Alexander the great

Noman said:
He had blonde hair so he was probably not e1b, which is undoubtedly a legacy of the huge number of jews to move to constantinople in byzantine times. The J2 was probably mostly settled there during ottoman empire times, especially the ciscassians and huge amounts of other georgian and crimean peoples, who were used to police the empire and especially the christians.

The r1as came down to invade the pre-classic greeks, before that they were just barbarians. So since he's blonde then I will go with I, though g or another possibility that could be the case.
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What? E-V13 was in Europe in the Neolithic Age and we have the adna to prove it. Depending on whose dating you're using, they could have been in the Balkans in the Mesolithic. Other subclades of "E1b" could have been in Iberia in the Mesolithic era as well.

As for distributions in Europe, different clades have different distributions, like E-M81 in Spain, or E-V13 in Italy. Jews have a specific clade, which is also found in the Middle East.

That Cohen haplotype thing was a bust too...they found it all over the Levant.

Goodness knows, I'm not always a Wikipedia fan, but you can at least get a general idea from there.
Or look at the map here at eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E1b1b

We haven't found adna that is J2 yet, so we don't know when it entered Europe, but the late Neolithic or the Metal Ages are a good bet. (If it was Neolithic you would think it would have turned up in one of the Neolithic sites by now.) The studies on Crete are interesting from this perspective. Also, you have to look at J2a versus J2b.

There also isn't a direct y dna phenotype correlation. Phenotypic traits (in the sense that most people think of them) aren't found in the y snps but in your autosomes. And in terms of pigmentation, there aren't all that many of them. It's a toss of the dice, although light eyes for example, are recessive, so you have to consider that as well. It has to be in the paternal and maternal lineages as well. In my husband's family, G2a, you have blonde blue-eyed people and very stereotypically Mediterranean looking people, and yet the y dna is identical. You just can't draw these kinds of strict parallels, especially not by the time you got to the classical era.
 
Angela said:
What? E-V13 was in Europe in the Neolithic Age and we have the adna to prove it. Depending on whose dating you're using, they could have been in the Balkans in the Mesolithic. Other subclades of "E1b" could have been in Iberia in the Mesolithic era as well.

As for distributions in Europe, different clades have different distributions, like E-M81 in Spain, or E-V13 in Italy. Jews have a specific clade, which is also found in the Middle East.

That Cohen haplotype thing was a bust too...they found it all over the Levant.

Goodness knows, I'm not always a Wikipedia fan, but you can at least get a general idea from there.
Or look at the map here at eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E1b1b

We haven't found adna that is J2 yet, so we don't know when it entered Europe, but the late Neolithic or the Metal Ages are a good bet. (If it was Neolithic you would think it would have turned up in one of the Neolithic sites by now.) The studies on Crete are interesting from this perspective. Also, you have to look at J2a versus J2b.

There also isn't a direct y dna phenotype correlation. Phenotypic traits (in the sense that most people think of them) aren't found in the y snps but in your autosomes. And in terms of pigmentation, there aren't all that many of them. It's a toss of the dice, although light eyes for example, are recessive, so you have to consider that as well. It has to be in the paternal and maternal lineages as well. In my husband's family, G2a, you have blonde blue-eyed people and very stereotypically Mediterranean looking people, and yet the y dna is identical. You just can't draw these kinds of strict parallels, especially not by the time you got to the classical era.
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G is probably where blue eyes originate, so I don't know why you find this fact surprising.

Sorry but not this same nonsense again. Technically anybody on earth could have blue eyes, but it's not going to come from e1b without washing out many levels because that's not where they come from. If you look at otto von hapsburg, and look at hitler, and look at einstein and go look at the "noric" people that Sile was linking to you will see it's all very similar people even in modern times. Fact is ancient people didn't mix around, jews were the first to mix around in large areas of the world without being simply wiped out or wiping everyone else out.

They also outnumbered the greeks in constantinople when it fell so how the heck are there supposed to be no people with jewish dna in greece? What a joke. And modal haplotype is not a joke, there's apostate jews everywhere jews ever lived. It lines up exactly with what it should be. The samaritan priests were e1b instead, go read about samaritans and afro asiatics before you talk about blue eyed semetics. There's lots and lots of both types of these jews in anatolia and NE africa (and even more apostates).

