Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

[Bodin]

First : prove that Dubrovčani ( or Zadrani ) ever called themselves Croats and that they were Croats . Second : Illyrians lived egzactly
in today Dalmatia , Albania was mixed Illyro -Thracian aeria . Third : prove Sarmathians were Scythian branch . Four : it is scientificaly accepted that only ruling cast of Ostrogoths went to Italy while people stayed on Balkans where they lived before 496 - that is why I1 is so high in Serbs and Croats . Fifth : prove Croats were Slavicized before ariving to Balkan - yes they speacked Slavic languague , but they archeology is totaly diferent than Slavic

 

[Bodin]

No, Croats and Serbs are different nations, pay attention to word nation, but Croats and Serbs are from same origin, but two different tribes, very similar...but today have different states, just like Norge and Swedish people

Anyway...I'm dalmatian Croatian

This is very good explanation

 

[Devils Advocate]

are we talking about the Dalmatians here or Croatia? Because Dalmatians have been in the balkans as long as the albanians, I'm not sure the closeness of their languages, but they are surely an illyrian tribe. I'd believe part of todays Croatia are slavs, while there rest are slavinized dalmatians.

You'll have to excuse me if I've offended anyone with my thinking.

 

[zanipolo]

are we talking about the Dalmatians here or Croatia? Because Dalmatians have been in the balkans as long as the albanians, I'm not sure the closeness of their languages, but they are surely an illyrian tribe. I'd believe part of todays Croatia are slavs, while there rest are slavinized dalmatians.

You'll have to excuse me if I've offended anyone with my thinking.

The biggest "illyrian tribe" was the Dalmatians, followed by the Liburnians . these people where different from each other but recognised in the ancient and modern worlds as Illyrian. There is a possibility ( recent studies), that illyrian represents a linguistic ( maybe even a loose confederation ) and not a cultural group of tribes similar to what celtic was in the ancient times

 

[Eldritch]

They obviously are since haplogroup percentages match.

 

[Eldritch]

The fact that they probably have the highest I2a1b + R1a in the region is enough to say they're among the most Slavic Balkan nations.

 

[Gosh]

The question above has always been talked about when visiting croatian friends/families. The arguements range from being forced to become slavic or not. An alphabet ( slovenians as well) which has always been Latin based instead of Cyrillic based. A religion from the west roman empire - Catholic instead of the East Roamn Empire - Orthodox.

Anyway after reading many books, I decided to ask the question to the slavs in this forum. Link below is interesting

Croats are pure Slavs but their name isn't Slavic. They've got them from some non-slavic tribe from the east.

BTW cyrillic was the main script in the southern part of Croatia (Dalmatia) although they were Catholics!

 

[GloomyGonzales]

The genetic structure of Western Balkan populations based on autosomal and haploid markers. K. Tambets¹, L. Kovacevic^1,2,3, D. Primorac⁴, G. Lauc⁵, A. Leskovac⁶, Z. Jakovski⁷, K. Drobnic⁸, S. Kovacevic⁹, T. Bego¹⁰, E. Metspalu¹¹, D. Marjanovic^2,5, R. Villems^1,11 1) Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia; 2) Institute for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina; 3) Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Sarajevo, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina; 4) University Center of Forensic Science, Split, Croatia; 5) Genos doo, Zagreb, Croatia; 6) Vinca Institute of Nuclear Sciences, Belgrade, Serbia; 7) Institute of forensic medicine, criminology and medical deontology and Medical Faculty, University of "St. Cyril and Methodious", Skopje, Republic of Macedonia; 8) Faculty for Justice and Security, Ljubljana, Slovenia; 9) Forensic Center, Bozova glavica, Danilovgrad, Montenegro; 10) Faculty of Farmacy, University of Sarajevo, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina; 11) University of Tartu, Tartu, Estonia.

Contemporary inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula belong to several ethnic groups of diverse cultural backgrounds. In this study, three ethnic groups from Bosnia and Herzegovina - Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs - and four other Slavic-speaking Western Balkan populations: Serbians, Croatians, Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia, Montenegrins, and Albanian-speaking Kosovars have been characterized for the genetic variation of 660 000 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms. Genetic structuring of Western Balkan populations has been analyzed in a global context. Comparison of the variation within autosomal and haploid data sets of studied Western Balkan populations revealed their genetic closeness regardless of a genetic system inspected, in particular among the Slavic speakers. Hence, culturally diverse Western Balkan populations are genetically very similar to each other. Only the Kosovars show slight differences both in the variance of autosomal and uniparentally inherited markers from the other populations of the region, possibly also due to their historically strict patrilineality.

