Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Majority of haplogroup G found in a French Neolithic site

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Majority of haplogroup G found in a French Neolithic site



    Most of male DNA was found to be haplogroup G2a with some I2a. the absence of haplogroup E is intersting


    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...somal-dna.html

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Fascinating. And I agree. The absence of Haplogroup E is interesting, and unexpected.

    What was to be expected (by now, at least), however, is the overt absence of R1b.

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
    270px-Cardial_map.png

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
    270px-Cardial_map.png
    Well, you probably mean Haplogroup J2 there: the absence of J1 can be explained by the fact that it's tied with Semitic peoples - much of it's present-day distribution was probably solely spread by the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate, at least that is my guess. But, J2 is even more mysterious, especially since, as the creator of the blog stated, J2 was definitely present in the natives of the Canary Isles, although much later.

    Anyways, great find there.

    Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least.

  5. #5
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,923
    Points
    20,062
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,062, Level: 43
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 91.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    The good I2a sample gets predicted with 100% certainty by Cullen's Predictor to I2-M26 (current I2a1). That's not surprising--I2-M26 probably has the oldest MRCA of the pre-Neolithic branches of Haplogroup I, meaning that it had likely expanded the most at that time.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least.
    The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained":

    The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

    Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained":
    Yes, the Neolithic theory regarding Haplogroup E is definitely contradicted by this.

    Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.

    On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.
    I think that E in Portugal is mostly the North African EM81

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I think that E in Portugal is mostly the North African EM81
    Hmm, this definitely also raises some questions about the Tartessians...

  10. #10
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,923
    Points
    20,062
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,062, Level: 43
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 91.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.
    How so? I think it's good evidence that the expansions of the surviving subclades of Haplogroup I are Mesolithic and Neolithic, but I don't think it says anything interesting about Haplogroup I origins.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.

    Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.

    Where does G1 come into play ?

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.
    The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.

    Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.
    Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.



    Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).
    currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.

  14. #14
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.
    Yes, but this is relevant exactly how to the Neolithic sites?

  15. #15
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,539
    Points
    325,130
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,130, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 65.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe !

    R1b is indeed Indo-European, not linked to the diffusion of agriculture

    We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

    European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

    The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

    I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

    I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

    Neolithic MtDNA

    In the supplemental data, I counted the following mitochondrial haplogroups among the 29 samples :

    - U => 1 individual
    - U5 => 4 individuals
    - U5b1c => 1 individual
    - K1a => 2 individuals

    - HV0 => 2 individuals
    - H1 => 3 individuals
    - H3 => 3 individuals
    - V => 1 individual

    - J1 => 6 individuals
    - T2b => 2 individuals

    - X2 => 4 individuals


    Among these, I would place the U5, H1, H3 and V as being of Paleolithic European origin (because they are rare or absent from the Middle East), and the rest as Neolithic migrants from the Near/Middle East. This would give us 41% of Paleolithic maternal lineages. It is to be expected that early farmers married girls from the local hunter-gatherer community, rather than the other way round.

    Note the high percentage of X2 (13.8%) which is fairly rare nowadays and is strongly associated with the Caucasus. I have always thought of X2 as the maternal equivalent of G2a, which is why I used the same grey colour for both haplogroups on this website.

    K1a, J1 and T2b are also somewhat typical of the greater Caucasus region, including Anatolia the Pontic steppes. These haplogroups are found as well among Middle Easterners as in Eurasian steppe populations, most certainly due to the exchange of wives across the Caucasus region.

  16. #16
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe ! We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

    The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

    I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

    I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.
    Good points! We also now a strong case that Haplogroup G2a was indeed the haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers. Well, plus haplogroup F, if we take the German LBK site.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registeredTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdrive

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,978
    Points
    14,699
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,699, Level: 36
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 89.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

    The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

    I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

    I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.
    I'm sorry to ask, but aren't you contradicting yourself there: on the one hand, you say that you think that Greek expansion cannot explain the occurence of J/E in northern Europe, but at the same time you mention the absence of all the Haplogroups in Iceland. Wouldn't that suggest that indeed the expansion of the Haplogroups must have been late?

    Also, is there any evidence, archaeologically-speaking of Minoan/Greek expansions in the Bronze Age?

    In my opinion, it's conceivable that the distribution of J2 in Europe is the cumulative effect of Phoenician/Greek and Roman settlements. Specifically, I noticed two issues: the areas where Haplogroup J2 is common roughly matches the expand of the Roman Empire. Seconldy, that there appears to be a peak in southern Iberia which matches the Phoenician settlements (well, there is of course the possibility that the Tartessians had a sizable share of J2, but given how their origins are very obscure, it's hard to say).

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,284
    Points
    26,871
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,871, Level: 50
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 679
    Overall activity: 99.1%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.
    religious groupings of people have nothing to do with genetic migration.

