Germanic and Proto-Slavic

Regarding Proto-Balto-Slavic, I am not sure. The problem is that it's very difficult to estimate when such early or "deep" split-up events happened because there's few signature terms to time this (mainly words that must have entered into vocabulary at a certain stage because they obey or do not obey to certain sound laws). Generally, it's pretty clear that amongst the living language families, the Germanic languages are closest to the Baltic- and Slavic languages, but when Pre-Germanic and Pre-Balto-Slavic diverged from each other is very hard to estimate. As a rule of thumb, the changing rate of languages is not homogenous: languages can exhibit few changes across comparably long stretches, but have considerable changes in relatively short time.

One "signature innovation" if you will of Balto-Slavic is the change Initial Gh to Z. I gave multiple examples of that above. When did this change happen? Very hard to say, in my opinion. It also stands to reason that not all Balto-Slavic sound laws did occur simultaneously, so we might be talking about a relatively long "Balto-Slavic stage".

Regarding the differences between Latvian and Lithuanian, as well as the (extinct) West-Baltic languages (ie, Old Prussian), there are indeed some considerable differences there (if you give me some time, I can work out some demonstrable evidence of that). But, I think it's absolutely conceivable to argue that the splitup of the Baltic languages occured earlier than the split-up of the Slavic languages.
 
This theme is Ouroboros ...

Elaborate? :eek:

If by "Ouroboros" you mean "endless", let me derefer you to the "Celts of Iberia" thread in "European Culture & History". This thread has not even one finished page. :LOL:
 
Yes, if you could, explain about the changes in Baltic languages! (that can be a separate topic)
Regarding Gh to Z - in Latvian it is correct, but in Lithuanian the chagne to seems to be from Gh to Ž (pronounced as Zh)
Goose - žąsis, (stock)yard žardas [old word] [or modern] gardas, which must have be borrowed from Germanic languages latter)
 
After many countless hours and documents, the conclusion is

1- that the goths where on the east of the vistula - tribe was the Gythones

2- the venedi where never anywhere away for the coastal area and whereonly on the baltic sea .

3- the slavs where not in central europe until after 400Ad

4- Jonanes is ethically wrong in his naming of tribes

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/romanempire/Sarmatia.html

The venedi only occupied the coast from memel to vilna , which is eastern prussia to estonia through courland and livonia
They could only speak a baltic or finnic language and disappeared around 300AD


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg

On the right bank are the Gythones. It would not be surprising to find Goths there too, but if the Gythones are Danzigers, they must have extended to Vistula Spit. East of them were the Venedae, south of whom were the Galindae (one of the Prussian tribes). The Venedae therefore must have been the coastal Estonians, Western Baltic ancestral speakers.
 
link below on proto- slavic and proto-baltic as well as proto-germanic

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...esnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q&f=false


confusion by jordanes
Jordanes
Sixth Century historian Jordanes makes two references the Aesti in his book "The Origins and the Deeds of the Goths", which was a treatment of Cassiodorus' longer book (which no longer survives) on the history of the Goths. The first quote places the Aestii beyond the Vidivarii, on the shore of the Baltic: "But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean." The next quote concerns the subjugation of the Aesti by Hermanaric, king of the Gothic Greuthungi: "This ruler also subdued by his wisdom and might the race of the Aesti, who dwell on the farthest shore of the German Ocean" History of Latvia This article is part of a series Ancient Latvia Kunda culture Narva culture Corded Ware culture Amber Road and Aesti Baltic Finns: Livonians, Vends Latgalians, Curonians, Selonians, Semigallians

Surely the aesti are on the coast , yet jordanes calls the venedi ............Vidivani
Maps and other writes have venedi next to the aesti

He later say venethi for central lands north of with the sklavenians and antes.

Clearly as per the roman map shows, there was 2 different venedi and venethi - different people
as well as adriatic veneti and brittany veneti
 
Sorry, I've been caught up by other things as I am quite busy in the background. I would like to make a few short comments, however.

Yes, if you could, explain about the changes in Baltic languages! (that can be a separate topic)
Regarding Gh to Z - in Latvian it is correct, but in Lithuanian the chagne to seems to be from Gh to Ž (pronounced as Zh)
Goose - žąsis, (stock)yard žardas [old word] [or modern] gardas, which must have be borrowed from Germanic languages latter)

Yes, I'm going to address the changes later. I think I'm going to post it in here, however, because I think it is relevant in regard for the timing of when Proto-Slavic was spoken.