 

[how yes no 3]

Celtic?

some interesting data about I2c haplogroup and theory about making of Slavs

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26803-I2c-frequency-and-diversity-maps

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28516-Serbs-and-Croats-origin-from-Germanic-Scirii-and-Hirri

 

[adamo]

I agree with zanipolos first post. No Croats where not originally Slavs they received later Slavic migrations. They're predominantly indigenous to the Balkans or have been there since god knows when. Some people here are saying I2a2 is Slavic or something, I don't think it's Slavic I just think that it followed/moved around with later Slavs that arrived but it was not originally an incoming Slavic genetic marker, it was heavily influenced by Slavs and some subclades may have been deeply culturally mixed with and followed these incoming Slavs to other Slavic areas they allied with and culturally prospered with theses coming R1a men this "making of Slavs" is linked to Ukrainian refuge/ Russian steppes R1a men that poured into Europe and meeting some indigenous balkanian I men in certain locales, this is evident because on any genetic map you look I-M170 and the R-M173 took totally different routes into Europe not even together with the R1 men going around Central Asia and through Russia and the I men from Anatolia to Balkans and then one branch going north etc. the only exception would be I don't know but if I-M170 came through Caucasus and then hugging the Black Sea coast and arriving through Ukraine to Moldova. But even then I don't think the I and R1 even moved during same time period I think I was already in Europe like 25,000 years ago the r1 guys was still in Central Asia crossing the Russian steppes?

 

[adamo]

I think culturally Croats are pure Slavs but the genetics shows they have predominant indigenous element 40% with heavy Slavic influence 30-35% 1a.

 

[Vedun]

Slavic people were different groups, separated by several antique authors (such was Jordanes) as: Antes (current Ukrainians), Sloveni - this is the word from where later artificial form "Slavs" came from, which is a name for only 1 nation; Slovenes & Slovaks (both speak "Sloven-ski" language); a transliteration through Greek and Latin: Σκλαύηνοι (Sklaunvoi; "sklaVENoi") or Sclaueni (lat.) or even Sthlaueni (transmutation of kl into soft TL)) and Veneti. (also check the cultures among "Amber road" ).

The word SkloVen (and later transmutation of Sloven) derives from 2 different tribes of Slavic people: 1) Herodotus's Skolotoi (a greek transliteration, transmutation of Slavic Sokoloti or Sokoli (Falcons) this is "Scythian" (another form of Slavic Sokoli(current Ukrainians; of the tribe Antes) was Scythian or Skitian; Skot; catt-le; Kot; cat; skotiti; "kotiti", "kotati"; "to turn around" (like a cat on the floor; giving a birth (in the animal kingdom). and 2) Ven which is "Venet".
When the Antes were seeking Venetic brides in the west from 1-9th century their descendants called themselves "Skloveni" ("scythian venetic" people around Danube; Donava (which was intentionally named after Russian river "Don")...
With other words; the patrimonial (tribes, groups) with marker R1a1a were arriving to the territories with the I2 haplo groups.

 

[Dalmat]

Croats are pure Slavs but their name isn't Slavic. They've got them from some non-slavic tribe from the east.

BTW cyrillic was the main script in the southern part of Croatia (Dalmatia) although they were Catholics!

you are funny guy

 

[Gosh]

why do you think so? Try to explain.

 

[albanopolis]

Never take Wikipedia seriously. It is written by those who support official history. Propaganda tool ...

iapodos said in short how things really are.

Who are Croats?

Well, some are croatised Serbs, some croatised Vlahs or Romanians, Goths, Celtcs, Sarmatians, Avars, and so on, and so on...

None of the above! They are croatised Illyrians! If you want to read history! So Croats are mixture of Illyrian with slavs. Croatians have known this for a while. There was a time when they called themselves Illirci.

 

[Dalmat]

why do you think so? Try to explain.

Cyrilics was never main script, not even close, it was Glagolithic, until around 16.th century., and from there on we were bi-literal, Glagolitic/Latin

There was a small influction of semi-cyrilic script called (H)Arvatica(Croatica), or Bosančica(Bosnica), which was fusion of Glagolitic and Cyrillic script, but that was rather short period

Glagolitic script remained in use until 19.th century, when it was completely replaced with latin.