Ancient Macedonians aren't some multicultural amalgum like Italy, though. And he was not some standout but that was a common look of his people. Also they were NOT related to the southern Greeks! So, we can eliminate all the really dumb ideas right off the bat (and the people who don't have these basic facts, maybe you should read a little on the basics before coming up with crazy theories). He's just not of mideast farmer stock that entered europe early on, not the "greek" j2 even if that were even remotely possible as candiate for classic greeks.

And where did they fit in exactly, if they did exist there all along? There's never been any artifact of such a people, such people have never used cremation and there's a hundred other things that just make this ridiculous. Ancient people didn't move around singly in ancient times either. They somehow survived several wipings out of greece and didn't get affected!

So we have a group with quite a few blonde people with blue eyes. Basically we have slavs or nords. The r1a people were just discovering the exciting possibilities of iron age weapons and the descriptions and skulls don't look slavic in the least but nordic instead, we can probably rule them out.

Since we have endless nordic type artifacts and skulls for both macedonia and pre-classic greece, then I will go with the only remaining option which also lines up with the archaelogy. So then maybe the macedonians were also the preclassic greeks or some related group, who were all nordic in origin. The classic greeks who claimed to be retaking their homeland said much the same thing. Other option, r1a, I guess means they helped to retake greece (I guess from nordics) but they didn't join into society of greece for some reason. Which is possible too but seems a little strange.
 
They have subgroups of j2a who were born in Crete, so a lot of Greek J2a is deffinitely old there, not from Turks. E v-13 is neolithic in the Balkans as well, and there was no Judaism in the Neolithic. The puzzling thing is the Nordic skulls in Macedonia and Northern Greece, which for me is not puzzling at all because they are the Illyrians and Thracians, who were half nordic. The proof is I1, I2b, and various western downstream R1b-s found in that area. These represent one of the Indo-European groups of immigrants, coming in the Bronze Age. So Alexander was half-nordic autosomally, but his y-group could have very well been E1b1b or J2, and who knows maybe even a group that is Persian or Phoenician...
 
kamani said:
They have subgroups of j2a who were born in Crete, so a lot of Greek J2a is deffinitely old there, not from Turks.
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I am not sure that's enough to say this is what classic greeks are. I don't think so. Cretans aren't greeks. Maybe crete is who they "take back" pre-classic greece from, not sure if that makes sense or not. But at any rate the greeks aren't the macedonians.

Not sure it's enough to say it can't come from crimea, either. Not all that j2 is greek specific either.

E v-13 is neolithic in the Balkans as well, and there was no Judaism in the Neolithic.
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The jewish samaritan form IS the neolithic form, and they spread it around everywhere they go. It's not the black african form (though that is in there as well, with basically everything they have encountered over 4000 years of wandering). It's not originally a black african dna in any way, anyhow, but a levantine one. The Es are not originally black they just conquered/wandered into africa and soaked up the darker genes over time.

Jews also have j2a, and a little of everything really.

Also I am sure some comes from the catalan mercenaries and of course arabs, looking at the haplomap. It's got a decent spread on the whole mediterranean and obviously most of it comes recently as it's almost all coastal.

Considering that greeks won't even acknowledge the existence of macedonians as an ethnic group, I don't expect them to admit to large influence of jews, arabs, and turks but to deny it is to live in a fantasy land. It's not so big as in anatolia but it's a lot bigger than in spain or italy put together.

The puzzling thing is the Nordic skulls in Macedonia and Northern Greece, which for me is not puzzling at all because they are the Illyrians and Thracians, who were half nordic.
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Macedonians do seem to be nordic or largely nordic and not slavic, though I guess that's possible too.
The proof is I1, I2b, and various western downstream R1b-s found in that area. These represent one of the Indo-European groups of immigrants, coming in the Bronze Age. So Alexander was half-nordic autosomally, but his y-group could have very well been E1b1b or J2, and who knows maybe even a group that is Persian or Phoenician...
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I don't see how that follows. He could have some other haplogroup, true. Obviously I select the most likely seeming one. However the e1bs native to europe should be the farmers, and the J2 either came recently or are the cretans. So I could see he turns out r1a or r1b but while those options aren't impossible they don't seem to be likely.
 
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http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greeknry/

All right, so I look on here. J-M267 is going to be heavy on the seleucid arabs. That didn't make it into greece much and from historic sources I don't really expect that it would. It is heavy in anatolia now of course which wouldn't be the case before ottomans. Well actually it probably would be the case already.