After many countless hours and documents, the conclusion is

1- that the goths where on the east of the vistula - tribe was the Gythones

2- the venedi where never anywhere away for the coastal area and whereonly on the baltic sea .

3- the slavs where not in central europe until after 400Ad

4- Jonanes is ethically wrong in his naming of tribes

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/romanempire/Sarmatia.html

The venedi only occupied the coast from memel to vilna , which is eastern prussia to estonia through courland and livonia
They could only speak a baltic or finnic language and disappeared around 300AD


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg

On the right bank are the Gythones. It would not be surprising to find Goths there too, but if the Gythones are Danzigers, they must have extended to Vistula Spit. East of them were the Venedae, south of whom were the Galindae (one of the Prussian tribes). The Venedae therefore must have been the coastal Estonians, Western Baltic ancestral speakers.

Sorry, I think you are pushing things here a little. First off, the map showing Ptolemy's Germania is not the most accurate one. I would personally suggest, in regard for the Venedi is to actually read in Ptolemy's Geography itself, specifically the chapter about European Sarmatia. The problem is, however that the localization is a bit vague - it is clear however that Ptolemy places the Venedae at the shores of the Baltic Sea. There is, by the way, one tribe mentioned in that chapter which I ostensibly identify as a potential Slavic tribal name:

The "Savari" may be the same as the later "Severians" ("Severyane" in Russian). Ptolemy places them into the vicinity of the so-called "Riphaean Mountains", which are unfortunately unclear in their localization, however. In any case, the later Severians inhabited an area that roughly corresponds to modern-day northeastern Ukraine (along the Desna river).

Also, although I'd like to refine the timing of Germanic/Proto-Slavic contact a bit more. What I gave was just the rough timeframe. But, more of this later.
 
well let me put some words you won't found in Lexicons

In Greece when we ask someone if he ate a lot, we use
2 phrases

1 is χλαπακιασες xhlapa-liases
the simmilarity of Slavic chleb etc is Northen Greece mainly but we find and elsewere,

the word-virb Chlap as Eat Bread is mostly were Thracians live,

the word is Κολυβα Koluva -Koliva and is connected with soup,
it is an ancient Pre-Christian custom to eat boiled wheat or semolina,
by replace Dental K with dental Ch we have Choluva -> chlap

2 the second is Abakos,
Phrygian word for Bread was Bekos,
the word artos enter Greek culture from Christians, artos means perfect
and has yeast

the bread or pasta that was made by flour is Makaronia
(food of the makarioi - happy or dead)
while living and lameting eat koluva -> chlap
and bread with yeast artos

the connection of Chlap with chleb
as also artos with Brot Bread,
and the ancient Greek virb βροττω (I eat) Vrott-o Brott-o
lead us the Brot-Bread is connected with artos and IE word-bread eat Βροττω
while chlap and Koluva probably change to chleb in slavic and soup in west,
I still don't get why in Greek we find either none connection with rest IE languages either 2 - 3 words same root,

well modern Greek mostly use the word ψωμι psomi for bread
and makaronia for semolina spaggeti, instead of traditional flour pasta,
but word Koliva still exist as the word-virb chlapak-iazo and abakos (tones of food) and bukia (Vrygian Bekos)
 
Sorry, I think you are pushing things here a little. First off, the map showing Ptolemy's Germania is not the most accurate one. I would personally suggest, in regard for the Venedi is to actually read in Ptolemy's Geography itself, specifically the chapter about European Sarmatia. The problem is, however that the localization is a bit vague - it is clear however that Ptolemy places the Venedae at the shores of the Baltic Sea. There is, by the way, one tribe mentioned in that chapter which I ostensibly identify as a potential Slavic tribal name:

The "Savari" may be the same as the later "Severians" ("Severyane" in Russian). Ptolemy places them into the vicinity of the so-called "Riphaean Mountains", which are unfortunately unclear in their localization, however. In any case, the later Severians inhabited an area that roughly corresponds to modern-day northeastern Ukraine (along the Desna river).

Also, although I'd like to refine the timing of Germanic/Proto-Slavic contact a bit more. What I gave was just the rough timeframe. But, more of this later.

