Y-DNA Haplogroups in Iraqi Kurdistan

[DejaVu]

http://en.ostan-kd.ir/Default.aspx?TabId=51
History of the Kurds

Kurds are one of the Iranian peoples and speak a north-western Iranian language related to Persian.
With regard to the origin of the Kurds, it was formerly considered sufficient to describe them as the descendants of the Carduchi, who opposed the retreat of the Ten Thousand through the mountains in the 4th century BC. But modern research traces them far beyond the period of the Greeks. In their own histories, they are proud to mention the Hurrian period in the mid third millennium BC as the earliest documented period. The 3rd millennium was the time of the Guti and Hattians, the 2nd and 1st the time of the Kassites, Mitanni, Mannai, Urartu, and Mushku. It should be mentioned that the Kurds are an Indo-European people, whereas the above groups are thought to have been non Indo-Europeans, apart from the original Mitanni leadership. However, Kurds consider themselves as much Indo-European as they do any of these.
At the dawn of history the mountains overhanging Assyria were held by a people named Gutii, a title which signified "a warrior", and which was rendered in Assyrian by the synonym of Gardu or Kardu, the precise term quoted by Strabo to explain the name of the Car daces. These Gutii were a tribe of such power as to be placed in the early Cuneiform records on an equality with the other nations of western Asia, that is, with the Syrians and Hittites, the Susians, Elamites, and Akkadians of Babylonia; and during the whole period of the Assyrian Empire they seem to have preserved a more-or-less independent political position.
After the fall of Nineveh the Gutii coalesced with the Medes, and, in common with all the nations inhabiting the high plateaus of Asia Minor, Armenia and Persia, became gradually Aryanised, owing to the immigration at this period of history of tribes in overwhelming numbers who, from whatever quarter they may have sprung, belonged certainly to the Aryan family.
Cyrus reduced the Gutii or Kurdu to subjection before he descended upon Babylon, and furnished a contingent of fighting men to his successors, being thus mentioned under the names of "Saspirians" and "Alarodians" in the muster roll of the army of Xerxes, which Herodotus has preserved.
In later times they passed successively under the sway of the Macedonians, the Parthians, and Sassanids, being especially befriended, if we may judge from tradition as well as from the remains still existing in the country, by the Arsacid monarchs, who were probably of a cognate race. Gotarzes indeed, whose name may perhaps be translated "chief of the Gutii", was traditionally believed to be the founder of the Gurans, the principal tribe of southern Kurdistan, and his name and titles are still preserved in a Greek inscription at Behistun near the Kurdish capital of Kermanshah.
Under the caliphs of Baghdad the Kurds were always giving trouble in one quarter or another. In AD 838, and again in 905, formidable insurrections occurred in northern Kurdistan; the amir, Aqpd-addaula, was obliged to lead ten forces of the caliphate against the southern Kurds, capturing the famous fortress of Sermaj, of which the ruins are to be seen at the present day near Behistun, and reducing the province of Shahrizor with its capital city now marked by the great mound of Yassin Teppeh.
The most flourishing period of Kurdish power was probably during the 12th century, when the great Saladin, who belonged to the Rawendi branch of the Hadabani tribe, founded the Ayyubite dynasty of Syria, and Kurdish chieftain hips were established, not only to the east and west of the Kurdistan mountains, but as far as Khorasan upon one side and Egypt and Yemen on the other.
During the Mongol and Tatar domination of western Asia the Kurds in the mountains remained for the most part passive, yielding a reluctant obedience to the provincial governors of the plains. When Sultan Selim I, after defeating Shah Ismail I in 1514, annexed Armenia and Kurdistan, he entrusted the organization of the conquered territories to Idris, the historian, who was a Kurd of Bitlis. Idris found Kurdistan bristling with castles, held by hereditary tribal chiefs of Kurd, Arab, and Armenian descent, who were practically independent, and passed their time in tribal warfare or in raiding the agricultural population. He divided the territory into sanjaks or districts, and, making no attempt to interfere with the principle of heredity, installed the local chiefs as governors. He also resettled the rich pastoral country between Erzerum and Erivan, which had lain waste since the passage of Timur, with Kurds from the Hakkari and Bohtan districts.
The system of administration introduced by Idris remained unchanged until the close of the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29. But the Kurds, owing to the remoteness of their country from the capital and the decline of Turkey, had greatly increased in influence and power, and had spread westwards over the country as far as Angora.
After the war the Kurds attempted to free themselves from Turkish control, and in 1834, after the Bedirkhan clan uprising, it became necessary to reduce them to subjection. Reshid Pasha did this. The principal towns were strongly garrisoned, and Turkish governors replaced many of the Kurd beys. A rising under Bedr Khan Bey in 1843 was firmly repressed, and after the Crimean War the Turks strengthened their hold on the country. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 was followed by the attempt of Sheikh Obaidullah in 1880 - 1881 to found an independent Kurd principality under the protection of Turkey. The attempt, at first encouraged by the Porte, as a reply to the projected creation of an Armenian state under the suzerainty of Russia, collapsed after Obaidullah's raid into Persia, when various circumstances led the central government to reassert its supreme authority. Until the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29 there had been little hostile feeling between the Kurds and the Armenians, and as late as 1877 - 1878 the mountaineers of both races had co-existed fairly well together. Both suffered from Turkey, both dreaded Russia. But the national movement amongst the Armenians, and its encouragement by Russia after the latest war, gradually aroused race hatred and fanaticism.
In 1891 the activity of the Armenian Committees induced the Porte to strengthen the position of the Kurds by raising a body of Kurdish irregular cavalry, which was well armed and called Hamidieh after the Sultan Abd-ul-Hamid II. The opportunities thus offered for plunder and the gratification of race hatred brought out the worst qualities of the Kurds. Minor disturbances constantly occurred, and were soon followed by the massacre of Armenians at Sasun and other places, 1894 - 1896, in which the Kurds took an active part.
This article uses text from 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

