Majority of haplogroup G found in a French Neolithic site

Fascinating. And I agree. The absence of Haplogroup E is interesting, and unexpected.

What was to be expected (by now, at least), however, is the overt absence of R1b.
 
The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
270px-Cardial_map.png
 
The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
View attachment 4839

Well, you probably mean Haplogroup J2 there: the absence of J1 can be explained by the fact that it's tied with Semitic peoples - much of it's present-day distribution was probably solely spread by the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate, at least that is my guess. But, J2 is even more mysterious, especially since, as the creator of the blog stated, J2 was definitely present in the natives of the Canary Isles, although much later.

Anyways, great find there.

Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least. :LOL:
 
The good I2a sample gets predicted with 100% certainty by Cullen's Predictor to I2-M26 (current I2a1). That's not surprising--I2-M26 probably has the oldest MRCA of the pre-Neolithic branches of Haplogroup I, meaning that it had likely expanded the most at that time.
 
Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least. :LOL:

The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained":

The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
 
The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained":

Yes, the Neolithic theory regarding Haplogroup E is definitely contradicted by this.


Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.

On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.
 
Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.

I think that E in Portugal is mostly the North African EM81
 
On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.

How so? I think it's good evidence that the expansions of the surviving subclades of Haplogroup I are Mesolithic and Neolithic, but I don't think it says anything interesting about Haplogroup I origins.
 
I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.

Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.

Where does G1 come into play ?
 
I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.

The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.

Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.

Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).
 
The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.



Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).

currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.
 
currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.

Yes, but this is relevant exactly how to the Neolithic sites?
 
Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe !

R1b is indeed Indo-European, not linked to the diffusion of agriculture

We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

Neolithic MtDNA

In the supplemental data, I counted the following mitochondrial haplogroups among the 29 samples :

- U => 1 individual
- U5 => 4 individuals
- U5b1c => 1 individual
- K1a => 2 individuals

- HV0 => 2 individuals
- H1 => 3 individuals
- H3 => 3 individuals
- V => 1 individual

- J1 => 6 individuals
- T2b => 2 individuals

- X2 => 4 individuals


Among these, I would place the U5, H1, H3 and V as being of Paleolithic European origin (because they are rare or absent from the Middle East), and the rest as Neolithic migrants from the Near/Middle East. This would give us 41% of Paleolithic maternal lineages. It is to be expected that early farmers married girls from the local hunter-gatherer community, rather than the other way round.

Note the high percentage of X2 (13.8%) which is fairly rare nowadays and is strongly associated with the Caucasus. I have always thought of X2 as the maternal equivalent of G2a, which is why I used the same grey colour for both haplogroups on this website.

K1a, J1 and T2b are also somewhat typical of the greater Caucasus region, including Anatolia the Pontic steppes. These haplogroups are found as well among Middle Easterners as in Eurasian steppe populations, most certainly due to the exchange of wives across the Caucasus region.
 
Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe ! We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

Good points! We also now a strong case that Haplogroup G2a was indeed the haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers. Well, plus haplogroup F, if we take the German LBK site.
 
European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

I'm sorry to ask, but aren't you contradicting yourself there: on the one hand, you say that you think that Greek expansion cannot explain the occurence of J/E in northern Europe, but at the same time you mention the absence of all the Haplogroups in Iceland. Wouldn't that suggest that indeed the expansion of the Haplogroups must have been late?

Also, is there any evidence, archaeologically-speaking of Minoan/Greek expansions in the Bronze Age? :unsure:

In my opinion, it's conceivable that the distribution of J2 in Europe is the cumulative effect of Phoenician/Greek and Roman settlements. Specifically, I noticed two issues: the areas where Haplogroup J2 is common roughly matches the expand of the Roman Empire. Seconldy, that there appears to be a peak in southern Iberia which matches the Phoenician settlements (well, there is of course the possibility that the Tartessians had a sizable share of J2, but given how their origins are very obscure, it's hard to say).
 
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.
 
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

religious groupings of people have nothing to do with genetic migration.

J2 is
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_j_j2.htm


E1b1b1 haplogroup is
initially associated ( during the bronze age) with people from the levant ( phoenicians ) and north africa, these people had sea knowlwedge in the medittearean. Some say they where also the sea peoples. The carthagians where from Phoenician stock.
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm

below is what seems to be the foundation of the haplogroups

Y (Neohumanid)
A (M91) Sudanid species
BT (M42) Pygmid species
E (M96) Subsaharid subspecies
E1b1b1 (M35) Meditid race
F (M89) Paleoasianid subspecies
G (M201) Caucasid race
K (M9) Asianid race
R1 (M173) Eurasid subrace
LT (Z1) Sindid subrace
IJ (M429) Magnonid race
I (M170) Europid subrace
J (M304) Arabid subrace
 
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

They surely contributed, but I doubt that they are the main source of E and J among Europeans. The Romans are more likely. They expanded throughout Europe, were the richest and most powerful citizens of the empire, getting more women and children than average. If the enslaved men in conquered populations were often barred from having children and Romans took all the women for them (even fathering the children of slaves sometimes), then there could have been an exponential increase in all Italian haplogroups in the empire, especially in places close to Italy where Latin became the dominant language, i.e. Gaul, Iberia and Dacia. All these regions have in common a fairly high percentage of E1b1b and J2 always accompanied by T and J1. The dominant variety of R1b in Italy, R1b-U152 is also one of the most common in Gaul (France, Belgium, South Germany, Switzerland) as well as in southern England, all places heavily settled by the Romans. Until now I considered R1b-U152 as Italo-Celtic, with a strong association with the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. But if E1b1b and J2 spread like a wild fire in a few centuries of Roman domination (just a hypothesis) then there is no reason that Italian R1b shouldn't have as well.
 

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