I think we need to clarify what was Venethi and venedi

Jordanes states/declares 2 different peoples with similar names

He states venethi at the beginning of the vistula river ( mountains) and then he states the Vidivarii at the delta of the vistula ( baltic sea)
Sixth Century historian Jordanes makes two references the Aesti in his book "The Origins and the Deeds of the Goths", which was a treatment of Cassiodorus' longer book (which no longer survives) on the history of the Goths. The first quote places the Aestii beyond the Vidivarii, on the shore of the Baltic:
"But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean."

Next the map below has the venedi on the baltic and no where else

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg

Jordanes then says
The Vidivarii are described by Jordanes in his Getica as a melting pot of tribes who in the mid-6th century lived at the lower Vistula:[1][2]
Ad litus oceani, ubi tribus faucibus fluenta Vistulae fluminibus ebibuntur, Vidivarii resident ex diversis nationibus aggregati.[3]
Though differing from the earlier Willenberg culture, some traditions were continued,[2] thus the corresponding archaeological culture is sometimes described as the Vidivarian or widiwar stage of the Willenberg culture. The bearers of the Willenberg culture have been associated with a heterogeneous people comprising Vistula Veneti, Goths, Rugii, and Gepids.



then we have goth leader Hermanric
http://books.google.com/books?id=fQ...ved=0CEIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=hermanric&f=false

He marched of the venedi and destroyed them , then marched on there neigbours the aestii and destroyed them. He then incorporated the men of the venedi and aestii into his army.


scholars now say that the venedi on the baltic coast where the old prussians who spoke a baltic language
http://books.google.com/books?id=Cb...d=0CCgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Vidivarii&f=false

We then have the willenberg culture which was the vidivarii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willenberg_culture

...............

I do think as per the roman document the Tabula Peutingeriana, which originated from the 4th century AD,. This document separately mentions the Venethii on the northern bank of the Danube and the Venedi along the Baltic coast.

Only question is the language, to me it must be baltic , if the venedi are old prussians, it must be baltic since there where no slavs in the area at that time for another 300 years ( or more) or it must be gothic since this was the starting point in which the goths left to invade the black sea and later illyria and italy.
This brings me to the east pommerains who where the rugii, they spoke baltic

I cannot see who the pommerians or venedi could be apart from either baltic or gothic people.

In regards to severains. The original naming of serbians was the servians
 
I'm not quite sure where to post my question, but since it involves at least three languages perhaps this place is as good as any.
I'm interested in the origin of the family name "Dupelka". It has a Polish meaning [dupelka= the metathetized version of "pudelka" which= (female) poodle. The male canine being "dupelek".] It is also a river name in the Kaliningrad region of Russia (the old Koenigsberg area) which flows close to the border of this region with Lithuania. It is part of a system of river names nearby with clear Baltic (Lithuanian) meanings, many of which have the basic Baltic term "upe" internalized (and one actually starts with a d- preceding the -upe). So I was wondering if (a) "Dupelka" could be an original Baltic-Lithuanian term for the river (are there other river names in Lithuania ending in -ka?). If not, then (b ) could it be the slavicized version of a Baltic river name like say "dupelis" or sim. Or (3) could it have already borne the name "dupelka" prior to 1945, when the region belonged to Germany? Or are there other explanations? I have checked sonme genealogical sites about the family name, and see that it was used both north and south of the Carpathians.
 
Even if these words entered Slavic vocabulary directly from Latin (which is also conceivable), it is very clear that Common Slavic must have been spoken unexpectedly late (essentially the Roman period), at an earliest 1st century AD, more probably 4th century AD (to account for contact with Gothic / East Germanic peoples).

Unless the colder climate slowed down the mutation rate. :LOL: I say that half joking, but that is what happens with biological mutations. I wonder if heat could have any influence at all on the evolution of human society.
 
Interesting that this thread got revived.

I admit, I probably am going to make a few revisions here with what I originally posted, because I believe it is actually possible to make a case of longer between Germanic and Proto-Slavic peoples, because I think there's a sequence from Proto-Germanic to East Germanic loanwords, reflecting prolonged contact spanning several centuries (circa 1st century AD to 4th century AD).