[Alan]

This is my opinion on the Origin of Kurds.

The first Kurds and Name Giver are definitive the Gutians. Later this Gutians mixed with the Hurrians.

Scythians and Medes mixed up with the Gutians. So the Carduchi arose. Which according to "Xenephon" spoke Scythian and Median Dialects believed in the Hurrian Sky God Teshub and according to "Arshak Safrastian" had Gutians among them which were presented as Scythians and Medes in Corduene .

So in my opinion

first Kurds = Gutians

Gutians + Hurrians = neo Gutians Gutium, karda

Neo Gutians + Scythians, Medes, Alans = Karduchi

Of course there were also other Groups which left their mark, like the Cimmerians etc.


But the main and most important Groups are the above.

Gutians being Name Giver.
Scythians, Alans and Medes language giving
And Hurrians being also a native Group living in this area and most probably uniting with Gutians against Assyrians

Between the Gutians are usually brought in contact with the Tocharians. I do not know if we can trust this. But also according to new Studies everything seems like the first Indo Europeans were pastors and moved out of West Asia. Gutians maybe were one of the first and most archaic Indo European Groups. Which mixed with the back migrating Scythians/Alans/Medes. But this is only a Theory.

[iapetoc]

well by what I know the population of Kurds looks like is European origin,

could they be connected with the Skudra case???????

in an older language, Surdi means soldier.

