/race?

    Q3. Let us not use linguistics to determine once race be it modern times or ancient times or else we can say the veneti are french as in apple in French is pom, in venetian its pomo and in Italian its mela. or that the English are veneti for using the venetian word of arsenale ( arsenal) or balot ( ballot) to name a few

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    I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic.
    The Slavonic was used for translation of the holy books and permitted orthodox christianism has spread through the Slavic speaking countries starting from X c.

    Regarding the Thracian words entering the Bulgarian - from the few words known to be Thracian - I can't see ANY relation at all with the Bulgarian.
    We must be very careful about any research trying to prove the contrary because since the communist era some enthusiastic Bulgarian authors are trying to prove relation with the mighty Thracians to embellish the national identity of Bulgarians.

    Of course many Latin and Greek words entered the Bulgarian language probably since the VII c and later. Did they trough assimilation of local inhabitants or from the vicinity of the East Roman Empire? It's very hard to tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Just a few questions on the slavs as I find the issue of language to use as a fact on a races heritage very silly.

    Q1. Is the slavic serbian language 100% the same as the slavic language of Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovenian, Slovak, Poland , Russia etc etc etc? If not then we can assume that as the slavs entered into territory foreign to them , the slavs that entered, bulgaria or damatia etc etc would have accepted into their vocabulary hundreds of words from the area they settled.
    This is the most logical answer. So to say that a slavic word is the same as one from a region means that the slavs where here a long time OR even worse still that they where originally slavs.

    An example, a landlocked race who migrates to an area by the ocean and tasty salty water would have taken the name of this ocean from the local people they met.

    This brings me to the Illyrian, Venetic, Trojan, Thracian, Epirote, Macedonian, Dardanian, Paeonian, odyssian to name a few , peoples that originated in the balkans and italy. These people where the original people.
    To say any a slavic in the ancient times is pure speculation.

    In the map of a previous post , the map noted as 500AD , we can see the Ostrogoth control of the italy and ancient illyria, this is where the I2a2 came from, and this is where the slavs inherited this DNA.

    Q2. How many people in percentage and for how long ( generations)a period does it take to accept a DNA into ones society/race?

    Q3. Let us not use linguistics to determine once race be it modern times or ancient times or else we can say the veneti are french as in apple in French is pom, in venetian its pomo and in Italian its mela. or that the English are veneti for using the venetian word of arsenale ( arsenal) or balot ( ballot) to name a few
    to first question is a remarkable,
    in Bulgaria the Balkars that invade are considered Huns - Ogurs
    not a massive slavic invasion is mentioned in Bulgaria, as it is mentioned in Serbia,
    R1a which is considered slavic Dna is very small in south slavic to change language in 200 years from invasions times to Cyrill & Method times,
    But in Bu;garia which is considered Slavic, as also in Romania we find thracian words, that can be considred as proto-slavic, as also the Dinaric-Illyrian ancient languages,

    Probably From Herodotus times perhaps but surely in Strabon times I2 Dna people who spoke dialects of Thracian or Venedi lived next to R1a people (clear slavic Dna but with language more baltic), >700 years are enough to create dialects that are based in both languages.
    so when Cyrill & method create the Alphabet also create a language that can be understood by both, due to co-exist, the balto-slavic,
    the new language of cyrill and method was imported to every slavic and baltic speaking nations when accepted christianity,
    that is why in Bulgaria where mainly entered the Balkars (huns) speak a dialect of slavic, before christianity, they had pre-slavic language (south Thracian dialect or remnants from Veneti walk through) and after they accepted the baltic elements and became more slavic in area were slavic invasions are not to be mentioned as wide devastation,
    that means that cyrill & method Bible was a purification of ex slavic and baltic to mainly a new language common,
    when a written language exists, linguists and rulers and people use the written and do not assimilate foreign,
    it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.
    so probably slavic R1a people lived, from strabo times, and perhaps before from Herodotus time, next each other with I2 people in north of Carpathia mt

    the second part nations you say are the Pelasgians, pelasgians are considered Aryans non IE, pelasgian language relics can be found mainly in Greek, but also in Latin due to Etruscans, etc,
    the 3rd and the Key is thracians.
    probably thracians lived from ucraine to Greece,
    Greek language koine is a mix of Thracian Pelasgian and Hettit-Luwan-Anatolian,
    now about Venedi people I am not sure, and not familiar, but I know that they moved to areas of today Hungary Before Huns invasions, from areas of today slovenia, but they mainly passed balkans in ancient times from minor asia,
    i don't want to say anything more cause i m not familiar to their story and language,

    sorry i haven't understand your question,
    dna is not accepted by a society, language religion, customs are accepted,
    the more years and the more common memory, the more is accepted,
    as an example the grinco in spainish, means foreigner, but comes from Greek colonization times, when the Iberians met the Greeks and the word Grinco is simmilar to stranger, (grico are the Greeks in Magna Grecia)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moesian View Post
    I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic.
    The Slavonic was used for translation of the holy books and permitted orthodox christianism has spread through the Slavic speaking countries starting from X c.

    Regarding the Thracian words entering the Bulgarian - from the few words known to be Thracian - I can't see ANY relation at all with the Bulgarian.
    We must be very careful about any research trying to prove the contrary because since the communist era some enthusiastic Bulgarian authors are trying to prove relation with the mighty Thracians to embellish the national identity of Bulgarians.

    Of course many Latin and Greek words entered the Bulgarian language probably since the VII c and later. Did they trough assimilation of local inhabitants or from the vicinity of the East Roman Empire? It's very hard to tell.

    yes but old church slavonic is based upon slavic Koine of Cyrill,
    to understand what I say, slavic people had Bible from 800 Bc in a simmilar to their own language although artificial by 2 monks, when Germans had in 1500 AD by M. Luther, when nations have written words they assimilate and they learn them if they sound familiar to them, so older elements are going to be lost,
    as an example word Bog is same to all slavic,
    we don't know if serbians had exact the word Bog, and polland also, and ucraine also,
    before cyrill, cause they might use words like Vog, Bogu, Boka etc,
    but after cyrill all use Bog,

    Now about ancient Thracian, I know the difference of Daci-Moesians with Bulgarians and Greeks, in ancient thracian relicks like rings we found Greek alphabet, but not greek words, like the ring, the ring has another translation in dacian-thracian, another in Greek (polisteneas = Πολις τε Νεας means towns and harbour or ships)

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erovo_ring.jpg

    as also the word Βουνο or Σβουνιο (sVunio)which according greeks is the thracian word for mountain etc, the ending toponyms of -essa greek or -ova daco-romanian -ica bulg cant help to find thracian origin language,
    But thracians were from peloponese and minor asia (Phrygians) to Hungary and even far of ucraine (taurica) even north of Persia (massagaete), Not only in balkans. Even in 20th century the isolated thracians of Greece call Fyrom Trivoli (acient Tribaldi) and the Varna Bulgarians drisianous (Odrysse),
    so any claim that a nation is pure Thracian for me is unaccepted, cause thracian language and culture was wide spread all over balkans and east europe, but the strongest Thracian area is among Fyrom Serbia Greece Bulgaria and south Romania. cause the turkish area have changed to turkish and kept only its dances and music from ancient thracian

    the area that Epigoni named and ruled Thracia is not the area of ancient Thracian expansion, and surely we don't know if that area, is the last speaking Thracian, or the proto Thracian states,
    simply when herodotus says about Thracians the biggest nation after Indians (greater than persians) surely does not mean the duridanov's thracia, or simply Dacia, but should be a wider area and poppulus enough, probably east of dinaric alpes and from Greece to north of carpathia, areas mainly inhabited by I YDNA and low R1a,
    The daci-moesi approach to ancient Thracian is not wrong, simply it quides us more to illyricum words than minor asian myssian, it is difficult a more focusing approach and neads life time works and comparisons of word roots,
    But as a fact we know that Daci-thracian are mainly affected by latin, while south-Thracian by pellasgic-anatolian and makes problem more difficult

    Besides in another post of mime I spoke about Mycenae and Myenae
    4 Mycenae (Mycenae, Myssenae, Mossienae, Makenae) peloponese, myssia moeasia makedonia
    and another in west should exist but I dont know where, so create the sign of Deplic 3ε of 5 mycenae and 9 nine Minyans (5 lands 9 waters)

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