I'm not quite sure where to post my question, but since it involves at least three languages perhaps this place is as good as any.
I'm interested in the origin of the family name "Dupelka". It has a Polish meaning [dupelka= the metathetized version of "pudelka" which= (female) poodle. The male canine being "dupelek".] It is also a river name in the Kaliningrad region of Russia (the old Koenigsberg area) which flows close to the border of this region with Lithuania. It is part of a system of river names nearby with clear Baltic (Lithuanian) meanings, many of which have the basic Baltic term "upe" internalized (and one actually starts with a d- preceding the -upe). So I was wondering if (a) "Dupelka" could be an original Baltic-Lithuanian term for the river (are there other river names in Lithuania ending in -ka?). If not, then (b ) could it be the slavicized version of a Baltic river name like say "dupelis" or sim. Or (3) could it have already borne the name "dupelka" prior to 1945, when the region belonged to Germany? Or are there other explanations? I have checked sonme genealogical sites about the family name, and see that it was used both north and south of the Carpathians.

An excellent question. Unfortunately, I cannot answer it offhand, and you will need to give me some time to research.
Unless the colder climate slowed down the mutation rate. :LOL: I say that half joking, but that is what happens with biological mutations. I wonder if heat could have any influence at all on the evolution of human society.

I don't think there is any effect on language evolution, but biological evolution is, at much larger timescales, definitely affected by temperature. It's no surprise that the biggest hotspots of biodiversity (rainforests, the great barrier reef, etc.) are all located in warm climates.
 
I'm not quite sure where to post my question, but since it involves at least three languages perhaps this place is as good as any.
I'm interested in the origin of the family name "Dupelka". It has a Polish meaning [dupelka= the metathetized version of "pudelka" which= (female) poodle. The male canine being "dupelek".] It is also a river name in the Kaliningrad region of Russia (the old Koenigsberg area) which flows close to the border of this region with Lithuania. It is part of a system of river names nearby with clear Baltic (Lithuanian) meanings, many of which have the basic Baltic term "upe" internalized (and one actually starts with a d- preceding the -upe). So I was wondering if (a) "Dupelka" could be an original Baltic-Lithuanian term for the river (are there other river names in Lithuania ending in -ka?). If not, then (b ) could it be the slavicized version of a Baltic river name like say "dupelis" or sim. Or (3) could it have already borne the name "dupelka" prior to 1945, when the region belonged to Germany? Or are there other explanations? I have checked sonme genealogical sites about the family name, and see that it was used both north and south of the Carpathians.

Dupelka, sounds Czech to me. Dupelek, you can say about poodle, but only when jocking.
 
Dup - Archaic, meaning To Open

Elka is polish for a girl's name meaning - 'My God is a vow'

:confused::rolleyes:
 
I don't think there is any effect on language evolution, but biological evolution is, at much larger timescales, definitely affected by temperature. It's no surprise that the biggest hotspots of biodiversity (rainforests, the great barrier reef, etc.) are all located in warm climates.

Heat or cold has an influence on biological evolution at any time scale. Viruses and bacteria have also a lower mutation rate at colder temperatures, and we are talking of hours or days, not millennia here. Yet they also affect humans.
 
Other clear cognate between slavic and germanic:
honey is called med in slavic languages.
Now the drink called mead - english, mead - icelandic, met - german and so on is made from a mixture of honey with water put to be fermented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead
To be more clear,in russian the words used for mead and honey are same,med.
 
Other clear cognate between slavic and germanic:
honey is called med in slavic languages.
Now the drink called mead - english, mead - icelandic, met - german and so on is made from a mixture of honey with water put to be fermented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead
To be more clear,in russian the words used for mead and honey are same,med.

Hi, you are correct that this is a cognate, however, this is not a Germanic borrowing into Slavic. Instead, in both language families, the word is descended from Proto-Indo-European. In fact, it is found in several other branches:

- Celtic has Celtiberian "mezu-" Irish "méa", Welsh "medd"
- Baltic has "medus" (in both Latvian and Lithuanian)
- Indo-Iranic has Sanskrit "madhu" (same word in modern Hindi)
- Anatolian has "maddu" (in Luwian)
- Tocharian B has "mit".
- in Greek, the root survives in the word "methysmenos" ("drunk").

What is perhaps interesting here is that the meaning: in Anatolian, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian, the meaning is "honey", whereas in Celtic, Germanic and Greek, the meaning is "mead" instead.
 

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