I mean that were balcanic people that follow Darius A at 512 Bc??
and not connected with local population before 500 Bc.

simply I know that their types of I2 is I2a2,

remember Kurds are wearing the Causia as the Makedonians.
in older photos we see that,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kausia


Skudra is known that went very west, Kurds are Persian Speaking,
just wandering if they were Balcanic people that were moved by Darius A

the abone is not certain simply it is an thought that connects the Persian language, and European Y-Dna

[Alan]

http://en.ostan-kd.ir/Default.aspx?TabId=51

In 1891 the activity of the Armenian Committees induced the Porte to strengthen the position of the Kurds by raising a body of Kurdish irregular cavalry, which was well armed and called Hamidieh after the Sultan Abd-ul-Hamid II. The opportunities thus offered for plunder and the gratification of race hatred brought out the worst qualities of the Kurds. Minor disturbances constantly occurred, and were soon followed by the massacre of Armenians at Sasun and other places, 1894 - 1896, in which the Kurds took an active part.
This article uses text from 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

well this overview is very one-sided if you ask me. The Reason why some Kurdish Groups were involved in this massacres is that the Armenians tried to build a "greater Armenia" with Russian help in Regions which were even dominantly kurdish. There are more than enough evidences showing that the Armenians tried a ethnic cleansing by killing innocent non Armenian People in Eastern Anatolia. We also have maps dawn by German and French. showing that 90% of the Regions claimed by nationalistic Armenian Groups were not even half Armenian some even less than 10% before the Genocide. Armenians were massacred that is true but they were not that innocent.

[archaiocapilos]

This proportion of haplogroups looks even more European than what is found in Greece or South Italy ! (more hg I and R, less hg E and J)

Maciamo you consider all haplogroup R European and all haplogroup E African that's why Kurds seem more ''European'' to you. But the majority of E in Greece and South Italy is by large of European origin (Balkanic) while the majority of R in Kurds is of Asian origin...

[iapetoc]

well this overview is very one-sided if you ask me. The Reason why some Kurdish Groups were involved in this massacres is that the Armenians tried to build a "greater Armenia" with Russian help in Regions which were even dominantly kurdish. There are more than enough evidences showing that the Armenians tried a ethnic cleansing by killing innocent non Armenian People in Eastern Anatolia. We also have maps dawn by German and French. showing that 90% of the Regions claimed by nationalistic Armenian Groups were not even half Armenian some even less than 10% before the Genocide. Armenians were massacred that is true but they were not that innocent.

well that is not true,
cause Kurds follow Topal Osman in the Rum Genocide,
the numbers and the stories, say that Turks respect in majority the leaving Greeks, But Topal Osman and Kurds just slain for Gold,
I have read many stories,
In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,
I know that cause a friend of Mine was a 'deli' that time,

Kurds even today have a strange kind of thinking, Great warriors but never united, they served whoever pay them, until 1920, I don't know today.

[Alan]

well that is not true,
cause Kurds follow Topal Osman in the Rum Genocide,
the numbers and the stories, say that Turks respect in majority the leaving Greeks, But Topal Osman and Kurds just slain for Gold,
I have read many stories,
In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,
I know that cause a friend of Mine was a 'deli' that time,

Kurds even today have a strange kind of thinking, Great warriors but never united, they served whoever pay them, until 1920, I don't know today.

My Point wasnt to prove that Kurds took not part in killing Armenians because some Kurds did of course. What I am trying to tell is that Armenians tried to invade Eastern Anatolia and establish a new "greater Armenia" this is a Fact. If you dont support this than please show me evidences which speak against this.
Here is a map of 1920 showing the Regions claimed by Armenian nationalists. interestingly even parts of the Pontus which belong to the Laz and Pontus Greeks was claimed by them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Asia_Minor.png

map showing Armenian Population in 1896 (before the Genocide)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_map_1896.jpg



I myself know that most Kurds were some kind of Mercenaries and I also know that the Kurds were mainly used as Janissaries in conquering the Balkans many Kurds were also settled in Greece at that time. It is true that Kurds were (are ) warrior like and were never really under control of any Empire. I know books were it is said how even the Turks didnt dare to enter the kurdish areas. I know a book were a Traveler describes how the Turks, Armenians and Laz were hiding in fear of kurdish cavalryman.
however today the Kurds especially the younger generation has changed and the unity is by far bigger.