J-M172 is the big J. That's also what the people settled into balkans in ottoman times before the russo-turkic war would be. And also carried by 15% of askenazi jews. I don't know why people said it was j2a, maybe that's in there too but this is what you get for SOME turks and for many crimean/georgian caucasian people like circassians, who settled right in that spot and were the enforcers for the ottomans in greek territories.

21.4% in E-M78
I find it bizarre he reports this after saying everything is of caucasian origins. I guess that anything that's not west african is caucasian? Anyway like I said, 15% of total modern jews carry this, it's heavy in egypt and was in the natufians and samaritans. It's funny to me to think somehow this addition is supposed to be different if it comes from jews, turks, arabs, or ancient egyptians, it's all the same stuff. But mainly in europe it is along the coast and especially in places where jews had a big presence, and they never had a bigger presence than in byzantine roman empire. In case you don't know whole upper middle class of turkey is jewish and the e1b jdescendants of the guy who thought he was the messiah are still running around.

So I can't see chalking this up to the usual handwaving and attempts to deny your patrilineage and matrilineage actually mean something of your ethnicity or that you are the "true" fill in the blank of ethnicity we are talking about. I think the vast majority of people are going to be disappointed by the results of those endeavors if they look back just 1000 years let alone into prehistory.

But back to Greece, basically it's got no concrete ethnicity any more. I guess you could say greeks are balkanized he he he. Obviously most of this comes in really recently from sources like circassians, berbers in the catalan mercenaries (RIGHT on the spot for this, too), jews, etc. etc. From this breakdown I don't think any of these are ancient in the least, and I know the numbers were huge on both these fronts.

There's quite a bit of G and K, and the main parts are I, r1a, and r1b.

So my ultimate conclusion is this is the birthplace of I clade, where it expanded out of after ice age or immediately colonized. The r1a came later. Since r1b probably has a or even *the* homeland in anatolia maybe the back and forth conquests have something to do with that. Certainly if nothing else we can be certain troy was r1b, if we can be certain of anything.

Dienekes seems to think J originates in greece (guess he is J) but that seems pretty ridiculous. Obviously it's from around caspian sea or levant. Basically he calls the main components of arab and turkic and jew populations caucasian because he self identifies as being caucasian and those are large components of his homeland.
 
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why real euro ethnicity can be only r1a, r1b, and I ?! I don't understand these attempts to make E1b and J not European. Yes those groups came from Anatolia/Levant a long time ago, but Europeans have mixed with Anatolians and Levantines since the Stone Age; they're just too close geographically. It's not science to deny them now because of current political situations and economic conditions.
 
Noman said:
The ridiculous statement is to think j2 correlates to the greeks. You can see clearly that I haplogroup has been pushed west from greece and r1a came down out of the north in bronze age collapse. There's also tons of artifacts showing the pre-classic greeks were nothing like modern greeks or classic greeks. The modern greeks and classic greeks and pre-classic greeks are absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zero, zip. In looks, artifacts, and DNA.

Of course jews brought e1b, that is the biggest source of it outside of middle east. It is the "semitic" component of jews, and also of berbers, and originates in the levant. The samaritans from levant and north africa got mixed in with jews (who are J) and that is your e1b. There's also some e1b in neolithic farmers but it's much rarer. In any case nobody's getting blonde hair out of e1b ancestry.

Ottomans brought in majority of the crimean population and settled them in balkans, that's most of your j2. Some of that probably comes from jews as well. It's really just history. Jews couldn't hold land anywhere, they had to work in cities so when rome collapses they moved to constantinople and spain. Later they got forced out of spain and france and moved to austria and poland en masse. When poland conquered lithuania they moved there en masse as well. They never integrated in those places because they weren't allowed to, in USA they have completely integrated.

So whatever your point is, it's wrong.
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im just curious as to why you want to hold such a view that is completely wrong?
 
kamani said:
why real euro ethnicity can be only r1a, r1b, and I ?! I don't understand these attempts to make E1b and J not European. Yes those groups came from Anatolia/Levant a long time ago, but Europeans have mixed with Anatolians and Levantines since the Stone Age; they're just too close geographically. It's not science to deny them now because of current political situations and economic conditions.
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why would you say that? Of course E1b and J2 are European. They've probably been longer in euorpe than both r1a and r1b. Only I is the true European Haplogroup because it probably originated in Europe, where as r1 and J and E didn't, but that doesn't make them not european
 
E1b1b and J2 have been longer in Europe than both R1a and R1b so they can't be less European by that factor alone, and I haplogroup I is still a mystery...

