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Thread: Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi //// tuscans=albanians ?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Tosco (meaning "rude") is STILL preserved in Spanish. But Tosco (meaning "rude") was originated in Vulgar Latin from Vicus Tuscus in the late Roman Empire. Tuscus meaning "rude" is Vulgar Latin, afterwards Tosco became a ROMANCE word. While Tuscus meaning "Etruscan" is Early Latin or Archaic Latin. Do you really understand what i mean? I guess no.

    Please, what are you still talking about? Medieval Tuscan didn't exist??? Medieval Florentine is just a variety of medieval Tuscan language, we are talking about varietes of one language, not about separated languages. As we all should know, Florentine became the prominent variety in Tuscany. But there were few differences among all varietes, especially in written language.
    we agree on tosco, either rude or vulgar matters little, its not what others say in regards to albanian tosk.

    Romangnola language - Dante wrote ( Ca' de Ven' " [the 'house of wine' in Romagnola dialect])

    http://italian.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi...sta.org/gugol/
    google in Romagnola-Bolognese language

    http://italian.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi...a.it/bulgnais/

    Il sito de "Al Tréb dal Tridèl"

    CENACOLO DI CULTURA DIALETTALE FERRARESE

    http://italian.about.com/od/emiliano.../aa102809a.htm


    all bracketed under Romagnola

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    we agree on tosco, either rude or vulgar matters little, its not what others say in regards to albanian tosk.

    Interesting so the name Tosca the famous Opera is about a rude girl?



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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    As i told you in an older message, there is no connection between Toskë and Tuscans.
    The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus (probably from TUR, a root of Anatolian or Lydian origin. Greek Tursenoi/Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi, English Tyrrhens). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, it's an exonym. Etruscans called themselves Rasna or Rasenna, not Tusci.
    The Albanian name Tosk is an exonym (Albanian toskë) and it was borrowed from Italian (through the Venetian?) tosko or tosco that means "rough, crude", the same of Spanish adjective of Latin origin "Tosco" that means "crude, rough, coarse; raw; uncouth; clumsy". Italian and Spanish "Tosco" derive from Latin Tuscus and had two different meanings, although both share same root. The first meaning, the original one, is "Tuscan" (Etruscan-Tuscan);
    In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
    Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
    Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
    Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
    Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.
    I think that δρυς religion as Zeus holy tree etc is clear IE and maybe is connected with Driopes people (druids)
    a clear IE tribe,
    if we connect Etruscans with IE then the whole connection with Pelasgians collapse

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
    Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
    Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.
    Hal Fao, stop posting your ridiculous nationalist fantasies about the Etruscans and Pelasgians. I've warned you before: you're seriously running out of time now.

    Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:

    Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")

    Latin "durus" (hard)

    Germanic: English "tree"

    Albanian "dru"

    Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")

    Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").

    This is clearly a different from "Tusci"/"Etrusci". The so-called 'etymologies' and "magic dismantlements" that you have posted here in the past have no sort of regularity behind them and they do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. They only serve one goal: to paint (and spread) your own revisionist fantasy image about the Albanian language and about the Albanians as the 'true founders of civilization'. There is no room for such an agenda here on Eupedia.
    Last edited by Taranis; 24-03-12 at 18:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Romangnola language - Dante wrote ( Ca' de Ven' " [the 'house of wine' in Romagnola dialect])

    Romagnolo, not Romagnola. Dialect is masculine in Italian. In Italian: dialetto Romagnolo. Romagnolo dialect.

    Please, can you tell me the exact Divina Commedia's canto where Dante writes "Ca' de Ven"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Romagnolo, not Romagnola. Dialect is masculine in Italian. In Italian: dialetto Romagnolo. Romagnolo dialect.

    Please, can you tell me the exact Divina Commedia's canto where Dante writes "Ca' de Ven"?
    Actually the correct term is Romagnol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_language

    people call it what they like , like the book below
    http://books.google.com.au/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y

    Italians , like all the other races that annex another race/tribe/culture convert names of people towns, history etc etc

    They even convert meanings of words of writers like Dante in his word of Bordelo, which as he wrote and in the venetian language means, uproar, noisy and not what later Italians converted to mean a brothel.
    How can you even find the truth in all this nationalistic propaganda.?

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    good work

    there are was good work !

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Actually the correct term is Romagnol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_language

    people call it what they like , like the book below
    http://books.google.com.au/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y

    Italians , like all the other races that annex another race/tribe/culture convert names of people towns, history etc etc

    They even convert meanings of words of writers like Dante in his word of Bordelo, which as he wrote and in the venetian language means, uproar, noisy and not what later Italians converted to mean a brothel.
    How can you even find the truth in all this nationalistic propaganda.?
    Zanipolo, what are you still talking about? I'm FRENCH, and i'm studying Romance languages, Italian and Spanish Literature and Culture! Nationalistic propaganda? Are YOU so sure not be influenced by Venetian propaganda or Liga Veneta or Lega Nord propaganda?