This isnt the problem i do accept that. But what i dont accept is the armenians are shown too innocent. there was indeed an attack by Armenians on Kurds in hope they could establish a new greater Armenia. I have lost some of my ancestors to this.

In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,

I wonder from where this story is. Never heard about a pasha who tried to protect the Greeks from Kurds who slaughtered them. I hope not next someone will claim Kurds occupied the Pontus and driven out the Greeks.

between another interesting similarity between ancient Scythian tribes and Kurds is the love for Gold.

[Alan]

Maciamo you consider all haplogroup R European and all haplogroup E African that's why Kurds seem more ''European'' to you. But the majority of E in Greece and South Italy is by large of European origin (Balkanic) while the majority of R in Kurds is of Asian origin...

Agree and disagree. Haplogroup J and E belong as much to Europe as R but there is no European or Asiatic J like you claim. The J among Greeks are J2a and J2b this are also the only subgroups found in the Near East. And there is almost no difference among the R in the Middle East and the one in Greece exception some in South Asia.

[archaiocapilos]

Agree and disagree. Haplogroup J and E belong as much to Europe as R but there is no European or Asiatic J like you claim. The J among Greeks are J2a and J2b this are also the only subgroups found in the Near East. And there is almost no difference among the R in the Middle East and the one in Greece exception some in South Asia.

But Kurds have as much J1 as Ashkenazi or Shefardi Jews nowhere near European people (for example Greeks have 2-3%, S.Italians have around 4% while Kurds have 15%). They also have a lot of Central Asian haplogroups like P,Q,N wich do not exist in Southern Europe. And by the way there are indeed diffences in haplogroup R in Middle East and Southern Europe ( Greeks have sub-clades R1b1b2a1ad (U-152)= 4.2% and R1a1a1a7= 3.8% wich are definetely of European origin and together total around 8.0% while Kurds have none of them.

[Alan]

But Kurds have as much J1 as Ashkenazi or Shefardi Jews nowhere near European people (for example Greeks have 2-3%, S.Italians have around 4% while Kurds have 15%). They also have a lot of Central Asian haplogroups like P,Q,N wich do not exist in Southern Europe. And by the way there are indeed diffences in haplogroup R in Middle East and Southern Europe ( Greeks have sub-clades R1b1b2a1ad (U-152)= 4.2% and R1a1a1a7= 3.8% wich are definetely of European origin and together total around 8.0% while Kurds have none of them.

Wait a minute please. Just to make this clear. Here is no discussion about Kurds being European or not. Dont come up with something what isnt on discussion.

Before you make any statements do it with Sources. 15% J1 among Kurds according to which Study? 11,6 % J1 were found among Iraqi Kurds and 0% among Anatolian Kurds but this is probably higher cause some of the F* were not defined and would probably come out as J1. So I assume 3-4% J1 among Anatolian Kurds.

Anatolian Kurds with 15-20 million Population are by far more representative than 5 million Iraqi Kurds. so you come hardly over 5% J1 and beside that the high majority of J1 among Kurds belongs to J1* and is related to that found among Caucasus populations.

The P you are referring to is probably P1(R2a), because P* is undefined R* or Q ( in kurdish case probably R), and R2(P1) is around 5%. But R2 was recently also found in Slavic Groups and Iberia. And it is a very Young Haplogroup probably not older than 1- or 2000 Years.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

About Q, how much do the Kurds have? Cause I couldnt find any study showing Q among Kurds. So I assume it might probably be around 0-3% and the frequency is not bigger as among some European groups. So not worth to be mentioned.




Please no baseless statements.

[archaiocapilos]

In a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia:
P = 10.0 %
J1 = 11.2 %
H = 2.4 %
K = 4.8 %
Source: Flores et.al (2005)
I don't know if P is Q, R2 or P* but all of these haplogroups are non existant in Europe. Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are from Anatolia or Iraq.