In fact the oldest Croatian records and scripts come almost always written in Glagolitic, and all of them are mostly from Dalmatia, from 1000 of them, only one was written in Arvatica


Also Hrvat has meanings in our language, and 2 most probable solutions are:

Hrbat-mountain chain, makes sense, as we actually live on mountain chain
Hrvati se- to wrestle, fight, could designate those of fighting elite, Hrvati-those who fight, or nobility in middle ages


While Srb has no meaning in your language as I am aware of, closest thing would be Serf

 

[Sile]

i have seen croatian people, many of them look germanic. i heard they have austrian ancestor. i dont believe they are mostly slavic as like serbian people

Croatians are a few centuries older than Austrians

 

[Gosh]

Cyrilics was never main script, not even close, it was Glagolithic, until around 16.th century., and from there on we were bi-literal, Glagolitic/Latin

Thatžs not true for the region of southern Dalmatia. A large parts of Dalmatian coast were under the rule of Byzant long after south Slavs came there.

There was a small influction of semi-cyrilic script called (H)Arvatica(Croatica), or Bosančica(Bosnica), which was fusion of Glagolitic and Cyrillic script, but that was rather short period

it is a fake story made by your "scientists" which wanted to separate Croats from Serbs as much as it possible (and even more). Your "Harvatica" and "Bosnica" are just a small variation of the main church-slavonic script. According to you, every village could have its own script.

Glagolitic script remained in use until 19.th century, when it was completely replaced with latin.

Glagolic script existed, that's not a problem. But, be so nice to search for documents from southern Dalmatia. Can we see what's the main language of Dubrovnik (except italian latin, of course)

In fact the oldest Croatian records and scripts come almost always written in Glagolitic, and all of them are mostly from Dalmatia, from 1000 of them, only one was written in Arvatica

what's this?
Can you explain, what's the difference between "croatian" and "mainstream" cyrillic? Can you give a source which will prove that medieval Croats called that script as "Croatian cyrillic"?

Also Hrvat has meanings in our language, and 2 most probable solutions are:

Hrbat-mountain chain, makes sense, as we actually live on mountain chain
Hrvati se- to wrestle, fight, could designate those of fighting elite, Hrvati-those who fight, or nobility in middle ages

it is just a hypothesis, nothing else. My own opinion is that Croats has name from Iranian language. But Croats (as ethnicity) are Slavs, no doubt.
Something like this:

While Srb has no meaning in your language as I am aware of, closest thing would be Serf

To be honest, I didn't understand you very well about this. Why Russian language have to have word for Serbs?

 

[Slavonac]

Cyrilics was never main script, not even close, it was Glagolithic, until around 16.th century., and from there on we were bi-literal, Glagolitic/Latin

There was a small influction of semi-cyrilic script called (H)Arvatica(Croatica), or Bosančica(Bosnica), which was fusion of Glagolitic and Cyrillic script, but that was rather short period

Glagolitic script remained in use until 19.th century, when it was completely replaced with latin.


In fact the oldest Croatian records and scripts come almost always written in Glagolitic, and all of them are mostly from Dalmatia, from 1000 of them, only one was written in Arvatica


Also Hrvat has meanings in our language, and 2 most probable solutions are:

Hrbat-mountain chain, makes sense, as we actually live on mountain chain
Hrvati se- to wrestle, fight, could designate those of fighting elite, Hrvati-those who fight, or nobility in middle ages


While Srb has no meaning in your language as I am aware of, closest thing would be Serf

Im Croatian and I have to say you dont speak truth because you are aproaching this with emotions. Cyrilics WAS MAIN script of Dalmatians in middle ages(glagoljica was mainly on islands) and it was called BOSANICA or BOSANČICA never Harvatica(which you made up).

To all in this discussion Croatia should be devided in few parts Slavonia, Dalmatia, Zagorje or discussion of genetics have no sence. Differences between these regions are so big that you could consider them as little countries. These lands were long time parts of different kingdoms and they are culturally not similar.

Italians influence- Dalmatia
German and Magyar influence- Zagorje, Slavonia

I dont even think originaly Croatians were I2a1 but maybe some other and that minory had bigger influence over majority. And every connecting between modern nation or ethnicity with haplogruops are non sence if you try to say nation is pure one haplogruop.

 

[Vedun]

Of course they were always Slavs. Horovati or Horvati and their relatives Sorbati or Sorbi or Srbi. (transmutation of H into S and B into V). They were Hribati or Gorovati or Horovati & from Gore (mountains) / Hrbti - chrbát (back; rursus) in area around Karpati / Carpathian mountains...