    I invite you to show REAL and NEUTRAL sources to support your Unscientific Statements.


    Romagnolo is Italian. Can you read Italian?
    http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_romagnolo

    Just some questions. What's your real mother tongue? English? Where have you studied? In Australia? Are you the son or grandson of Venet immigrants in Australia?
    Last edited by binx; 28-03-12 at 11:33. Reason: cr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
    Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
    Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.
    This is Pan-Albanism, pure Albanian nationalistic propaganda.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Zanipolo, what are you still talking about? I'm FRENCH, and i'm studying Romance languages, Italian and Spanish Literature and Culture! Nationalistic propaganda? Are YOU so sure not be influenced by Venetian propaganda or Liga Veneta or Lega Nord propaganda?

    I invite you to show REAL and NEUTRAL sources to support your Unscientific Statements.


    Romagnolo is Italian. Can you read Italian?
    http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_romagnolo

    Just some questions. What's your real mother tongue? English? Where have you studied? In Australia? Are you the son or grandson of Venet immigrants in Australia?
    you seem to be one the likes to dispense with minor languages, not I, I prefer to keep every language/dialect viable in the world.

    Did you find the dante word of bordelo, you will see the meaning is not what it is today.
    to get the correct terminology of a language or place or people or surnames you go to the root , the original and not replace it with something else

    http://www.oleanderpress.com/index.p...id=15&vmcchk=1

    your link is clearly bias in the italian way of it being spelt. italians add vowels to everything, it was a way to create a language which was never created by the people in a natural way. It also was the last language to emerge in Italy

    So, cease this or I will get my cousin in Toulouse to bombard you linguistically with l'oc ............lol


    answer me this to see what kind of person you are...
    would you agree to allow, breton, savoryard, l'oc, basque, provenzal etc etc to be taught in their respective areas in schools.

    EDIT - the international linguistic codes and name below

    Romagnol (Language code 'rgn')

    ISO Language Code: rgn
    ISO Language Name: Romagnol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Well let me me inform you all that the word Tosk exist in some Greek sur-names,
    in Arvanto-Vlachs, Moschopolis becomes Tokas
    and in Moesian-Vlachs becomes Tositsas (Tosic)
    while it does not exist in Kutsuk-Vlachs
    Well. Tokas, Tositsas and Tosic are words of different origins.

    Tosk is also a rare German and Scandinavian surname. Tosk in norwegian means "fool".

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Well. Tokas, Tositsas and Tosic are words of different origins.

    Tosk is also a rare German and Scandinavian surname. Tosk in norwegian means "fool".
    Yes But I do not think that Surnames of Arvanto-Vlachs and Moesian vlachs have to do with Norwegian 'fool'
    while in kutsuk-Vlachs who have nothing to do with the 2 above areas does not exist

    the only case is only if the word passed from the Normandoi of sicily and taranto to area of Albania,


    I don't know the etymology of the word Tosk, simply I am mention it to prove that word exist as what? tribe name? toponym-origin name? job name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
    Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
    Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.
    This is Pan-Albanism, pure Albanian nationalistic propaganda.
    Here is the “right” etymology of “Tosc”:
    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    the second meaning, a later born meaning, is "rude" because of the disreputable character of the inhabitants of the Vicus Tuscus, that was an Etruscan Street in ancient Rome, but not more inhabited by Etruscans. The second meaning is perfectly preserved in Spanish and it's the right etimology of Albanian Tosk.
    (bolded by me)
    May be Taranis agrees with your “right” etymology and thinks it ‘stands up to scientific scrutiny’ (he has not opposed it yet, neither has he warned you).
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:
    Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")
    Latin "durus" (hard)
    Germanic: English "tree"
    Albanian "dru"
    Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")
    Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").
    May be you’ve forgotten (or is it intentional?) to add that all these words come from PIE *dru-.
    In addition I’d like to point out there’re many other words which came up ‘cause of religious PIE *dru-.
    Here are some of them:
    O.E. triewe (W.Saxon) "faithful, trustworthy”
    P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith"
    Ger. Treu “true”
    Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"
    Lith. drutas "firm”
    O.Ir. derb "sure”
    Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”
    Engl. True, truth, trust.
    All these meanings came up because of religious *dru-; even the fact that these words begin generally with “t” (instead of PIE *d), shows the Pelasgian (Etruscan) impact on Europian languages. Even “Troy” may be of the same etymology.
    See also http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...wed_in_frame=0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    May be you’ve forgotten (or is it intentional?) to add that all these words come from PIE *dru-.
    In addition I’d like to point out there’re many other words which came up ‘cause of religious PIE *dru-.
    I omitted them because I was focusing on the semantic meaning of "tree"/"wood".