[iapetoc]

My Point wasnt to prove that Kurds took not part in killing Armenians because some Kurds did of course. What I am trying to tell is that Armenians tried to invade Eastern Anatolia and establish a new "greater Armenia" this is a Fact. If you dont support this than please show me evidences which speak against this.
Here is a map of 1920 showing the Regions claimed by Armenian nationalists. interestingly even parts of the Pontus which belong to the Laz and Pontus Greeks was claimed by them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Asia_Minor.png

map showing Armenian Population in 1896 (before the Genocide)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_map_1896.jpg



I myself know that most Kurds were some kind of Mercenaries and I also know that the Kurds were mainly used as Janissaries in conquering the Balkans many Kurds were also settled in Greece at that time. It is true that Kurds were (are ) warrior like and were never really under control of any Empire. I know books were it is said how even the Turks didnt dare to enter the kurdish areas. I know a book were a Traveler describes how the Turks, Armenians and Laz were hiding in fear of kurdish cavalryman.
however today the Kurds especially the younger generation has changed and the unity is by far bigger.

This isnt the problem i do accept that. But what i dont accept is the armenians are shown too innocent. there was indeed an attack by Armenians on Kurds in hope they could establish a new greater Armenia. I have lost some of my ancestors to this.


I wonder from where this story is. Never heard about a pasha who tried to protect the Greeks from Kurds who slaughtered them. I hope not next someone will claim Kurds occupied the Pontus and driven out the Greeks.

between another interesting similarity between ancient Scythian tribes and Kurds is the love for Gold.

the area is near Ordu, yes there were many, not one, I will not anounce names due to respect, but in many areas Turk pasa protect evacuated Rum from thieves and murderers, while in other they ordered a massacre,

[Goga]

..........

[Alan]

In a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia:
P = 10.0 %
J1 = 11.2 %
H = 2.4 %
K = 4.8 %
Source: Flores et.al (2005)
I don't know if P is Q, R2 or P* but all of these haplogroups are non existant in Europe. Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are from Anatolia or Iraq.

Flores at al.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm

Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are from Anatolia or Iraq.

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan

Youa are using a Study on some kurdish refugees from Jordan(originally from Iraq) to prove your point?
Is this meant to be a joke?

There are Studies about Kurds but half of them are about refugees or diaspora Kurds from Turkmenistan which are mixed with the native Populations.

NO, 251 Kurds from all over the world. From Anatolia to Turkmenistan. Turkmenistan is not in the Middle East.

Flores et al. (2005) is a study about Jordan. Flores et.al (2005) 'recycled' (made-up) samples of Kurds from: (7) Wells et al. (2001); (13) Nebel et al. (2001); (18) Nasidze et al. (2005) and Cruciani et al. (2004) without any correlation with each other. I can't find any J1 in one of these used studies. He took E from a Turkish population from Cruciani et al. (2004) and without any recalculation of the total population, I don't know why I is so low. I see many huge errors in Flores et.al (2005). Almost everything is made-up. It's a very strange and obscure practice of science. And a sample size of 251 is made-up (wrong) too. This is more abracadabra and manipulation of data than science! I'm waiting for a more credible source, please.

Thank you very much exactly my Point. He basically uses all Studies on Kurds without correlation. You cant use a study about Kurds from Jordan or Georgia which are in Number under 50 thousand or Turkmenistan in far diaspora and use the samples in the same weight as samples of a Study about Kurds from their mainlands with a population over 30-40 million. This is amateurish or just a manipulation.

[Alan]

the area is near Ordu, yes there were many, not one, I will not anounce names due to respect, but in many areas Turk pasa protect evacuated Rum from thieves and murderers, while in other they ordered a massacre,

well than i apologize for what some Kurdish groups did in interests of others.. And i am also sorry for what happened to the native Armenians. Even if some Groups among them behaved in a too nationalistic way the civilians did not deserve to be slaughtered but this unfortunately is how the world sometimes works. The innocent People pay for their leaders mistakes.

[archaiocapilos]

In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds included):
P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
P* (Q?)= 5.3%
F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.