Noman is a ***** to not be taken seriously, i know him from another place...
 
im just curious as to why you want to hold such a view that is completely wrong?
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Well dude from your other comments in the other thread you have knowledge gaps a truck can drive through. E1b alexander is just impossible. J2 Alexander is a fantasy born of desperate people trying to paint themselves as original greeks. Turns out the J2 was insignificant anyway going by dieneke's report.

Eldritch said:
E1b1b and J2 have been longer in Europe than both R1a and R1b so they can't be less European by that factor alone, and I haplogroup I is still a mystery...

Noman is a ***** to not be taken seriously, i know him from another place...
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I admit it's amusing to think people want to paint alexander as E1b, but I had no idea in heck this thread would be so exciting and I'd get so many people challenging the obvious. So even if I were a prankster of some kind it would take an even smarter person than I to make such a guess.

E1b doesn't come from the caucus area, so it's not caucasian, but semetic. It's the thing in semetic peoples like arabs and jews that makes them semetic instead of caucasian! SOME of the E1b has been in europe a while but you can't claim it's been there longer than r1b, r1b has been in anatolia at least since basically forever. We KNOW when most of the E1b comes to europe and it's very recent, like G you can virtually discount ancient E1b it just barely exists. And I am pretty r1b has been in north africa and iberia quite a long time even if maciamo's fantasyland autosomal DNA anaylis that comes down to guessing ethnicity based on skin color is popular with some folks here. But if you knew more about what you were talking about you'd not give it much weight.

Population markers are generally heavily selected on just like skin pigmentation markers. Meaning gedrosian component is probably completely meaningless, even worse than simply looking at skin tone in most cases. And even if it weren't then it gets hard to explain populations of r1b that don't have it.

It's obviously only the germanics who did. It's also obvious features like red hair got washed out by most of the r1b migrations, so that's not where they come from. Plus maciamo desperately tries to fit the nordics as the most neanderthallike peoples. What a joke. At any rate the skulls are nothing like neanderthals, don't know what the genetic percentages are. Basically this scenario is not possible, and moreover doesn't explain how it became so incredibly numerous in such a short time. If this is correct it grew many times faster than romans in the same period without any farming! That's just one more impossible thing that can't be accounted for.

Back to the Greeks, we know what classic greeks looked like, it's nothing like modern greeks. We have loads of pre classic artifacts that seem nordic and quite a few nording looking skulls. There's a heavy nordic influence for greece and even more for macedonia, which has way more blonde people today than greece does. Obviously Alexander was nordic. Also obviously he was not Greek, and he has nothing to do with Greeks in any way.

Absolutely none of this holds up to scrutiny and most of it is nonsense you can immediately discard.

But it's a decent job to try and place r1b as murdering invaders and semetic people as original inhabitants of europe, which I guess is what the crazy out of africa theories must really be about. Now tell me who the tr-oll here is. Or I guess it doens't count as ******** if it's political polemics, then it's somehow noble lies for a good cause. Self aggrandizement, what could be a better cause, eh?
 
Gentlemen, please tone down your exchange.
 
There's nothing to tone down on my end. I agree at least I is one of the bigger mysteries but this is the most plausible origin I can see. Even maciamo thinks r1a has always been in europe. Since bell beaker turned out r1b and it's continuous from other cultures I'd assume it's always been in europe too unless we get real evidence to the contrary (bell beaker or preceding related culture but wrong dna, which has never happened yet), and there's zero evidence of more ancient e1b in europe of any kind.
 
No, curly hair doesn't "prove that".
 
albanopolis said:
It does. Curly hair is southern european feature. Southerns are E,J,T,G, majority. Northerns are straight hair.
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There are many with blond (with light eyes) wavy and curly hair up north too. Do you have pt haplogroup for them too?
 
albanopolis said:
They too got the curly hair from E,J,G,T
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You should have used past tens in case of Alexander too. Even if he got his curly hair from his ancestors of E or J, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily E or J himself. Curly hair is an autosomal trait and not belongs to Y chromosome.
 
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