    Here are some of them:
    O.E. triewe (W.Saxon) "faithful, trustworthy”
    P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith"
    Ger. Treu “true”
    Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"
    Engl. True, truth, trust.

    Lith. drutas "firm”
    O.Ir. derb "sure”
    If you compare this list, and if you compare this with the list I have posted...

    Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:

    Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")

    Latin "durus" (hard)

    Germanic: English "tree"

    Albanian "dru"

    Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")

    Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").
    All these meanings came up because of religious *dru-; even the fact that these words begin generally with “t” (instead of PIE *d), shows the Pelasgian (Etruscan) impact on Europian languages.
    ...you will notice that only in the Germanic languages (Anglo-Saxon, English, Gothic, etc.) there is a *t, in all other branches of IE this is reflected as *d. There is a *t in Germanic because PIE *d is reflected as *t into Germanic, thanks to Grimm's Law. All your bewildering fantasies about a "Pelgasian" loanword are completely unnecessary, and you're lying into your own face when you state that these words "generally begin with *t" (since that really only applies to Germanic).

    And now let's take a look at this:

    Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”
    Since PIE *d is reflected as *d into Albanian (we established that earlier with "dru"), the most probable explanation is that this is a Germanic loanword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”
    And now let's take a look at this:
    Since PIE *d is reflected as *d into Albanian (we established that earlier with "dru"), the most probable explanation is that this is a Germanic loanword.
    There’re other Albanian words which cognate to PIE *dru- , one of them (the most important one relating to that case) is truall (tru/al) that means “land”.
    Do you think it’s a Germanic loanword too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    There’re other Albanian words which cognate to PIE *dru- , one of them (the most important one relating to that case) is truall (tru/al) that means “land”.
    Do you think it’s a Germanic loanword too?
    Why should this be of the same root? It has a completely different semantic meaning. My opinion is that "truall" is a cognate with Latin "terra" and English "thirst".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Why should this be of the same root? It has a completely different semantic meaning. My opinion is that "truall" is a cognate with Latin "terra" and English "thirst".
    As a matter of fact, Albanian “truall” means “a useful land” for building the house and the orchard (or garden) around it. As a general term it means “a useful land”.
    The plural of “truall”/tru:all/ is “troye”/tro:je/.
    My opinion is that the first meaning of “tru-al” has been “orchard” or any other term relating with “tree” (PIE *dru-).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    As a matter of fact, Albanian “truall” means “a useful land” for building the house and the orchard (or garden) around it. As a general term it means “a useful land”.
    The plural of “truall”/tru:all/ is “troye”/tro:je/.
    My opinion is that the first meaning of “tru-al” has been “orchard” or any other term relating with “tree” (PIE *dru-).
    Then you're completely wrong, because it would require that such a thing as sound laws would be non-existent. When a sound change happens, this happens across the entire vocabulary of a language, and without exceptions. If there's apparent exceptions, these are either enforced by their own sets of rules (Verner's Law in the Germanic languages is a good example of that), or it is because a word is a loanword (meaning the word entered the language after the sound change happened). There are no exceptions from the above.

    The best example (for you, anyways) is if you compare Gheg and Tosk dialects. You will notice that the differences are always regularly and across the board. This is also a perfect example to debunk your silly idea that Albanian is purportedly unchanged since prehistoric times: the fact dialects exist shows that Albanian has changed. It's also a perfect question for you: which dialect is closer to the original condition in Albanian? Gheg? Or Tosk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Then you're completely wrong, because it would require that such a thing as sound laws would be non-existent. When a sound change happens, this happens across the entire vocabulary of a language, and without exceptions. If there's apparent exceptions, these are either enforced by their own sets of rules (Verner's Law in the Germanic languages is a good example of that), or it is because a word is a loanword (meaning the word entered the language after the sound change happened). There are no exceptions from the above.

    The best example (for you, anyways) is if you compare Gheg and Tosk dialects. You will notice that the differences are always regularly and across the board. This is also a perfect example to debunk your silly idea that Albanian is purportedly unchanged since prehistoric times: the fact dialects exist shows that Albanian has changed. It's also a perfect question for you: which dialect is closer to the original condition in Albanian? Gheg? Or Tosk?
    The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
    gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
    Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
    land as S=Stira A=Stere

    hill as S=Mala A=Malli

    tree as S=druh A=drou

    man as S=purusha A=pourre

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
    gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
    Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
    land as S=Stira A=Stere

    hill as S=Mala A=Malli

    tree as S=druh A=drou

    man as S=purusha A=pourre
    'pourre' ? do you mean 'burre'? the albanian word should be an evolution of PIE *bʰuH- (become) and *bʰer- (bear, carry) relating to 'child who grew up' or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    'pourre' ? do you mean 'burre'? the albanian word should be an evolution of PIE *bʰuH- (become) and *bʰer- (bear, carry) relating to 'child who grew up' or something like that.
    i rechecked it , and its a pourre hundreds of years ago. maybe it a change like s was written as an f only 150 years.