[iapetoc]

well than i apologize for what some Kurdish groups did in interests of others.. And i am also sorry for what happened to the native Armenians. Even if some Groups among them behaved in a too nationalistic way the civilians did not deserve to be slaughtered but this unfortunately is how the world sometimes works. The innocent People pay for their leaders mistakes.

in fact I believe that Kurdish people without offense have just few years (20-30) of realizing their nationality, and politic systems,

No need to apologise for anyone, it was the time's system and way of life, i can not expand farther cause then it will religious,
simply some go to heaven by being nice to other persons, and others by killing.
it was logical since mountain poor people many times need to move or to fight for income, and the religious connection among kurds and Turks was stronger,
I believe that still kurds are divided to phatrias and sometime fight among them, but they are more open minded, since the last years they can elect some politicians and can take part in the common of the state.
the rest is up to them and their 'common'
same thing could happened different if war went different,so no need to apologise, just think and realise what I am talking (divided phatrias)

[Goga]

In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds include:

P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
P* (Q?)= 5.3%
F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.

No, Kurds have no Q nor N!

Kurdish P is P-M45. P-M45 can be Q or R, but Kurdish P-M45 is more likely R1-something, because they didn't find any Q in Kurds. http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf ---} Kurdish P = P-M45.

Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is in fact an error sign and can be everything. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf


Of course have Kurds some J1. I believe they have that from the Akkadians (Assyrians), Babylonians (Chaldeans) and Jews. These folks are Southern Mesopotamians or Northern Semites! Kurds have been living next to them for millennia. Northern Semites were the civilization builders, great folks!

According many people only some J1 types are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic. And J1 is very common in the Caucasus. But I think that all types of J1 and E are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic.

Northern Kurds don't have so much J1, so I think that southern Kurds have J1 from the northern Semites (southern Mesopotamians) and not from the people of Caucasus.
Kurds have less J2+J1+E than the Greeks do. And Kurds do also have more I(2a).
Greeks are more mixed with the Semitic sea people and Semitic Levantines than Kurds with the southern Mesopotamian northern Semites.

[archaiocapilos]

No, Kurds have no Q nor N!

Kurdish P is P-M45. P-M45 can be Q or R, but Kurdish P-M45 is more likely R1-something, because they didn't find any Q in Kurds. http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf ---} Kurdish P = P-M45.

Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is in fact an error sign and can be everything. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf


Of course have Kurds some J1. I believe they have that from the Akkadians (Assyrians), Babylonians (Chaldeans) and Jews. These folks are Southern Mesopotamians or Northern Semites! Kurds have been living next to them for millennia. Northern Semites were the civilization builders, great folks!

According many people only some J1 types are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic. And J1 is very common in the Caucasus. But I think that all types of J1 and E are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic.

Northern Kurds don't have so much J1, so I think that southern Kurds have J1 from the northern Semites (southern Mesopotamians) and not from the people of Caucasus.
Kurds have less J2+J1+E than the Greeks do. And Kurds do also have more I(2a).
Greeks are more mixed with the Semitic sea people and Semitic Levantines than Kurds with the southern Mesopotamian northern Semites.

The Sea People could be everything but Semites, most propably they where Greek and Anatolian peoples. J2 is not Semitic since the original Semites (Arabs) have very little J2 while Indo-European peoples (Indo-Iranians, Greeks, Anatolians, Italians) have a lot. The only subclade of E that is related to Semites is E-M123. But anyway I think that haplogroups are not exclusive to any ancient population so you can't say that J1 is Semitic or R1 is Indo-European, you can only connect haplogroups with geographic areas.

[archaiocapilos]

Haplogroup P-M45 is definetely not R1 in Kurds because R1 was tested in the same paper so it is either P* or Q

[Alan]

In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds included):
P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
P* (Q?)= 5.3%
F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.

