"I2a" and "I2b" are about to mean something different...

with comments by KN on the 1st of July 2011
[[ The two P37+ are consistent with I2a1 M26+. Note the ( - 12 ) for DYS385
> which I interpret to mean they only saw an electropherogram peak at 12
> repeats. I2a1 has a 12,12 modality at DYS385, and other STR repeats are
> consistent with the modalities of today's I2a1. Balkan I2a2a is modal 14-15
> at DYS385 and probably too young a clade to have populated France 5000 years
> ago. I2a1 M26+ on the other hand is one of the older (if not the oldest)
> clades in haplogroup I as measured by population variance.
>
> Today's I2a1 M26+ population is highly concentrated in far western Europe.
> It basically is the anti-R1a in European frequency --- rarely seen east of a
> line going north from Venice, Italy. Although very strong in Sardinia and
> Iberia, I2a1 M26+ continues at decent frequency up the Atlantic seaboard and
> into the British Isles, but hardly makes an appearance in Scandinavia. Very
> interesting to see it in SW France 5000 years ago.
>
> There are several snps now discovered downstream of M26. One of them, L160,
> nicely divides I2a1. It would be nice if these researchers have saved some
> dna and could run L160 on it?
>
> KN ]]


and also that the I2a1a in Basque lands is 8000 BC, sardinia is 5000BC and North Italy is 2000BC , does that indicate that the movement of these genes was from West to East , or am I reading something different
 
and also that the I2a1a in Basque lands is 8000 BC, sardinia is 5000BC and North Italy is 2000BC , does that indicate that the movement of these genes was from West to East , or am I reading something different

I think that sounds about right, at least that it was situated in the West (probably Iberia or a part of France) when it started expanding. That probably explains why it correlates poorly with G2a (which came from the East) in Iberia but well elsewhere.
 
Probalby I2a1a originated in the Pyrenees, doesn't matter if was in the Basque region or not. It's easy from there to spread and, except for Sardinia (in the middle) its location is predominately Western.
 
I2a and I2b diverged ( split off) somewhere in the northern Balkans, I2b would begin heading towards Germany whereas I2a would head towards Ukraine/Moldova. In fact, I am currently under the impression that I2a first arrived near Moldova and then later spread to Bosnia and Herzegovina/ southern Balkans, but probably some piece of evidence will be suggested later that will, once more, alter my opinion. Unless I2b split from I2a near the Bosnian refugium and headed to Germany and later I2a spread from the southern Balkans towards Moldova lollll.....a complicated question this is
 
Four new Dinaric SNPs are now available for order in FTDNA's Advanced menu.

Two of them, CTS11768 and CTS4002, apparently define the clade as CTS10936 also reportedly does. All three were derived in Dinaric Geno 2.0 results but ancestral in Disles, the nearest other clade.

Two of them, CTS10228 and CTS5966, apparently split the Dinaric clade. They were ancestral in one south-central Polish Dinaric, but derived in about seven other Dinarics across Central-Eastern Europe. The one Dinaric that tested negative for CTS10228 and CTS5966 has ordered Y-DNA67, but no marker results have arrived yet.(Igmayka)
 
I2a and I2b diverged ( split off) somewhere in the northern Balkans, I2b would begin heading towards Germany whereas I2a would head towards Ukraine/Moldova. In fact, I am currently under the impression that I2a first arrived near Moldova and then later spread to Bosnia and Herzegovina/ southern Balkans, but probably some piece of evidence will be suggested later that will, once more, alter my opinion. Unless I2b split from I2a near the Bosnian refugium and headed to Germany and later I2a spread from the southern Balkans towards Moldova lollll.....a complicated question this is

Your suggestions would make more sense if the Dinaric branch of I2a and I2a were equivalent, but they're not. I2a-Din is far downstream of I2a itself (assuming you define I2a as P37.2+ here). It's therefore not correct to try to extract where I2-P37.2 and I2-L35 split by taking the Dinaric branch of I2-P37.2 as representing I2-P37.2 as a whole.

Instead, you need to walk back along the I2-P37.2 tree until you get to the root. At that point, you will have extrapolated the approximate geographic branching location of the two major branches using a formula that looks like: (((Dinaric+Disles)+Isles)+NF+F)+(M26+(Western+Alpine)). To me, it looks like the greatest diversity of the (((Dinaric+Disles)+Isles)+NF+F) branch is France, considering that 2 of the 3 components are in France, and the third has a huge geographic range that includes France. The (M26+(Western+Alpine)) branch similarly has the greatest diversity in France or Germany with some certainty. So, a wiser guess would probably be France or somewhere nearby for the P37.2 branch. Doing a similar calculation for L35+ gets you to a similar area, maybe Germany or nearby. So, unless better data comes in to contradict this, we're probably looking a branching location in France, Germany, or nearby, rather than the Balkans.
 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

latest map of where I2a-din began
 
latest map of where I2a-din began

What is the original source? It's a bit difficult to read, but looks within reason if I'm reading it correctly.
 

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