    maybe you can check these others

    worm S=krimi A=krimp

    bones S=asthi A =eshte

    great S=mahat A=mad


    its good to be mad in albanian !!!!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
    gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
    Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
    land as S=Stira A=Stere

    hill as S=Mala A=Malli

    tree as S=druh A=drou

    man as S=purusha A=pourre
    Hill in modern Albanian is "Kodër" (indefinite noun), "Kodra" (definite noun) and i think it hasn't changed in the last 150 years. The word which this guy points out as hill aka "mal/i" (since malli is a word totally unrelated) is a Latin loan word.

    Exp:
    English-Mountain
    Italian-Montagna
    Albanian-Mali

    As for man the word must be "burrë" and i'm sure that 150 years ago and now it was pronounce fairly the same with the only difference that at the time this guy wrote this supposedly common words it didn't exist and formal Albanian language with rules and everything else so basically everyone could write any word as he heard it or thought it should be written and still be the correct way to write it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i rechecked it , and its a pourre hundreds of years ago. maybe it a change like s was written as an f only 150 years.

    maybe you can check these others

    worm S=krimi A=krimp

    bones S=asthi A =eshte

    great S=mahat A=mad


    its good to be mad in albanian !!!!
    "Worm" would be "Krimb" which exist as an adverb too, "i/e krimbur" and means "Rotten".

    For "bones" the word this author means, I suppose is "Eshtra", which is an sort of old word, rarely used today. "Është" is third person, singular, Present Tense, Demostrative Way of the verb "To Be" (Jam-Alb)

    As for "great" the word again I suppose is "i/e Madh". I think in the Albanian Language thread this word has already been "discussed", and I think is a PIE word in Albanian. Like for example in Greek (if i'm not mistaken) the word or one of the words for great or big is "mega", which you don't need to be an expert to say that "madh" and "mega" either are loan words or one-another or have a common root.

    IDK but this guy doesn't seem a very good linguistic or at least with little knowledge in Albanian not to say none at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    Hill in modern Albanian is "Kodër" (indefinite noun), "Kodra" (definite noun) and i think it hasn't changed in the last 150 years. The word which this guy points out as hill aka "mal/i" (since malli is a word totally unrelated) is a Latin loan word.

    Exp:
    English-Mountain
    Italian-Montagna
    Albanian-Mali

    As for man the word must be "burrë" and i'm sure that 150 years ago and now it was pronounce fairly the same with the only difference that at the time this guy wrote this supposedly common words it didn't exist and formal Albanian language with rules and everything else so basically everyone could write any word as he heard it or thought it should be written and still be the correct way to write it.



    "Worm" would be "Krimb" which exist as an adverb too, "i/e krimbur" and means "Rotten".

    For "bones" the word this author means, I suppose is "Eshtra", which is an sort of old word, rarely used today. "Është" is third person, singular, Present Tense, Demostrative Way of the verb "To Be" (Jam-Alb)

    As for "great" the word again I suppose is "i/e Madh". I think in the Albanian Language thread this word has already been "discussed", and I think is a PIE word in Albanian. Like for example in Greek (if i'm not mistaken) the word or one of the words for great or big is "mega", which you don't need to be an expert to say that "madh" and "mega" either are loan words or one-another or have a common root.

    IDK but this guy doesn't seem a very good linguistic or at least with little knowledge in Albanian not to say none at all.
    yes its a long time ago and words change from all languages

    Die Sprache der Albanesen oder Schkipetaren / von J. Ritter von Xylander

    Author Xylander, Josef Ritter von 1794-1854 Subjects Albanian language; Albanian language -- Grammar


    Since the italian Bianchi in the 17th century claimed albanian to be Epirote as he found albanian people and writing in southern italy to match what he found in albania , Ritter von xylander caliamed albanan to be of persian origin , via migration through Wallachia ( vlachs?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    yes its a long time ago and words change from all languages

    Die Sprache der Albanesen oder Schkipetaren / von J. Ritter von Xylander

    Author Xylander, Josef Ritter von 1794-1854 Subjects Albanian language; Albanian language -- Grammar


    Since the italian Bianchi in the 17th century claimed albanian to be Epirote as he found albanian people and writing in southern italy to match what he found in albania , Ritter von xylander caliamed albanan to be of persian origin , via migration through Wallachia ( vlachs?)
    wallachians and Vlachs are not the same people,

    Vlachs = aromani

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