It makes no sense to go on explaining you something while you have no interests in understanding it. F* is the father of all known Caucasian Haplogroups ( I, J, T, G, R, L, N, Q...) And you assume that F* has to be J1 because... exactly because of what?

While the F segments among Kurds are most probably some R and I,J* types you assume of course that the 10,5% F* among Kurds can only be 1-2% H (surprise a Sinti-Roma Haplogroup) and J1. This is pure provocation not more.

[archaiocapilos]

It makes no sense to go on explaining you something for what your logic seems not enough. F* is the father of all known Caucasian Haplogroups ( I, J, T, G, R, L, N, Q...) And you assume that F* has to be J1 because... exactly because of what?

While the F segments among Kurds are most probably some R and I,J* types you assume of course that the 10,5% F* among Kurds can only be 1-2% H (surprise a Gypsy Haplogroup) and J1. This is pure provocation not more.

Dear friend I have nothing against Kurds. I assume that F* is either J1 or H because J2,I,G and K* were tested so F* must be J1, H or paragroup F. The same applies for haplogroup P*.

[Alan]

Dear friend I have nothing against Kurds. I assume that F* is either J1 or H because J2,I,G and K* were tested so F* must be J1, H or paragroup F. The same applies for haplogroup P*.

This is not True Nasidze has tested J1 among all of his Studies so far why shouldnt he do this on the kurdish samples too?
And who tells you that if a Haplogroup already was tested, that the other F segments cant come out as G, J2 I or K*? I have never heard about such a rule could you please provide some sources for this "fact"?. Even if we assume this is the case still some subclades of G and I were not tested like G*. I have seen a Kurd with I1a on the net with crusader origin probably.

And we cant go after your assuming that F* is mainly J1 like I mentioned. 3-5% of it might be J1 but assuming that most or all of it is J1 is simply fantasy work and has nothing to do with scientific facts because very well some of the F* could easily come out as N while we know some N are not rare in East Anatolia. And you simply misinterpreted the F segments among Kurds as H and J1 ? You cant sell us something as a fact while it is not clear. This is simply manipulation and pseudo science just like how you tried to sell us a study about Jordanian Kurds as a Study about Anatolian Kurds. So why should I take your words for Real?

And before you start to post again in a manipulative way you should first take in account what some people did answer you.

Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is in fact an error sign and can be everything. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.

[archaiocapilos]

This is not True Nasidze has tested J1 among all of his Studies so far why shouldnt he do this on the kurdish samples too?
And who tells you that if a Haplogroup already was tested, that the other F segments cant come out as G, J2 I or K*? I have never heard about such a rule could you please provide some sources for this "fact"?. Even if we assume this is the case still some subclades of G and I were not tested like G*. I have seen a Kurd with I1a on the net with crusader origin probably.

And we cant go after your assuming that F* is mainly J1 like I mentioned. 3-5% of it might be J1 but assuming that most or all of it is J1 is simply fantasy work and has nothing to do with scientific facts because very well some of the F* could easily come out as N while we know some N are not rare in East Anatolia. And you simply misinterpreted the F segments among Kurds as H and J1 ? You cant sell us something as a fact while it is not clear. This is simply manipulation and pseudo science just like how you tried to sell us a study about Jordanian Kurds as a Study about Anatolian Kurds. So why should I take your words for Real?

And before you start to post again in your provocative and manipulative way you should first take in account what some people did answer you.

I did read what they have answered me but it really sounds more logical that F is J1 because in that particular region (south-east Anatolia) there is a lot of J1. I mean all surrounding people have J1 (Turks = 10%, Syrians = 20-25%, Armenians = 6-7%) but you suppose that F could be everything (I, J2, N, R) except J1 in Kurds, could you explain why?
I'm not a geneticist but I thought that you can't belong to haplogroup J2 without belonging in M172, am I wrong?

[archaiocapilos]

I mean that everyone who is positive for R1-M173 must be positive for K-M9 too, is that a mistake. If it is I stand corrected and I appologize to you