    J2 is
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_j_j2.htm


    E1b1b1 haplogroup is
    initially associated ( during the bronze age) with people from the levant ( phoenicians ) and north africa, these people had sea knowlwedge in the medittearean. Some say they where also the sea peoples. The carthagians where from Phoenician stock.
    http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm

    below is what seems to be the foundation of the haplogroups

    Y (Neohumanid)
    A (M91) Sudanid species
    BT (M42) Pygmid species
    E (M96) Subsaharid subspecies
    E1b1b1 (M35) Meditid race
    F (M89) Paleoasianid subspecies
    G (M201) Caucasid race
    K (M9) Asianid race
    R1 (M173) Eurasid subrace
    LT (Z1) Sindid subrace
    IJ (M429) Magnonid race
    I (M170) Europid subrace
    J (M304) Arabid subrace

  20. #20
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,539
    Points
    325,130
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,130, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 65.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.
    They surely contributed, but I doubt that they are the main source of E and J among Europeans. The Romans are more likely. They expanded throughout Europe, were the richest and most powerful citizens of the empire, getting more women and children than average. If the enslaved men in conquered populations were often barred from having children and Romans took all the women for them (even fathering the children of slaves sometimes), then there could have been an exponential increase in all Italian haplogroups in the empire, especially in places close to Italy where Latin became the dominant language, i.e. Gaul, Iberia and Dacia. All these regions have in common a fairly high percentage of E1b1b and J2 always accompanied by T and J1. The dominant variety of R1b in Italy, R1b-U152 is also one of the most common in Gaul (France, Belgium, South Germany, Switzerland) as well as in southern England, all places heavily settled by the Romans. Until now I considered R1b-U152 as Italo-Celtic, with a strong association with the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. But if E1b1b and J2 spread like a wild fire in a few centuries of Roman domination (just a hypothesis) then there is no reason that Italian R1b shouldn't have as well.

  21. #21
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    6,539
    Points
    325,130
    Level
    100
    Points: 325,130, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 65.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm sorry to ask, but aren't you contradicting yourself there: on the one hand, you say that you think that Greek expansion cannot explain the occurence of J/E in northern Europe, but at the same time you mention the absence of all the Haplogroups in Iceland. Wouldn't that suggest that indeed the expansion of the Haplogroups must have been late?
    No, I am not contradicting myself. I never said that the Greeks progressively moved up to northern Europe. Their haplogroups may have, after mixing with Italian people after settling in South Italy, then mixing with Gauls, then mixing with Germans, etc. so that, after hundreds of generations, only a fraction of the original Greek genes besides the Y-chromosome remained when the carriers of E-J-T haplogroups reached northern Europe.

    I was rather suggesting that E/J spread progressively from the Roman period until modern times by the constant movement of population and intermarriages within Europe. Most people may only move 5 or 10 km away from their birthplace (more since modern transportation), but that is enough to spread haplogroups in every directions on hundreds, then thousands of kilometres as centuries and millennia pass by. The more time passes the more mixed up haplogroups become within a population with open boundaries. The only things that tend to slow down the mixing process are language boundaries and geographic obstacles like seas of high mountains. Nevertheless no obstacle is impassable. Seas are crossed (though more slowly than on land) and languages evolve and get replaced over time.

    To sum up, I think that there were several major migrations of E-J-T from Mesopotamia and the Levant to Anatolia, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. This included the Minoans, Phoenicians and Etruscans. Then the Greeks started setting up colonies from around the Mediterranean (especially South Italy and the southern coast of France as far as Europe is concerned). The Romans further spread E-J-T throughout their empire, and settled particularly heavily in south-eastern France, which had a climate and geography similar to Italy. The descendants of the Romans all over the empire had their own children, who moved in all directions over the centuries, spreading E-J-T around various European countries, and progressively across borders towards northern and eastern Europe, a process that is still ongoing today.

    If this theory is true, we shouldn't find haplogroups E-J-T in northern Europe, including northern France, Germany and Poland during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. It would be unlikely to find E-J-T outside the borders of the Roman Empire (e.g. in Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, North Germany or Poland) before the medieval period. There isn't exactly a wealth of ancient DNA available, but among the results available, the oldest E-J-T in northern Europe is a E1b1b in northern Germany dating from only 800 years ago. All the other results from Germany were haplogroups G2a, I1, I2b, R1a and R1b. Not a single E1b1b, J1, J2 or T before 1200 CE so far. This would be strange if they arrived during the Neolithic or Bronze Age considering that E-J-T represent as much as 16% of German haplogroups today.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    61
    Points
    4,520
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,520, Level: 19
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 130
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    If R1b is going to be found in the Mesolthic area anywhere, where would it be found? The Ukraine or Turkey or elsewhere?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    it would seem that LT is present in italy , especially the eastern alps ( the raetians and ladini )

    http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/LT_Y-DNA.htm

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,284
    Points
    26,871
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,871, Level: 50
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 679
    Overall activity: 99.1%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
    Just a thought.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
    Just a thought.
    could be,
    I did provide a link on T in the alps in another thread and the Ladini are over 75% T.
    To me this means not much movement

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Haplogroup H1 and H3 entered Europe during neolithic
    By spongetaro in forum mtDNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 23-02-13, 16:03
  2. Majority of haplogroup G found in a French Neolithic site
    By spongetaro in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-06-11, 23:19
  3. New site about haplogroup T
    By TurkmenCopur in forum T
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 17-10-10, 22:23
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 15-12-06, 15:50
  5. Whaling nations set for majority
    By Tokis-Phoenix in forum Nature & Environment
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-06-06, 16:12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •